Author Topic: New Hurling Championship Format  (Read 2436 times)

manfromdelmonte

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New Hurling Championship Format
« on: May 10, 2017, 08:22:18 AM »
what do people think about the proposal for a round robin stage at the provincial championship stage?

any new format needs to have a slot or two for the tier 2 teams to qualify eg Westmeath, Laois, Kerry, Meath

johnneycool

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Re: New Hurling Championship Format
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2017, 01:39:32 PM »
what do people think about the proposal for a round robin stage at the provincial championship stage?

any new format needs to have a slot or two for the tier 2 teams to qualify eg Westmeath, Laois, Kerry, Meath

Sure who gives a f**k about them.   >:(

manfromdelmonte

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Re: New Hurling Championship Format
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2017, 05:04:31 PM »
what do people think about the proposal for a round robin stage at the provincial championship stage?

any new format needs to have a slot or two for the tier 2 teams to qualify eg Westmeath, Laois, Kerry, Meath

Sure who gives a f**k about them.   >:(
The people who play hurling in those counties?
The current two qualifiers from the round robin and should feed into play third placed teams in a two group four team top tier competition.
Bottom two teams play relegation game. Tough shit to them
It's not long ago Westmeath were beating Dublin in hurling championship

Avondhu star

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Re: New Hurling Championship Format
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2017, 10:12:42 PM »
what do people think about the proposal for a round robin stage at the provincial championship stage?

any new format needs to have a slot or two for the tier 2 teams to qualify eg Westmeath, Laois, Kerry, Meath
Absolute waste of time.
Warning. Don't try this at home unless in the company of a responsible adult

didlyi

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Re: New Hurling Championship Format
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2017, 12:02:10 PM »
Plenty of negativity to change around here. The same people that complain every time a 'weaker' team gets a hiding from a 'top' team. They say why should this happen and its no good to either team. The so called weaker teams are all involved in round robin type systems already and cant complain about the number of games they get to play. Look at the scores  in the Chrsity Ring and Leinster Round robin this  year so far. All competitive tight games against opposition of similar standard. Once any of these teams make the transition to Liam Mc they will most likely get a hiding and the complaining starts again. You just cant please some people in Gaa.

manfromdelmonte

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Re: New Hurling Championship Format
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2017, 04:58:43 PM »
Great game is Cusack Park today

Standard was good.
These teams deserve an avenue to get into the championship proper.

didlyi

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Re: New Hurling Championship Format
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2017, 09:41:42 PM »
With due respects to Meath, they have only just got promoted to div 2a of the league. When tipp beat offaly by a cricket score in the league there was uproar over the gap in standards. Its a shame that Meath are out of hurling for the year in May but in fairness the system allowed them a chance to play in the top championship but hey weren't good enough.

manfromdelmonte

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Re: New Hurling Championship Format
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2017, 06:51:38 AM »
With due respects to Meath, they have only just got promoted to div 2a of the league. When tipp beat offaly by a cricket score in the league there was uproar over the gap in standards. Its a shame that Meath are out of hurling for the year in May but in fairness the system allowed them a chance to play in the top championship but hey weren't good enough.
they still won a game though
some top counties won't win a game, but won't be relegated

Kilkevan

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Re: New Hurling Championship Format
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2017, 04:14:15 PM »
The danger with round robins I fear are dead rubbers. If you have say top two go forward and nothing for third and fourth then you can easily have a situation whereby there is absolutely nothing riding on the last two games in any group.

You might get away with it in terms of 3 v 4 because they may still feel they have pride left to play for, particularly if they're local rivals. 1 v 2 could be a nightmare though as managers would almost certainly feel compelled to pay squad players to avoid injuries and any chance of suspension for later on in the tournament. That's almost a certainty in Leinster where there are a number of tier 2 teams.

This is particularly so when you look at the stupid set up currently with the Leinster round robin where there is no seeding for finishing top. This season Laois finished first and played Wexford, getting hockeyed in the second half, whilst Westmeath finished 2nd and played Offaly, almost beating them. Basically first ended up playing the better team. Similar scenario last year when Westmeath finished top and played Galway, with Offaly second who played Laois  :o. That's ludicrous as second meant, in both years, that you had a better chance of progressing in the next round.

The GAA need to put their thinking caps on on this one. Possibly round robins of four teams, how they work that out with 9 teams in Leinster and 5 in Munster is another day's work, with something at stake for third place as well as first and second. The third placed teams in each group could potentially play qualifiers against each other to get back into the championship proper, thereby removing the dead rubbers in the bottom half of the tables. Then some form of seeding for first and second to avoid that problem there too.

The fourth placed teams could possibly enter a tournament of their own to extend their summer as intercounty hurling finishing for teams in May does nobody any favours. That may devalue the Christy Ring Cup though.

manfromdelmonte

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Re: New Hurling Championship Format
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2017, 05:49:42 PM »
The danger with round robins I fear are dead rubbers. If you have say top two go forward and nothing for third and fourth then you can easily have a situation whereby there is absolutely nothing riding on the last two games in any group.

You might get away with it in terms of 3 v 4 because they may still feel they have pride left to play for, particularly if they're local rivals. 1 v 2 could be a nightmare though as managers would almost certainly feel compelled to pay squad players to avoid injuries and any chance of suspension for later on in the tournament. That's almost a certainty in Leinster where there are a number of tier 2 teams.

This is particularly so when you look at the stupid set up currently with the Leinster round robin where there is no seeding for finishing top. This season Laois finished first and played Wexford, getting hockeyed in the second half, whilst Westmeath finished 2nd and played Offaly, almost beating them. Basically first ended up playing the better team. Similar scenario last year when Westmeath finished top and played Galway, with Offaly second who played Laois  :o. That's ludicrous as second meant, in both years, that you had a better chance of progressing in the next round.

The GAA need to put their thinking caps on on this one. Possibly round robins of four teams, how they work that out with 9 teams in Leinster and 5 in Munster is another day's work, with something at stake for third place as well as first and second. The third placed teams in each group could potentially play qualifiers against each other to get back into the championship proper, thereby removing the dead rubbers in the bottom half of the tables. Then some form of seeding for first and second to avoid that problem there too.

The fourth placed teams could possibly enter a tournament of their own to extend their summer as intercounty hurling finishing for teams in May does nobody any favours. That may devalue the Christy Ring Cup though.
I agree. Seedings need to be introduced
However, that means that counties won't get a favourable draw but it will be almost predetermined.

Kilkevan

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Re: New Hurling Championship Format
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2017, 06:00:11 PM »
I agree. Seedings need to be introduced
However, that means that counties won't get a favourable draw but it will be almost predetermined.

It would be predetermined in so much as first would know they played second etc. It would still have an element of the unknown though in so much as an unexpected team could still top the pile.

johnneycool

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Re: New Hurling Championship Format
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2017, 04:12:05 PM »
With due respects to Meath, they have only just got promoted to div 2a of the league. When tipp beat offaly by a cricket score in the league there was uproar over the gap in standards. Its a shame that Meath are out of hurling for the year in May but in fairness the system allowed them a chance to play in the top championship but hey weren't good enough.

Tipp were top of Div1A (stuffing Dublin along the way)and Offaly managed to survive relegation the last day of Div1B (taking some drubbings along the way) so it was hardly a suprise and TBH I don't recollect too much uproar as Offaly are given a bit more leeway than the likes of Kerry or Westmeath when it comes to these types of defeats. WRT to this part of the league it needs tweaked slightly but nothing major.

Getting from the CR to the glass ceiling of the Leinster round robin/qualifiers is very much an onerous task, just ask Carlow or Antrim who by right should be entered into the AI qualifiers as CR winners this year, but for some reason this aspect of legislation passed at congress hasn't made it beyond the committee room, strange that there was no urgency to do that!!

As for the proposal itself, I'm not sure as there'll be more games between the top counties for sure, but it'll mostly be árse boxing until the final mix up comes to pass as we already see in some of the provincial games, Cork and Tipp was a refreshing change TBH, but that was probably down to Corks desperation to get a win for the confidence. Dublin were hardly do or die on Sunday in Tullamore and IMO we can expect a lot more of that if we don't do away with these twin structures and go for a seeded open draw.

johnneycool

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Re: New Hurling Championship Format
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2017, 09:54:36 AM »
In full;

Proposals for the GAA Hurling Championship 20187-2020

Following the  debate at Congress 2017 on  the  reform of the All-Ireland senior football championship, the Uachtaran and Ard Stiurth6ir asked the Central Competitions Control Committee (CCCC) to examine the current structures for the senior, U-21 and minor hurling championships. In doing so, they identified three  questions that needed to  be addressed:

- might the eight additional matches provided for in the new football championship structure (namely, the round-robin group stage that replaces the existing quarter-final format) draw attention away from and diminish the All-Ireland senior hurling championship?

- do the arrangements for Galway's participation in the Leinster senior, All-Ireland minor and U-21hurling championships best serve the needs of  that county, and of hurling in general?

- do the existing structures best serve the needs of Antrim (or any other Ulster county that might  qualify for the All-Ireland series)  in  the minor and U-21hurling championships?

The Uachtaran and Ard Stiurth6ir held informal discussions with various individuals and units of the Association and reflected on various proposals submitted from committees and individuals over the years. This information was collated and passed to the CCCC to provide a basis for discussion on revised structures for the hurling championships.

The views of the National Hurling Development Committee and An Coiste Bainistfochta were also sought before completion of the proposals that are outlined below.

Based on the feedback received, the CCCC established three obligations that must be met in formulating  its proposals:

    the retention of the provincial senior championships;
    the provision  of additional quality games for  players and spectators;
    any proposal adopted must not have a negative impact on the time available to play club games.

This latter constraint precluded the adoption of various suggested structures that worked well in principle but that did not take cognisance of the length of time required to run off such new competition structures. The proposals, therefore, were formulated -for alllevels of senior hurling - to ensure:

- that significant club-only periods would be maintained between the end of the Allianz hurling leagues and the beginning of the senior championships;

- that August (except for the All-Ireland semi-finals and final) and subsequent months would be left free for club competitions.

The recommendations that follows regarding the Liam Maccarthy Cup have their roots in a proposal first mooted by the HDC in 2012.

This document proposes that the rules governing the All-Ireland senior, U-21and minor championships be temporarily set aside in 2018, 2019 and 2020 to allow the following formats to be the subject of experimentation in the championships of 2018, 2019 and 2020.
Senior Hurling Championship Proposals

 

    Liam Maccarthy Cup

To consist of two provincial championships and a provincial qualifier group (linked to the Leinster and Munster championships).
A.Leinster and Munster Championships Round-Robin Groups

Leinster                         Munster

Dublin                          Clare

Galway                         Cork

Kilkenny                        Limerick

Offaly                          Tipperary

Wexford                        Waterford

    Both provincial championships will be played on a round-robin basis; therefore, there will be five rounds of four matches each.
    Each team will have two  home and two away matches.
    The two teams finishing in the top two places in each group will qualify for their respective provincial final.
    The winners of the provincial finals will qualify for the All-Ireland semi-finals.
    The defeated provincial finalists will qualify for the All-Ireland quarter-finals.
    The third-plac ed teams in both championship groups will remain in the championship (see 'All­ Ireland Quarter-Finals', below).
    The bottom-placed team in the Leinster championship round-robin group will play in the provincial qualifier group in the following year, and will be replaced in th e Leinster championship by the winner of the provincial qualifier in the previous year. Where Kerry (or another Munster team) wins the provincial qualifier, they will play off against the bottom team in the Munster championship round robin. The winner of that play-off game will play in the Munster championship round robin in the following year and the loser will play in the provincial qualifier.

Note: The teams identified, above, as participating in the Leinster and Munster championship round­ robin groups are based on current (i.e. 2017) qualified teams.
B.Provincial Qualifier Group

    In 2018 this group will consist of five teams:

Laois
Westmeath
Kerry
Antrim
Carlow

The eligible teams have been determined by their final positions in the 2017 championships. Laois, Westmeath and Kerry, having finished, respectively, in first, second and third places in the 2017 qualifier, will take three of the provincial qualifier group places in 2018. Meath, having finished bottom of the 2017 qualifier, will be relegated to the 2018 Christy Ring Cup and will be replaced in the 2018 provincial qualifier group by the 2017 Christy Ring Cup winners and runners-up (Antrim  and Carlow).

The winning team of the provincial qualifier group will qualify for a play-off match, on an alternate-year basis, against the third-placed team in the Munster or Leinster championship round-robin group. The play-off winner will progress to the All-Ireland quarter-finals (see table below).

The winning team of the provincial qualifier group will also be promoted to the Leinster championship round-robin group for the following year and will be replaced in the provincial qualifier group by the bottom-placed team in the Leinster championship round-robin group. However, where Kerry (or another Munster team) wins the provincial qualifier, they will play off against the bottom team in the Munster championship round robin. The winner of that play-off game will play in the Munster championship round robin in the following year and the loser will play in the provincial qualifier.

The bottom-placed team in the provincial qualifier group will be relegated to the Christy Ring Cup and replaced by the winners of that competition.

The provincial qualifier group will be played on a round-robin basis, and matches will be played during the same period as those of the Munster and Leinster championship round-robin groups.

 

    All-Ireland  Quarter-Finals
    As noted above, the defeated provincial championship finalists will qualify for the All-Ireland quarter-finals.
    As noted above also, the third-placed teams in both the Leinster and Munster championship groups will remain in the championship, with a pathway open to them to qualify for the All­ Ireland quarter-finals. The quarter-final pairings will be determined on a rolling two-year-cycle basis, as follows:

 

YEAR l
   

YEAR 2

Play-off match

3R0 -pl aced team in Munster championship group

V

Winner of provincial qualifier group (home- venue advantage)

 

Quarter-final 1

Winner of above play-off match

V

Defeated Leinster provincial finalist

 

Quarter-final 2

3rd-placedteam in Leinster championship group

V

Defeated Munster provincial finalist*
   

Play-off match

3rd-placed team in Leinster championship group

V

Winner of provincial qualifier group (home- venue advantage)

 

Quarter-final 1

Winner of above play-off match

V

Defeated Munster provincial finalist

 

Quarter-final 2

3rd-placed team in Munster championship group

V

Defeated Leinster provincial finalist*

 

*To preserve and enhance the importance of the provincial championships, home-venue advantage in the  quarter-finals should be granted to  the  beaten provincial finalists.

 
D.All-Ireland Semi Finals and Final

    The Munster  and Leinster champions will be kept apart in the semi-finals.
    Provincial champions cannot meet the team they defeated in their provincial final in the All­ Ireland semi-final.
    Subject to the provisions of point 1 above, repeat pairings will be avoided in the All-Ireland semi­ finals. A draw will take place, if necessary, to avoid repeat pairings.
    The All-Ireland semi-final winners will meet in the All-Ireland final.

 
Note: Provincial Championships and Provincial Qualifier Group

While, in some respects, it was considered preferable that the provincial qualifier group-winner be allowed to enter the Leinster or Munster championship group in the same year, the CCCC considered that the scheduling impact of such a provision on the playing of club games would be contrary to the core principles of recent Congress Rule and Central Council scheduling changes (i.e. to create significant time periods for club-only activity) and would all but eliminate the possibility of having a club interlude period for the counties in the provincial qualifier group at the end of the Allianz leagues.

For this reason, the winner of the provincial qualifier group enters a play-off against either the third­ placed team in the Munster or Leinster championship round robin group, which provides the right to play in the All Ireland quarter-finals. Also, the winner of the provincial qualifi er group earns the opportunity to parti cipate in the Munster or Leinster championship in the following year.

 
II.Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard Cups (based on 2017 finishing positions) Christy Ring Cup (eight teams):

Armagh, Derry, Down, Kildare, London, Mayo, Meath, Wicklow .

 

Nicky Rackard Cup (eight teams):

Donegal, Leitrim or War wickshire,Longford, Louth, Monaghan, Roscommon, Sligo, Tyrone.

 

Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard Cups to be played as follows:

    There will be two round-robin groups of four teams each.
    The round-robin phase will be completed over no more than four weekends (i.e. t hree rounds plus one gap weekend).
    Group sections to be played on a tw o-year cycle; each county will have at least one home game per year; where feasible, the  home/away arrangements  will be reversed in the second year.
    The top-placed teams in each group will play each other in their respective final.
    The winner of the Christy Ring Cup will be promoted to the provincial qualifier group for the following season.
    The winner of the Nicky Rackard Cup will be promoted to the Chri sty Ring Cup for the following season.
    The bottom-placed team in each group will meet in a relegation play-off; the loser will be relegate d to the next-lowest grade for the following year.

 

Ill. Lory Meagher Cup

Four teams participate:  Cavan, Fermanagh, Lancashire and either Leitrim or Warwickshire.

    There will be a single round-robin group of all four teams.
    Each team will play at least one home match.
    The two top-placed teams will play in the final.
    The winner will be promoted to the Nicky Rackard Cup for the following year.

 
IV.All-Ireland U-21 Hurling Championship

The idea of an open draw for the competition was discussed. However, it was considered that an open­ draw format would undermine many of the benefits of the existing U-21 championship. It was also noted that the possibility of scheduling Wednesday-evening games would likely be lost in an open­ draw format (due to potential travel distances), which could have a significant knock-on effect on counties'_ability to  plan club fixtures.

It was considered, too, that an open-draw format would probably require a seeding system if the competition were to remain competitive; it was also pointed out that none of the other main championships are organised on an open-draw basis.

Notwithstanding the above, the current structure - whereby Galway enters the All-Ireland semi-final without having played a game, and in which the Ulster champions have participated in only one All­ Ireland final since the competition was inaugurated in 1964, despite having a guaranteed semi-final spot for much of its history - is not sustainable.
Proposal

The proposal is for Galway and any Ulster teams of sufficient strength to be accommodated in the Leinster championship. In such a scenario, the Leinster and Munster champions would qualify directly for the All-Ireland final; there would, therefore, be no All-Ireland semi-finals at this level. This format would be a significant help in creating additional time in the calendar to achieve proper scheduling of the U-21 hurling championship in the summer months (running alongside the senior provincial championships). It would also have minimum impact on club activity.

 
V.Minor Hurling Championship

It is recommended that changes be made to the existing structure of the All-Ireland minor hurling championships to  better serve the  needs of Galway, Antrim and Ulster.

 
Proposal

    The provincial championships to be played as at p resent ; the Leinster and Munster champions to qualify for the All-Ireland  semi-fi nals.
    A round-robin All-Ireland series to  be  organised to  produce two  more All-Ireland semi-finalists.

The three participating teams will be Galway and the defeated Leinster and Munster finalists. In the event of teams finishing on equal points at the end of this round-robin series, their placings will be determined by the following tie-break devices, in following order of application:

(i) score difference, i.e. subtracting the total scores-against from the scores-for;

(ii) highest total scores achieved; (iii) highest total goals scored.

Note: Where all three teams finish level on points and cannot be separated by the tie-break devices outlined in (i), (ii) and (iii) above, one team will go forward through the drawing of lots, and a play­ off will be held between the two remaining teams.

Consideration should also be given to the participation of Antrim, and possibly of one other Ulster county, in the Leinster minor championship. If the proposals outlined in this document  are accepted in principle, further discussion should take place with the HDC and the Leinster and Ulster Councils on how best to  accommodate this.

This discussion should also encompass a review of the Celtic Challenge in the context of the above proposals to ensure that it continues to provide an appropriate pathway for developing counties. The discussion with the HDC should specifically consider the issue of whether counties that participate in the restructured minor hurling championship outlined above should also participate in the Celtic Challenge, and, if so, for which counties it would be most appropriate to do so.




AZOffaly

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Re: New Hurling Championship Format
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2017, 11:04:43 AM »
Does this mean Galway will actually get to play in Galway?

johnneycool

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Re: New Hurling Championship Format
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2017, 11:20:56 AM »
Does this mean Galway will actually get to play in Galway?

Depends on under who's jurisdiction these round robin "provincial" games are run. I'd suggest that the Munster Council and the Leinster Council will still be sending the lads to man the turnstiles and with Leinster's intransigence in the past would need addressed but you'd have to hope so.

There is a pathway of progression for the developing counties but its a pretty damn narrow one.

In terms of U21 and minor it seems Antrim (and possibly another Ulster county) merge into Leinster which has its good aspects, but I'd hate to see the Ulster Council be allowed to abdicate even more responsibility towards hurling as it currently is doing very little at these age groups and below.