Elections North and South

Started by Farrandeelin, April 18, 2019, 04:09:48 PM

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general_lee

Quote from: Keyser soze on May 23, 2019, 11:29:23 AM
The condescension from some posters in this thread is making me lol.

Moving the moral high ground to Olympus ... and beyoooooooonnnnnddddd
Aye it's shocking. But again it's just shinner bashing no matter how people try to dress it up. Let's look at Naomi Long, did she not as an MP vote in favour of airstrikes in the Middle East? yet people are trying to decide between her and Eastwood. Realistically, if you're opposed to violence it's a no brainer...

Taylor

Quote from: Orior on May 23, 2019, 01:17:51 PM
Quote from: Taylor on May 23, 2019, 01:01:37 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on May 23, 2019, 12:58:44 PM
I really can't decide where to put my number 2.

Not a euphemism.

Hard to tell who has the better chance at seat 3 between Long and Eastwood. Alot of SF voters I know transferring to Long.

Still undecided but considering 1. Long  2. Anderson  3. Eastwood.

You're not swayed by Jim 'straight talking' Allister?

A tosser of the highest order. Would you ever tire of punching his face?

currychip

Quote from: smelmoth on May 23, 2019, 09:11:53 AM
Quote from: currychip on May 22, 2019, 03:57:38 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 22, 2019, 01:53:08 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 22, 2019, 12:51:46 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 22, 2019, 12:14:44 PM
Given that an MEP will do zero to advance the case of Nationalism or Unionism does anyone want to make the case why there 1st preference will be the top performer in the role if elected?

SDLP are part of PES who have been vocal on a range of issues but importantly, migrant issues and workers rights. They also fully believe in the European project.
Others sit with Marxists and Communists. That's for them to explain.

All accepted and Colum could hold his own. Don't think he is in Long's league plus Alliance's group whilst smaller is the power broker in the current parliament under Verhofstadt (that could change) and the Uk representation of that group is likely to increase with the remain vote going to Lib Dems. We need our voice inside that group

You "Don't think he is in Long's league".  Wha?  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support that.  Both articulate their party position in engaging ways, with Long for me maybe being a bit preachy.

In debate I would consider Long superior. Whilst ultimately that is subjective I would consider in the round, her calmness, articulacy and ability to react intelligently to live events.
In instinct I would judge her more politically savvy. She is managing an upward trajectory. Colin isn't flying. At best he is falling with style. His failure to grasp Mike TV's initiative, the Fianna Fáil fudgy thing, the failure to grasp the electoral importance of Hanna and the lack of clear positions on some key areas can all be cited.
In resilience I would judge Long to be superior. The shinners are gunning (in the metaphorical sense) for Colum and they don't give him an easy ride. This is nothing compared to what Long personally and Alliance generally have to withstand from PUL intelligentsia

Anyway  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support your claim that Long is preachy?

As you say, there is an element of subjectiveness about comparing Long and Eastwood or most politiians.  I certainly don't consider her a better debater.  He has the abilities that you attribute to her.  I don't recall him being any less calm than her.  He's no less articulate and, for me, quicker with the witicisms.

Her party leader role is much easier than his.  He inherited a party in decline, then a political situation going into decline.  There is a bit of a mood of "one is as bad as the others" viz nationalists and unionists, hence Alliance get an easy ride for being agnostic about nationality.  I don't want the person who represents me to be agnostic.  I am a nationalist and I want someone to articulate that.  Not in a way that denigrates unionists, or seeks to raise tensions, or tells them their days are numbered.  For me Alliance is a bit of "whatever you are having yourself", which is an easy position to play.

On the preachy - here's an example.  Friday 11th May there was a debate on RU involving Eastwood, Long and Jim Allister.  At the offset there was a discussion between Eastwood and Allister about how much NI gets from the EU (Eastwood) and how much UK puts in (Allister).  They both emphasised their points.  First comment from Long was "here we go, Punch and Judy politics".  We know she means, "we are above this arguing from the great unwashed like you".  For then on, her and Allister had a ding dong.  I don't want my political reps to not challenge Allister, the opposite in fact.  That is what Eastwood did, but not in an ignorant or uncouth way, but stridently.  I was a bit pissed off at her sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, which seems to be her MO.

Owenmoresider

Quote from: magpie seanie on May 23, 2019, 12:03:17 PM
Had picked up a bit yesterday on Twitter about Saoirse McHugh of the Green Party and how well she did on RTE's Primetime debate for the Midlands North West Euro constituency so decided to throw on RTE player when I went home from work yesterday. It didn't disappoint. She was brilliant. Cut the legs off that odious shyster Casey repeatedly and presented a common sense, well thought out policy platform. Further research I've done on her has proved equally impressive. It's a long shot but her support is growing. I think she's exactly the type of politician we need. I'll be voting #1 for her tomorrow. I think people in that constituency should strongly consider doing likewise.
Won't be giving her any preference, nothing against her personally but the Greens and their fellow travellers are anathema to me. Won't take too long to fill in the European ballot paper though, about 6/7 strokes and that'll be it.

smelmoth

Quote from: currychip on May 23, 2019, 01:47:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 23, 2019, 09:11:53 AM
Quote from: currychip on May 22, 2019, 03:57:38 PM
Quote from: smelmoth link=topic=29178.msg1897960#msg1897960 date=1558b529588
Quote from: trailer on May 22, 2019, 12:51:46 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 22, 2019, 12:14:44 PM
Given that an MEP will do zero to advance the case of Nationalism or Unionism does anyone want to make the case why there 1st preference will be the top performer in the role if elected?

SDLP are part of PES who have been vocal on a range of issues but importantly, migrant issues and workers rights. They also fully believe in the European project.
Others sit with Marxists and Communists. That's for them to explain.

All accepted and Colum could hold his own. Don't think he is in Long's league plus Alliance's group whilst smaller is the power broker in the current parliament under Verhofstadt (that could change) and the Uk representation of that group is likely to increase with the remain vote going to Lib Dems. We need our voice inside that group

You "Don't think he is in Long's league".  Wha?  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support that.  Both articulate their party position in engaging ways, with Long for me maybe being a bit preachy.

In debate I would consider Long superior. Whilst ultimately that is subjective I would consider in the round, her calmness, articulacy and ability to react intelligently to live events.
In instinct I would judge her more politically savvy. She is managing an upward trajectory. Colin isn't flying. At best he is falling with style. His failure to grasp Mike TV's initiative, the Fianna Fáil fudgy thing, the failure to grasp the electoral importance of Hanna and the lack of clear positions on some key areas can all be cited.
In resilience I would judge Long to be superior. The shinners are gunning (in the metaphorical sense) for Colum and they don't give him an easy ride. This is nothing compared to what Long personally and Alliance generally have to withstand from PUL intelligentsia

Anyway  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support your claim that Long is preachy?

As you say, there is an element of subjectiveness about comparing Long and Eastwood or most politiians.  I certainly don't consider her a better debater.  He has the abilities that you attribute to her.  I don't recall him being any less calm than her.  He's no less articulate and, for me, quicker with the witicisms.

Her party leader role is much easier than his.  He inherited a party in decline, then a political situation going into decline.  There is a bit of a mood of "one is as bad as the others" viz nationalists and unionists, hence Alliance get an easy ride for being agnostic about nationality.  I don't want the person who represents me to be agnostic.  I am a nationalist and I want someone to articulate that.  Not in a way that denigrates unionists, or seeks to raise tensions, or tells them their days are numbered.  For me Alliance is a bit of "whatever you are having yourself", which is an easy position to play.

On the preachy - here's an example.  Friday 11th May there was a debate on RU involving Eastwood, Long and Jim Allister.  At the offset there was a discussion between Eastwood and Allister about how much NI gets from the EU (Eastwood) and how much UK puts in (Allister).  They both emphasised their points.  First comment from Long was "here we go, Punch and Judy politics".  We know she means, "we are above this arguing from the great unwashed like you".  For then on, her and Allister had a ding dong.  I don't want my political reps to not challenge Allister, the opposite in fact.  That is what Eastwood did, but not in an ignorant or uncouth way, but stridently.  I was a bit pissed off at her sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, which seems to be her MO.

I agree with a lot of this. Can't comment on the RU debate that I didn't hear. I completely disagree with 2 points though.

Alliance do not get an easy ride. The Twitter responses to Long can be dismissed as keyboard warrior stuff but they give an insight into the vitriol Alliance can and do face. That on occasion is manifested physically. It's a very Belfast thing but Alliance's presence has been very Belfast focused but is starting to change

Secondly I cannot agree that as a nationalist that you need to represented by a nationalist on roads, education, tax, economics, health etc etc etc. Alliance are not a case of "whatever you are heaving yourself" and more a case of "can you leave your baggage at the door and deal with the unrelated issue on its merits ". This is where every party should be.

I will transfer to Colum as a determined proEU candidate. I will give him more respect when his party takes on issues like standing up to the shinners on local councils in the way Alliance did to loyalist in Belfast and beyond

smelmoth

Quote from: Owenmoresider on May 23, 2019, 02:00:44 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 23, 2019, 12:03:17 PM
Had picked up a bit yesterday on Twitter about Saoirse McHugh of the Green Party and how well she did on RTE's Primetime debate for the Midlands North West Euro constituency so decided to throw on RTE player when I went home from work yesterday. It didn't disappoint. She was brilliant. Cut the legs off that odious shyster Casey repeatedly and presented a common sense, well thought out policy platform. Further research I've done on her has proved equally impressive. It's a long shot but her support is growing. I think she's exactly the type of politician we need. I'll be voting #1 for her tomorrow. I think people in that constituency should strongly consider doing likewise.
Won't be giving her any preference, nothing against her personally but the Greens and their fellow travellers are anathema to me. Won't take too long to fill in the European ballot paper though, about 6/7 strokes and that'll be it.
"The wrong side of history" springs to mind

smelmoth

Quote from: general_lee on May 23, 2019, 01:40:01 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 23, 2019, 11:29:23 AM
The condescension from some posters in this thread is making me lol.

Moving the moral high ground to Olympus ... and beyoooooooonnnnnddddd
Aye it's shocking. But again it's just shinner bashing no matter how people try to dress it up. Let's look at Naomi Long, did she not as an MP vote in favour of airstrikes in the Middle East? yet people are trying to decide between her and Eastwood. Realistically, if you're opposed to violence it's a no brainer...

Sure it's easy to dismiss criticism of Shinner bashing. Is John Finucane being bashed? Maybe he has that bit more ability. Anderson's political track record does get challenged for a reason

As far as I recall Long voted against Syrian strikes but for Iraqi strikes and was able to link that differential to conditions on the ground and options available within the timescale. She made the point that strikes alone were insufficient. The 40 odd MPs to vote against what alternatives did they point to and how would they have addressed the mass slaughter being perpetuated by IS?

currychip

Quote from: smelmoth on May 23, 2019, 02:11:25 PM
Quote from: currychip on May 23, 2019, 01:47:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 23, 2019, 09:11:53 AM
Quote from: currychip on May 22, 2019, 03:57:38 PM
Quote from: smelmoth link=topic=29178.msg1897960#msg1897960 date=1558b529588
Quote from: trailer on May 22, 2019, 12:51:46 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 22, 2019, 12:14:44 PM
Given that an MEP will do zero to advance the case of Nationalism or Unionism does anyone want to make the case why there 1st preference will be the top performer in the role if elected?

SDLP are part of PES who have been vocal on a range of issues but importantly, migrant issues and workers rights. They also fully believe in the European project.
Others sit with Marxists and Communists. That's for them to explain.

All accepted and Colum could hold his own. Don't think he is in Long's league plus Alliance's group whilst smaller is the power broker in the current parliament under Verhofstadt (that could change) and the Uk representation of that group is likely to increase with the remain vote going to Lib Dems. We need our voice inside that group

You "Don't think he is in Long's league".  Wha?  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support that.  Both articulate their party position in engaging ways, with Long for me maybe being a bit preachy.

In debate I would consider Long superior. Whilst ultimately that is subjective I would consider in the round, her calmness, articulacy and ability to react intelligently to live events.
In instinct I would judge her more politically savvy. She is managing an upward trajectory. Colin isn't flying. At best he is falling with style. His failure to grasp Mike TV's initiative, the Fianna Fáil fudgy thing, the failure to grasp the electoral importance of Hanna and the lack of clear positions on some key areas can all be cited.
In resilience I would judge Long to be superior. The shinners are gunning (in the metaphorical sense) for Colum and they don't give him an easy ride. This is nothing compared to what Long personally and Alliance generally have to withstand from PUL intelligentsia

Anyway  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support your claim that Long is preachy?

As you say, there is an element of subjectiveness about comparing Long and Eastwood or most politiians.  I certainly don't consider her a better debater.  He has the abilities that you attribute to her.  I don't recall him being any less calm than her.  He's no less articulate and, for me, quicker with the witicisms.

Her party leader role is much easier than his.  He inherited a party in decline, then a political situation going into decline.  There is a bit of a mood of "one is as bad as the others" viz nationalists and unionists, hence Alliance get an easy ride for being agnostic about nationality.  I don't want the person who represents me to be agnostic.  I am a nationalist and I want someone to articulate that.  Not in a way that denigrates unionists, or seeks to raise tensions, or tells them their days are numbered.  For me Alliance is a bit of "whatever you are having yourself", which is an easy position to play.

On the preachy - here's an example.  Friday 11th May there was a debate on RU involving Eastwood, Long and Jim Allister.  At the offset there was a discussion between Eastwood and Allister about how much NI gets from the EU (Eastwood) and how much UK puts in (Allister).  They both emphasised their points.  First comment from Long was "here we go, Punch and Judy politics".  We know she means, "we are above this arguing from the great unwashed like you".  For then on, her and Allister had a ding dong.  I don't want my political reps to not challenge Allister, the opposite in fact.  That is what Eastwood did, but not in an ignorant or uncouth way, but stridently.  I was a bit pissed off at her sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, which seems to be her MO.

I agree with a lot of this. Can't comment on the RU debate that I didn't hear. I completely disagree with 2 points though.

Alliance do not get an easy ride. The Twitter responses to Long can be dismissed as keyboard warrior stuff but they give an insight into the vitriol Alliance can and do face. That on occasion is manifested physically. It's a very Belfast thing but Alliance's presence has been very Belfast focused but is starting to change

Secondly I cannot agree that as a nationalist that you need to represented by a nationalist on roads, education, tax, economics, health etc etc etc. Alliance are not a case of "whatever you are heaving yourself" and more a case of "can you leave your baggage at the door and deal with the unrelated issue on its merits ". This is where every party should be.

I will transfer to Colum as a determined proEU candidate. I will give him more respect when his party takes on issues like standing up to the shinners on local councils in the way Alliance did to loyalist in Belfast and beyond

All political parties get the vitriol on social media, SDLP no less than Alliance.  Alliance do get an easier ride from media.

Sure, I don't need to be represented by a nationalist on roads, education etc, and they don't any more than Alliance.  I find all parties in my area to be much the same on these matters, not great mostly - Alliance no better or worse than the others, hence I transfer widely, esp in local government. 

The idea that my Irishness/nationalism is "baggage" to be left at the door.  I certainly don't see it as baggage, whatever that means, or as something to be dismissed.  Its important to me, and as far as I can see, to a lot of other people.  Its not everything that I think about in a political rep, nor is it nothing.  I want someone who can advocate for me on roads, health, education and irish nationalism.  There is nothing wrong with that, its not a case of either/or as you seem to suggest.

I am not sure where the idea that the SDLP don't stand up to SF on councils comes from but it certainly does not reflect reality.  I know the political scene in Derry, over a few decades.  Your version of the SDLP/SF relationship is definitely not borne out by the experiences here.

Keyser soze

Quote from: smelmoth on May 23, 2019, 02:19:03 PM
Quote from: general_lee on May 23, 2019, 01:40:01 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 23, 2019, 11:29:23 AM
The condescension from some posters in this thread is making me lol.

Moving the moral high ground to Olympus ... and beyoooooooonnnnnddddd
Aye it's shocking. But again it's just shinner bashing no matter how people try to dress it up. Let's look at Naomi Long, did she not as an MP vote in favour of airstrikes in the Middle East? yet people are trying to decide between her and Eastwood. Realistically, if you're opposed to violence it's a no brainer...

Sure it's easy to dismiss criticism of Shinner bashing. Is John Finucane being bashed? Maybe he has that bit more ability. Anderson's political track record does get challenged for a reason

As far as I recall Long voted against Syrian strikes but for Iraqi strikes and was able to link that differential to conditions on the ground and options available within the timescale. She made the point that strikes alone were insufficient. The 40 odd MPs to vote against what alternatives did they point to and how would they have addressed the mass slaughter being perpetuated by IS?

So what is the difference in the bombs Naomi dropped and the ones Martina planted?

trailer

Quote from: smelmoth on May 23, 2019, 02:11:25 PM
Quote from: currychip on May 23, 2019, 01:47:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 23, 2019, 09:11:53 AM
Quote from: currychip on May 22, 2019, 03:57:38 PM
Quote from: smelmoth link=topic=29178.msg1897960#msg1897960 date=1558b529588
Quote from: trailer on May 22, 2019, 12:51:46 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 22, 2019, 12:14:44 PM
Given that an MEP will do zero to advance the case of Nationalism or Unionism does anyone want to make the case why there 1st preference will be the top performer in the role if elected?

SDLP are part of PES who have been vocal on a range of issues but importantly, migrant issues and workers rights. They also fully believe in the European project.
Others sit with Marxists and Communists. That's for them to explain.

All accepted and Colum could hold his own. Don't think he is in Long's league plus Alliance's group whilst smaller is the power broker in the current parliament under Verhofstadt (that could change) and the Uk representation of that group is likely to increase with the remain vote going to Lib Dems. We need our voice inside that group

You "Don't think he is in Long's league".  Wha?  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support that.  Both articulate their party position in engaging ways, with Long for me maybe being a bit preachy.

In debate I would consider Long superior. Whilst ultimately that is subjective I would consider in the round, her calmness, articulacy and ability to react intelligently to live events.
In instinct I would judge her more politically savvy. She is managing an upward trajectory. Colin isn't flying. At best he is falling with style. His failure to grasp Mike TV's initiative, the Fianna Fáil fudgy thing, the failure to grasp the electoral importance of Hanna and the lack of clear positions on some key areas can all be cited.
In resilience I would judge Long to be superior. The shinners are gunning (in the metaphorical sense) for Colum and they don't give him an easy ride. This is nothing compared to what Long personally and Alliance generally have to withstand from PUL intelligentsia

Anyway  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support your claim that Long is preachy?

As you say, there is an element of subjectiveness about comparing Long and Eastwood or most politiians.  I certainly don't consider her a better debater.  He has the abilities that you attribute to her.  I don't recall him being any less calm than her.  He's no less articulate and, for me, quicker with the witicisms.

Her party leader role is much easier than his.  He inherited a party in decline, then a political situation going into decline.  There is a bit of a mood of "one is as bad as the others" viz nationalists and unionists, hence Alliance get an easy ride for being agnostic about nationality.  I don't want the person who represents me to be agnostic.  I am a nationalist and I want someone to articulate that.  Not in a way that denigrates unionists, or seeks to raise tensions, or tells them their days are numbered.  For me Alliance is a bit of "whatever you are having yourself", which is an easy position to play.

On the preachy - here's an example.  Friday 11th May there was a debate on RU involving Eastwood, Long and Jim Allister.  At the offset there was a discussion between Eastwood and Allister about how much NI gets from the EU (Eastwood) and how much UK puts in (Allister).  They both emphasised their points.  First comment from Long was "here we go, Punch and Judy politics".  We know she means, "we are above this arguing from the great unwashed like you".  For then on, her and Allister had a ding dong.  I don't want my political reps to not challenge Allister, the opposite in fact.  That is what Eastwood did, but not in an ignorant or uncouth way, but stridently.  I was a bit pissed off at her sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, which seems to be her MO.

I agree with a lot of this. Can't comment on the RU debate that I didn't hear. I completely disagree with 2 points though.

Alliance do not get an easy ride. The Twitter responses to Long can be dismissed as keyboard warrior stuff but they give an insight into the vitriol Alliance can and do face. That on occasion is manifested physically. It's a very Belfast thing but Alliance's presence has been very Belfast focused but is starting to change

Secondly I cannot agree that as a nationalist that you need to represented by a nationalist on roads, education, tax, economics, health etc etc etc. Alliance are not a case of "whatever you are heaving yourself" and more a case of "can you leave your baggage at the door and deal with the unrelated issue on its merits ". This is where every party should be.

I will transfer to Colum as a determined proEU candidate. I will give him more respect when his party takes on issues like standing up to the shinners on local councils in the way Alliance did to loyalist in Belfast and beyond

Twitter is twitter and not reflective of general society. As someone who's canvassed and worked for SDLP can I certainly say we get our fair share vitriol from Republicans and Unionists.

I'm Irish and proud to be Irish. It's part of who I am and I don't see why it should be left at the door when talking about anything.

Franko

#325
Quote from: currychip on May 23, 2019, 03:00:12 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 23, 2019, 02:11:25 PM
Quote from: currychip on May 23, 2019, 01:47:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 23, 2019, 09:11:53 AM
Quote from: currychip on May 22, 2019, 03:57:38 PM
Quote from: smelmoth link=topic=29178.msg1897960#msg1897960 date=1558b529588
Quote from: trailer on May 22, 2019, 12:51:46 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 22, 2019, 12:14:44 PM
Given that an MEP will do zero to advance the case of Nationalism or Unionism does anyone want to make the case why there 1st preference will be the top performer in the role if elected?

SDLP are part of PES who have been vocal on a range of issues but importantly, migrant issues and workers rights. They also fully believe in the European project.
Others sit with Marxists and Communists. That's for them to explain.

All accepted and Colum could hold his own. Don't think he is in Long's league plus Alliance's group whilst smaller is the power broker in the current parliament under Verhofstadt (that could change) and the Uk representation of that group is likely to increase with the remain vote going to Lib Dems. We need our voice inside that group

You "Don't think he is in Long's league".  Wha?  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support that.  Both articulate their party position in engaging ways, with Long for me maybe being a bit preachy.

In debate I would consider Long superior. Whilst ultimately that is subjective I would consider in the round, her calmness, articulacy and ability to react intelligently to live events.
In instinct I would judge her more politically savvy. She is managing an upward trajectory. Colin isn't flying. At best he is falling with style. His failure to grasp Mike TV's initiative, the Fianna Fáil fudgy thing, the failure to grasp the electoral importance of Hanna and the lack of clear positions on some key areas can all be cited.
In resilience I would judge Long to be superior. The shinners are gunning (in the metaphorical sense) for Colum and they don't give him an easy ride. This is nothing compared to what Long personally and Alliance generally have to withstand from PUL intelligentsia

Anyway  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support your claim that Long is preachy?

As you say, there is an element of subjectiveness about comparing Long and Eastwood or most politiians.  I certainly don't consider her a better debater.  He has the abilities that you attribute to her.  I don't recall him being any less calm than her.  He's no less articulate and, for me, quicker with the witicisms.

Her party leader role is much easier than his.  He inherited a party in decline, then a political situation going into decline.  There is a bit of a mood of "one is as bad as the others" viz nationalists and unionists, hence Alliance get an easy ride for being agnostic about nationality.  I don't want the person who represents me to be agnostic.  I am a nationalist and I want someone to articulate that.  Not in a way that denigrates unionists, or seeks to raise tensions, or tells them their days are numbered.  For me Alliance is a bit of "whatever you are having yourself", which is an easy position to play.

On the preachy - here's an example.  Friday 11th May there was a debate on RU involving Eastwood, Long and Jim Allister.  At the offset there was a discussion between Eastwood and Allister about how much NI gets from the EU (Eastwood) and how much UK puts in (Allister).  They both emphasised their points.  First comment from Long was "here we go, Punch and Judy politics".  We know she means, "we are above this arguing from the great unwashed like you".  For then on, her and Allister had a ding dong.  I don't want my political reps to not challenge Allister, the opposite in fact.  That is what Eastwood did, but not in an ignorant or uncouth way, but stridently.  I was a bit pissed off at her sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, which seems to be her MO.

I agree with a lot of this. Can't comment on the RU debate that I didn't hear. I completely disagree with 2 points though.

Alliance do not get an easy ride. The Twitter responses to Long can be dismissed as keyboard warrior stuff but they give an insight into the vitriol Alliance can and do face. That on occasion is manifested physically. It's a very Belfast thing but Alliance's presence has been very Belfast focused but is starting to change

Secondly I cannot agree that as a nationalist that you need to represented by a nationalist on roads, education, tax, economics, health etc etc etc. Alliance are not a case of "whatever you are heaving yourself" and more a case of "can you leave your baggage at the door and deal with the unrelated issue on its merits ". This is where every party should be.

I will transfer to Colum as a determined proEU candidate. I will give him more respect when his party takes on issues like standing up to the shinners on local councils in the way Alliance did to loyalist in Belfast and beyond

All political parties get the vitriol on social media, SDLP no less than Alliance.  Alliance do get an easier ride from media.

Sure, I don't need to be represented by a nationalist on roads, education etc, and they don't any more than Alliance.  I find all parties in my area to be much the same on these matters, not great mostly - Alliance no better or worse than the others, hence I transfer widely, esp in local government. 

The idea that my Irishness/nationalism is "baggage" to be left at the door.  I certainly don't see it as baggage, whatever that means, or as something to be dismissed.  Its important to me, and as far as I can see, to a lot of other people.  Its not everything that I think about in a political rep, nor is it nothing.  I want someone who can advocate for me on roads, health, education and irish nationalism.  There is nothing wrong with that, its not a case of either/or as you seem to suggest.

I am not sure where the idea that the SDLP don't stand up to SF on councils comes from but it certainly does not reflect reality.  I know the political scene in Derry, over a few decades.  Your version of the SDLP/SF relationship is definitely not borne out by the experiences here.

Well put.  Strongly considering voting for Naomi as I think she's got lots of ability but if the view of the Alliance party is that Nationalist feelings are 'baggage' to be 'left at the door' then I'd have to think again about that.  In saying that, I don't rate the SDLP at all, as their MO is simply to attack SF (trailer displays this nonsense perfectly on here - is he Daniel McCrossan??).  They are pro-EU though so for that reason would be worth a transfer.  Would consider SF but Anderson IMO is a woeful candidate.  I just won't be voting unionist.  So all in all, who knows.

general_lee

Quote from: smelmoth on May 23, 2019, 02:19:03 PM
Quote from: general_lee on May 23, 2019, 01:40:01 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 23, 2019, 11:29:23 AM
The condescension from some posters in this thread is making me lol.

Moving the moral high ground to Olympus ... and beyoooooooonnnnnddddd
Aye it's shocking. But again it's just shinner bashing no matter how people try to dress it up. Let's look at Naomi Long, did she not as an MP vote in favour of airstrikes in the Middle East? yet people are trying to decide between her and Eastwood. Realistically, if you're opposed to violence it's a no brainer...

Sure it's easy to dismiss criticism of Shinner bashing. Is John Finucane being bashed? Maybe he has that bit more ability. Anderson's political track record does get challenged for a reason

As far as I recall Long voted against Syrian strikes but for Iraqi strikes and was able to link that differential to conditions on the ground and options available within the timescale. She made the point that strikes alone were insufficient. The 40 odd MPs to vote against what alternatives did they point to and how would they have addressed the mass slaughter being perpetuated by IS?
Yes he got bashed quite publicly in the wake of becoming Lord Mayor by a so-called journalist/author promptly followed by a loyalist death threat.

I don't think the UK has any business in the Middle East full stop so I'd prefer an MP that voted against all forms of military attacks abroad.

trailer

Quote from: Franko on May 23, 2019, 04:38:05 PM
Quote from: currychip on May 23, 2019, 03:00:12 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 23, 2019, 02:11:25 PM
Quote from: currychip on May 23, 2019, 01:47:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 23, 2019, 09:11:53 AM
Quote from: currychip on May 22, 2019, 03:57:38 PM
Quote from: smelmoth link=topic=29178.msg1897960#msg1897960 date=1558b529588
Quote from: trailer on May 22, 2019, 12:51:46 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 22, 2019, 12:14:44 PM
Given that an MEP will do zero to advance the case of Nationalism or Unionism does anyone want to make the case why there 1st preference will be the top performer in the role if elected?

SDLP are part of PES who have been vocal on a range of issues but importantly, migrant issues and workers rights. They also fully believe in the European project.
Others sit with Marxists and Communists. That's for them to explain.

All accepted and Colum could hold his own. Don't think he is in Long's league plus Alliance's group whilst smaller is the power broker in the current parliament under Verhofstadt (that could change) and the Uk representation of that group is likely to increase with the remain vote going to Lib Dems. We need our voice inside that group

You "Don't think he is in Long's league".  Wha?  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support that.  Both articulate their party position in engaging ways, with Long for me maybe being a bit preachy.

In debate I would consider Long superior. Whilst ultimately that is subjective I would consider in the round, her calmness, articulacy and ability to react intelligently to live events.
In instinct I would judge her more politically savvy. She is managing an upward trajectory. Colin isn't flying. At best he is falling with style. His failure to grasp Mike TV's initiative, the Fianna Fáil fudgy thing, the failure to grasp the electoral importance of Hanna and the lack of clear positions on some key areas can all be cited.
In resilience I would judge Long to be superior. The shinners are gunning (in the metaphorical sense) for Colum and they don't give him an easy ride. This is nothing compared to what Long personally and Alliance generally have to withstand from PUL intelligentsia

Anyway  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support your claim that Long is preachy?

As you say, there is an element of subjectiveness about comparing Long and Eastwood or most politiians.  I certainly don't consider her a better debater.  He has the abilities that you attribute to her.  I don't recall him being any less calm than her.  He's no less articulate and, for me, quicker with the witicisms.

Her party leader role is much easier than his.  He inherited a party in decline, then a political situation going into decline.  There is a bit of a mood of "one is as bad as the others" viz nationalists and unionists, hence Alliance get an easy ride for being agnostic about nationality.  I don't want the person who represents me to be agnostic.  I am a nationalist and I want someone to articulate that.  Not in a way that denigrates unionists, or seeks to raise tensions, or tells them their days are numbered.  For me Alliance is a bit of "whatever you are having yourself", which is an easy position to play.

On the preachy - here's an example.  Friday 11th May there was a debate on RU involving Eastwood, Long and Jim Allister.  At the offset there was a discussion between Eastwood and Allister about how much NI gets from the EU (Eastwood) and how much UK puts in (Allister).  They both emphasised their points.  First comment from Long was "here we go, Punch and Judy politics".  We know she means, "we are above this arguing from the great unwashed like you".  For then on, her and Allister had a ding dong.  I don't want my political reps to not challenge Allister, the opposite in fact.  That is what Eastwood did, but not in an ignorant or uncouth way, but stridently.  I was a bit pissed off at her sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, which seems to be her MO.

I agree with a lot of this. Can't comment on the RU debate that I didn't hear. I completely disagree with 2 points though.

Alliance do not get an easy ride. The Twitter responses to Long can be dismissed as keyboard warrior stuff but they give an insight into the vitriol Alliance can and do face. That on occasion is manifested physically. It's a very Belfast thing but Alliance's presence has been very Belfast focused but is starting to change

Secondly I cannot agree that as a nationalist that you need to represented by a nationalist on roads, education, tax, economics, health etc etc etc. Alliance are not a case of "whatever you are heaving yourself" and more a case of "can you leave your baggage at the door and deal with the unrelated issue on its merits ". This is where every party should be.

I will transfer to Colum as a determined proEU candidate. I will give him more respect when his party takes on issues like standing up to the shinners on local councils in the way Alliance did to loyalist in Belfast and beyond

All political parties get the vitriol on social media, SDLP no less than Alliance.  Alliance do get an easier ride from media.

Sure, I don't need to be represented by a nationalist on roads, education etc, and they don't any more than Alliance.  I find all parties in my area to be much the same on these matters, not great mostly - Alliance no better or worse than the others, hence I transfer widely, esp in local government. 

The idea that my Irishness/nationalism is "baggage" to be left at the door.  I certainly don't see it as baggage, whatever that means, or as something to be dismissed.  Its important to me, and as far as I can see, to a lot of other people.  Its not everything that I think about in a political rep, nor is it nothing.  I want someone who can advocate for me on roads, health, education and irish nationalism.  There is nothing wrong with that, its not a case of either/or as you seem to suggest.

I am not sure where the idea that the SDLP don't stand up to SF on councils comes from but it certainly does not reflect reality.  I know the political scene in Derry, over a few decades.  Your version of the SDLP/SF relationship is definitely not borne out by the experiences here.

Well put.  Strongly considering voting for Naomi as I think she's got lots of ability but if the view of the Alliance party is that Nationalist feelings are 'baggage' to be 'left at the door' then I'd have to think again about that.  In saying that, I don't rate the SDLP at all, as their MO is simply to attack SF (trailer displays this nonsense perfectly on here - is he Daniel McCrossan??).  They are pro-EU though so for that reason would be worth a transfer.  Would consider SF but Anderson IMO is a woeful candidate.  I just won't be voting unionist.  So all in all, who knows.

Maybe the problem is you??... you say all the SDLP do is attack SF, yet in your post you've criticised SF, the SDLP and Alliance.





Franko

#328
Quote from: trailer on May 24, 2019, 12:55:21 PM
Quote from: Franko on May 23, 2019, 04:38:05 PM
Quote from: currychip on May 23, 2019, 03:00:12 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 23, 2019, 02:11:25 PM
Quote from: currychip on May 23, 2019, 01:47:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 23, 2019, 09:11:53 AM
Quote from: currychip on May 22, 2019, 03:57:38 PM
Quote from: smelmoth link=topic=29178.msg1897960#msg1897960 date=1558b529588
Quote from: trailer on May 22, 2019, 12:51:46 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 22, 2019, 12:14:44 PM
Given that an MEP will do zero to advance the case of Nationalism or Unionism does anyone want to make the case why there 1st preference will be the top performer in the role if elected?

SDLP are part of PES who have been vocal on a range of issues but importantly, migrant issues and workers rights. They also fully believe in the European project.
Others sit with Marxists and Communists. That's for them to explain.

All accepted and Colum could hold his own. Don't think he is in Long's league plus Alliance's group whilst smaller is the power broker in the current parliament under Verhofstadt (that could change) and the Uk representation of that group is likely to increase with the remain vote going to Lib Dems. We need our voice inside that group

You "Don't think he is in Long's league".  Wha?  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support that.  Both articulate their party position in engaging ways, with Long for me maybe being a bit preachy.

In debate I would consider Long superior. Whilst ultimately that is subjective I would consider in the round, her calmness, articulacy and ability to react intelligently to live events.
In instinct I would judge her more politically savvy. She is managing an upward trajectory. Colin isn't flying. At best he is falling with style. His failure to grasp Mike TV's initiative, the Fianna Fáil fudgy thing, the failure to grasp the electoral importance of Hanna and the lack of clear positions on some key areas can all be cited.
In resilience I would judge Long to be superior. The shinners are gunning (in the metaphorical sense) for Colum and they don't give him an easy ride. This is nothing compared to what Long personally and Alliance generally have to withstand from PUL intelligentsia

Anyway  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support your claim that Long is preachy?

As you say, there is an element of subjectiveness about comparing Long and Eastwood or most politiians.  I certainly don't consider her a better debater.  He has the abilities that you attribute to her.  I don't recall him being any less calm than her.  He's no less articulate and, for me, quicker with the witicisms.

Her party leader role is much easier than his.  He inherited a party in decline, then a political situation going into decline.  There is a bit of a mood of "one is as bad as the others" viz nationalists and unionists, hence Alliance get an easy ride for being agnostic about nationality.  I don't want the person who represents me to be agnostic.  I am a nationalist and I want someone to articulate that.  Not in a way that denigrates unionists, or seeks to raise tensions, or tells them their days are numbered.  For me Alliance is a bit of "whatever you are having yourself", which is an easy position to play.

On the preachy - here's an example.  Friday 11th May there was a debate on RU involving Eastwood, Long and Jim Allister.  At the offset there was a discussion between Eastwood and Allister about how much NI gets from the EU (Eastwood) and how much UK puts in (Allister).  They both emphasised their points.  First comment from Long was "here we go, Punch and Judy politics".  We know she means, "we are above this arguing from the great unwashed like you".  For then on, her and Allister had a ding dong.  I don't want my political reps to not challenge Allister, the opposite in fact.  That is what Eastwood did, but not in an ignorant or uncouth way, but stridently.  I was a bit pissed off at her sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, which seems to be her MO.

I agree with a lot of this. Can't comment on the RU debate that I didn't hear. I completely disagree with 2 points though.

Alliance do not get an easy ride. The Twitter responses to Long can be dismissed as keyboard warrior stuff but they give an insight into the vitriol Alliance can and do face. That on occasion is manifested physically. It's a very Belfast thing but Alliance's presence has been very Belfast focused but is starting to change

Secondly I cannot agree that as a nationalist that you need to represented by a nationalist on roads, education, tax, economics, health etc etc etc. Alliance are not a case of "whatever you are heaving yourself" and more a case of "can you leave your baggage at the door and deal with the unrelated issue on its merits ". This is where every party should be.

I will transfer to Colum as a determined proEU candidate. I will give him more respect when his party takes on issues like standing up to the shinners on local councils in the way Alliance did to loyalist in Belfast and beyond

All political parties get the vitriol on social media, SDLP no less than Alliance.  Alliance do get an easier ride from media.

Sure, I don't need to be represented by a nationalist on roads, education etc, and they don't any more than Alliance.  I find all parties in my area to be much the same on these matters, not great mostly - Alliance no better or worse than the others, hence I transfer widely, esp in local government. 

The idea that my Irishness/nationalism is "baggage" to be left at the door.  I certainly don't see it as baggage, whatever that means, or as something to be dismissed.  Its important to me, and as far as I can see, to a lot of other people.  Its not everything that I think about in a political rep, nor is it nothing.  I want someone who can advocate for me on roads, health, education and irish nationalism.  There is nothing wrong with that, its not a case of either/or as you seem to suggest.

I am not sure where the idea that the SDLP don't stand up to SF on councils comes from but it certainly does not reflect reality.  I know the political scene in Derry, over a few decades.  Your version of the SDLP/SF relationship is definitely not borne out by the experiences here.

Well put.  Strongly considering voting for Naomi as I think she's got lots of ability but if the view of the Alliance party is that Nationalist feelings are 'baggage' to be 'left at the door' then I'd have to think again about that.  In saying that, I don't rate the SDLP at all, as their MO is simply to attack SF (trailer displays this nonsense perfectly on here - is he Daniel McCrossan??).  They are pro-EU though so for that reason would be worth a transfer.  Would consider SF but Anderson IMO is a woeful candidate.  I just won't be voting unionist.  So all in all, who knows.

Maybe the problem is you??... you say all the SDLP do is attack SF, yet in your post you've criticised SF, the SDLP and Alliance.

You see this is exactly where you go wrong.  I shouldn't have to point this out to you but if you re-read my post, you'll see that I've presented both the positive and negative case for both and attempted to present an objective view as I see it.

You (and your fellow one-trick ponies in the SDLP) only EVER present the negative regarding SF.  And when someone only ever does that, it means that objectivity has gone out the window and it's just dogma.

Edit.

I'm sure you'll not be distraught to learn this... but you didn't get a transfer from me in the end, primarily because of this nonsense and McCrossan's lying swipe at Naomi Long earlier in the week.  Claire Bailey was the beneficiary.

smelmoth

I see Rte are publishing some exit polls. Surely that's illegal at this stage??