Documentaries

[sid waddell]

The assertion was that many hawks in the RUC/UDR wanted to escalate violence and indiscrimate sectarian killing in order to bring matters to a point of civil war. The UVF decided that shooting up a school in Beleek was a bridge to far, and I never rhought Id say it, but fair play to the person or persons at that meeting who influenced that outcome!

Things were bad, very bad, but had that event been sanctioned the troubles would have got ten times worse. Every moderate on both sides would have stepped up to get involved.

There was nothing so bad that could not have been worse,  but that's not a comforting factor. The bad stuff that was enacted was state sanctioned, that's the bad part of it. When all the forces of the state are fully employed in enacting the atrocities in order to save the state, there is no fall back to what is commonly understood to be justice.
The 'your side is just as bad as our side' is not an argument when the State sanctions atrocity.

The implications are, or at least should be worse when it is state sanctioned, as opposed to a group like the IRA - but the hurt inflicted on the families of the victims is equal no matter who commits an atrocity

There is no resort to justice when the state sanctions atrocity but the IRA were subject to the so called justice of the state.
Even a moron like yourself  should be able to tell the diffference and how the scales of "justice" served was perceived.

Thanks for the insult

It's not an argument though

What I object to on this thread is the clear implication that because the British state engaged in appalling atrocities, that therefore Joanne Mathers, Patsy Gillespie, the workmen on the minibus at Kingsmills, the members of the Irish Collie Club, the attendees at an Enniskillen Remembrance Sunday ceremony, worshippers at Darkley, Jonathan Ball and Tim Parry all "had it coming to them"

That is the implication that has run through at least some posts

They didn't "have it coming to them", no more than the Reaveys did

Also, the Good Friday Agreement meant that many victims of the IRA did not see justice served

Stating all that is far from "moronic" and very far from being on the side of the murderous British state

However on this forum, if you add any bit of nuance at all, there will always be somebody who has no intention of ever facing up to the reality that the IRA/INLA caused incredible pain to many totally innocent people, calling you a "moron"

[Angelo]

The assertion was that many hawks in the RUC/UDR wanted to escalate violence and indiscrimate sectarian killing in order to bring matters to a point of civil war. The UVF decided that shooting up a school in Beleek was a bridge to far, and I never rhought Id say it, but fair play to the person or persons at that meeting who influenced that outcome!

Things were bad, very bad, but had that event been sanctioned the troubles would have got ten times worse. Every moderate on both sides would have stepped up to get involved.

There was nothing so bad that could not have been worse,  but that's not a comforting factor. The bad stuff that was enacted was state sanctioned, that's the bad part of it. When all the forces of the state are fully employed in enacting the atrocities in order to save the state, there is no fall back to what is commonly understood to be justice.
The 'your side is just as bad as our side' is not an argument when the State sanctions atrocity.

The implications are, or at least should be worse when it is state sanctioned, as opposed to a group like the IRA - but the hurt inflicted on the families of the victims is equal no matter who commits an atrocity

There is no resort to justice when the state sanctions atrocity but the IRA were subject to the so called justice of the state.
Even a moron like yourself  should be able to tell the diffference and how the scales of "justice" served was perceived.

Thanks for the insult

It's not an argument though

What I object to on this thread is the clear implication that because the British state engaged in appalling atrocities, that therefore Joanne Mathers, Patsy Gillespie, the workmen on the minibus at Kingsmills, the members of the Irish Collie Club, the attendees at an Enniskillen Remembrance Sunday ceremony, worshippers at Darkley, Jonathan Ball and Tim Parry all "had it coming to them"

That is the implication that has run through at least some posts

They didn't "have it coming to them", no more than the Reaveys did

Also, the Good Friday Agreement meant that many victims of the IRA did not see justice served

Stating all that is far from "moronic" and very far from being on the side of the murderous British state

However on this forum, if you add any bit of nuance at all, there will always be somebody who has no intention of ever facing up to the reality that the IRA/INLA caused incredible pain to many totally innocent people, calling you a "moron"

That's war, every conflict has terrible acts committed across the board.

The reason the Provos/INLA came into existence is quite clear, it was utterly inevitable and that's primarily because of the utter disinterest by the governing parties that ruled the Free State and the British government.

When nationalists were getting shot at, burned out of their homes, beaten off the streets aided and abetted by the security forces, the Free State did the square root of nothing. When the nationalist community were defenceless and at the mercy of a loyalist pogrom, the Free State saw it as something acceptable. When they armed themselves with the aid of a few rogue politicians down south, it must be added - then that is when the Free State saw violence as unacceptable.

How any person can defend the actions (or lack of) the Free State establishment parties during the troubles is galling. FF FG bastards.

[GetOverTheBar]

So after all that not a sniff of a follow up from RTE, Newstalk, Indo, Times, Miriam O Callaghan, Matt Cooper, Ivan Yates and the rest of our media heros. 120 people accused murdered by the British security forces and their chums and nothing.

Yet, prior to the 2020 General Election the Murder of Paul Quinn was brought up and his family used to bash Sinn Fein and that was across the board on all platforms, wall to wall coverage.

So is there anyone out there that is still stupid enough to believe that the mainstream media in this country are anything but corrupt lackies of the powers that be?

Nobody gave a sh*t about Paul Quinn during that whole disgraceful agenda. It was actually vile to see that being played out in public for a particular political end.

It was completely legitimate to bring up the Paul Quinn murder, as it was the Robert McCartney murder, and the Northern Bank robbery

Sinn Fein still have serious questions to answer as regards all of these, they have not convinced in the answers they have given, Mary Lou McDonald couldn't answer the questions put to her abut the Paul Quinn case and Conor Murphy when she was asked these questions in the final election debate earlier this year - and it's not as if she didn't have advance warning she would be asked about it

Ascribing bad faith motives onto others for your own self serving, bad faith reasons is not an argument, it's total deflection

That is as bad faith a motive as it would be if somebody from the British government ascribed a bad faith motive to the makers of Unquiet Graves

I agree there are questions to be answered by SF on this...and plenty more.

But you can't agree that it is right that certain parties and people made a disgusting murder from 2007 a massive thing in 2019 for anything other than dirt throwing.

They had absolutely no interest in the truth and justice here on this one, it was, we are in trouble, how can we blacken this lot as much as we can. The Quinn family will do what they need to for justice and truth but they were completely used last year for political gain. It's stuff like that, that really bothers me about politics on this island.

[Angelo]

Free Staters seemed to expect Northern nationalists to sit there on their hands when they were burned out of their homes, shot, killed, discriminated against aided and abetted by the state and not fight back.

But 50 years or earlier it was acceptable for their forefathers to go around disappearing spies, shooting police officers, shooting people in front of their families and committing sectarian murders in the name of Irish freedom.

It tells you a lot when the likes of FF/FG are more interested in Paul Quinn than gaining justice for the victims of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings or the Stardust fire.

[brokencrossbar1]

Sinn Fein have gone on record to state that numerous things that happened during the Troubles were wrong but that is the way of a war. This program was not a SF driven exercise and to be brining them into it detracts from the real story, the collusion with the British authorities, the whitewashing of it and the ignoring of it by the Irish government. There should be demands for a full investigation into this but it won't happen as there are too many vested interests in it. Deny.Delay.Death. The thing is the families of the people I know who are so impacted upon by it will never ever let it lie.

[Kidder81]

Sinn Fein have gone on record to state that numerous things that happened during the Troubles were wrong but that is the way of a war. This program was not a SF driven exercise and to be brining them into it detracts from the real story, the collusion with the British authorities, the whitewashing of it and the ignoring of it by the Irish government. There should be demands for a full investigation into this but it won't happen as there are too many vested interests in it. Deny.Delay.Death. The thing is the families of the people I know who are so impacted upon by it will never ever let it lie.

Who directed it ?

[Milltown Row2]

Sinn Fein have gone on record to state that numerous things that happened during the Troubles were wrong but that is the way of a war. This program was not a SF driven exercise and to be brining them into it detracts from the real story, the collusion with the British authorities, the whitewashing of it and the ignoring of it by the Irish government. There should be demands for a full investigation into this but it won't happen as there are too many vested interests in it. Deny.Delay.Death. The thing is the families of the people I know who are so impacted upon by it will never ever let it lie.

Who directed it ?

Sean Murray, good clubman from ours

[brokencrossbar1]

Sinn Fein have gone on record to state that numerous things that happened during the Troubles were wrong but that is the way of a war. This program was not a SF driven exercise and to be brining them into it detracts from the real story, the collusion with the British authorities, the whitewashing of it and the ignoring of it by the Irish government. There should be demands for a full investigation into this but it won't happen as there are too many vested interests in it. Deny.Delay.Death. The thing is the families of the people I know who are so impacted upon by it will never ever let it lie.

Who directed it ?

A republican but it was not S.F. driven.  That's a huge problem I feel. Just because something has a republican agenda automatically it has to be linked to S.F.  This was all about exposing the collusion, all about exposing what is systematic in the British establishment. All about the pain of the families. Do S.F. support it?  Yes. Was it done on their behest or with their approval? No

[marty34]

Sinn Fein have gone on record to state that numerous things that happened during the Troubles were wrong but that is the way of a war. This program was not a SF driven exercise and to be brining them into it detracts from the real story, the collusion with the British authorities, the whitewashing of it and the ignoring of it by the Irish government. There should be demands for a full investigation into this but it won't happen as there are too many vested interests in it. Deny.Delay.Death. The thing is the families of the people I know who are so impacted upon by it will never ever let it lie.

Who directed it ?

A republican but it was not S.F. driven.  That's a huge problem I feel. Just because something has a republican agenda automatically it has to be linked to S.F.  This was all about exposing the collusion, all about exposing what is systematic in the British establishment. All about the pain of the families. Do S.F. support it?  Yes. Was it done on their behest or with their approval? No

Very little about the contents of this excellent documentary on RTÉ television and radio in the few days after it.  Very disappointing but not surprised.  Programme was supposed to be brodcast a while back but got pulled at the last minute....mmmmm. I wonder why?

The lackeys in the media in the south wouldn't be capable of producing a show like that.  Great work by Murray.

At least a few more people in the 26 counties know a bit more about the dirty war and loyalist death squads.

[armaghniac]

The coverups from that period are a disgrace and they don't only affect people in 6 counties, the families of the Dublin bombings have never got either recognition or justice. Everyone knows about the Enniskillen bomb and the Taoiseach goes there etc, but I'd say there are native Dubliners that don't even know there was were Dublin bombs and although they were planted by British agents Boris or Arlene do not come to the commemoration.
There is a sort of amnesia, when Royston Brady ran in the European election and said that his father's taxi had been hijacked by Loyalists who left him in the Dublin mountains everyone called him a liar, yet the Irish Times had reported the hijacking of two taxis in Dublin and whatever his other shortcomings he was telling this straight up. Apart from anything else the investigation doesn't seem to have bothered connecting these events with the bombs.

[Angelo]

The coverups from that period are a disgrace and they don't only affect people in 6 counties, the families of the Dublin bombings have never got either recognition or justice. Everyone knows about the Enniskillen bomb and the Taoiseach goes there etc, but I'd say there are native Dubliners that don't even know there was were Dublin bombs and although they were planted by British agents Boris or Arlene do not come to the commemoration.
There is a sort of amnesia, when Royston Brady ran in the European election and said that his father's taxi had been hijacked by Loyalists who left him in the Dublin mountains everyone called him a liar, yet the Irish Times had reported the hijacking of two taxis in Dublin and whatever his other shortcomings he was telling this straight up. Apart from anything else the investigation doesn't seem to have bothered connecting these events with the bombs.

And yet you consistently defend the policies of FF/FG on the north.

[armaghniac]

The coverups from that period are a disgrace and they don't only affect people in 6 counties, the families of the Dublin bombings have never got either recognition or justice. Everyone knows about the Enniskillen bomb and the Taoiseach goes there etc, but I'd say there are native Dubliners that don't even know there was were Dublin bombs and although they were planted by British agents Boris or Arlene do not come to the commemoration.
There is a sort of amnesia, when Royston Brady ran in the European election and said that his father's taxi had been hijacked by Loyalists who left him in the Dublin mountains everyone called him a liar, yet the Irish Times had reported the hijacking of two taxis in Dublin and whatever his other shortcomings he was telling this straight up. Apart from anything else the investigation doesn't seem to have bothered connecting these events with the bombs.

And yet you consistently defend the policies of FF/FG on the north.

Said he, quoting a post where I didn't.

I both criticise and defend depending on the policy. What do you suggest that I do?

[Angelo]

The coverups from that period are a disgrace and they don't only affect people in 6 counties, the families of the Dublin bombings have never got either recognition or justice. Everyone knows about the Enniskillen bomb and the Taoiseach goes there etc, but I'd say there are native Dubliners that don't even know there was were Dublin bombs and although they were planted by British agents Boris or Arlene do not come to the commemoration.
There is a sort of amnesia, when Royston Brady ran in the European election and said that his father's taxi had been hijacked by Loyalists who left him in the Dublin mountains everyone called him a liar, yet the Irish Times had reported the hijacking of two taxis in Dublin and whatever his other shortcomings he was telling this straight up. Apart from anything else the investigation doesn't seem to have bothered connecting these events with the bombs.

And yet you consistently defend the policies of FF/FG on the north.

Said he, quoting a post where I didn't.

I both criticise and defend depending on the policy. What do you suggest that I do?

But you're on record of.

I find it incredulous how any self respecting nationalist could ever lobby for FF/FG like you have, their record and attitude to northern nationalists has never been anything short of despicable. So I'm only surprised you are not following your normal Uncle Tom routine.

[armaghniac]

I find it incredulous how any self respecting nationalist could ever lobby for FF/FG like you have, their record and attitude to northern nationalists has never been anything short of despicable. So I'm only surprised you are not following your normal Uncle Tom routine.

Duh! I am a northern nationalist, I just don't get my opinion downloaded from some apparatchik at Connolly House.

[smelmoth]

This shows, what we in the north have known for many years, that you can't trust the British Government. Something the south has found out this week regarding the Brexit withdrawal treaty. But some here will find a way to blame Sinn Fein for all of it.

It's possible to recognise that the north was and to an extent still remains a cold house for Catholics, that the RUC and the British Army engaged in appalling acts, that British governments were and currently are untrustworthy, to recognise why people would have felt the desire to join the IRA, and to recognise that the IRA also committed appalling acts

It's not an either/or

You talk complete sense. But regrettably it will have no impact on the echo chambers that exist in and on Northern Ireland.

Unionism has a problem with the past. Certainly unionist politicians have a problem with the past. They feel if they admit to even one occurrence of collusion or state brutality or even general misrule then the whole house of cards will collapse. For this reason they are institutionally dishonest re the past. I don't think this is true of the general pro union populace but it is true of most if not all unionist politicians.

But republicanism shares this same fault. We could list atrocities that were acts of outright scumbaggery and the planners and perpetrators are repellent creatures who don't deserve to dine with the humans. Republicanism struggles to admit to that. So they revert to revisionism of their own history and amongst other things it's popular support. There is a view that northern nationalists had 2 options:
Sit on their hands and be clubbed about the head in a pogrom or
Blow up a school bus

It's completely bogus. And never allow the apologists for this violence delude you into thinking that the armed struggle of the 60s onwards had majority support within nationalism.