Eighth Amendment poll

Started by Farrandeelin, May 01, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

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Are you in favour of repealing the 8th amendment?

Yes
47 (21.8%)
Yes but have no vote
73 (33.8%)
No
40 (18.5%)
No but have no vote
36 (16.7%)
Undecided
20 (9.3%)

Total Members Voted: 216

Voting closed: May 24, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

magpie seanie


magpie seanie

Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 10:27:43 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 02, 2018, 09:26:43 AM
That's not what he meant.
If a woman has the appalling crime of rape inflicted on her, is made pregnant as a result, and subsequently decides to carry the pregnancy to full term and puts the baby up for adoption, that is her choice and the right choice for her.

The point is that by voting No, people will be voting to continue the situation where rape victims are forced to any resulting pregnancy to full term.

Unless they leave the country, obviously.

Somebody having an adopted child that they love that was the product of a rape, is not a reason for this state to force rape victims to be forced to carry a pregnancy to full term.

The dirty little secret the No side have is that they are extremely glad that Britain offers acess to abortion, because it's a safety valve. That way the No side can simply keep their fingers stuck in their ears and whistle away to themselves, pretending that there is no problem with how pregnant women are treated in Ireland.

I have a real problem with this line.

Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 01, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
The most precious possession you have in this world is your own people.

Women are people too, you know.

It's time we start treating them like people, not vessels.

I agree.

Syferus

Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 02, 2018, 09:26:43 AM
That's not what he meant.

The Adoption Alliance's stance on pro-choice posted a few pages ago makes sobering reading for anyone who is using adoption to explain away voting No, though.

easytiger95

Quote from: magpie seanie on May 02, 2018, 02:37:39 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 10:27:43 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 02, 2018, 09:26:43 AM
That's not what he meant.
If a woman has the appalling crime of rape inflicted on her, is made pregnant as a result, and subsequently decides to carry the pregnancy to full term and puts the baby up for adoption, that is her choice and the right choice for her.

The point is that by voting No, people will be voting to continue the situation where rape victims are forced to any resulting pregnancy to full term.

Unless they leave the country, obviously.

Somebody having an adopted child that they love that was the product of a rape, is not a reason for this state to force rape victims to be forced to carry a pregnancy to full term.

The dirty little secret the No side have is that they are extremely glad that Britain offers acess to abortion, because it's a safety valve. That way the No side can simply keep their fingers stuck in their ears and whistle away to themselves, pretending that there is no problem with how pregnant women are treated in Ireland.

I have a real problem with this line.

Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 01, 2018, 09:27:48 PM
The most precious possession you have in this world is your own people.

Women are people too, you know.

It's time we start treating them like people, not vessels.

I agree.

That said, this vote is going to be a very personal one for everyone and I have no problem with Baile An Tuaigh giving his own personal reason for his preference. I don't find it persuasive on a general level, but as an explanation of where he is at on this, it seems valid enough.

macdanger2

Quote from: sid waddell on May 02, 2018, 10:27:43 AM

The point is that by voting No, people will be voting to continue the situation where rape victims are forced to any resulting pregnancy to full term.


What's the situation with rape under the proposed new legislation? Am I correct in saying that unless the woman presents before 12 weeks, no abortion will be allowed? Or is there an additional clause?

Itchy

Interesting. Only looking at who can vote its 27 for yes, 23 for No and 14 undecided. It's not very scientific but convinced me that I wasn't wrong when I said no could win this.

Syferus

Quote from: Itchy on May 02, 2018, 11:02:00 PM
Interesting. Only looking at who can vote its 27 for yes, 23 for No and 14 undecided. It's not very scientific but convinced me that I wasn't wrong when I said no could win this.

Christ.

longballin

Quote from: Syferus on May 02, 2018, 11:07:59 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 02, 2018, 11:02:00 PM
Interesting. Only looking at who can vote its 27 for yes, 23 for No and 14 undecided. It's not very scientific but convinced me that I wasn't wrong when I said no could win this.

Christ.

  :D

Rossfan

Why is eejit hole calling on the Lord?
Is he in trouble or dying or what?
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Syferus

Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2018, 12:15:58 AM
Why is eejit hole calling on the Lord?
Is he in trouble or dying or what?

You are a child in an adult's body. And a petty child at that.

omaghjoe

Quote from: Billys Boots on May 02, 2018, 01:16:25 PM
Saw this today:

QuoteHere are nine reasons why I will be voting yes, Yes, YES .... (by Brian Barrington )
1 - Ireland is a civilised country in all areas except one: our abortion laws. Check out the attached map below. Ireland's abortion laws put it in the same category as bastions of human rights like Somalia, Afghanistan, the Congo and Papua New Guinea. Saudi Arabian women have more abortion rights than Irish women. It really is that bad. It is long past time to rectify this wrong and to end our national shame.
2 - The Irish Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists is in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment, as is the Irish Midwife's Association. The professional view these doctors and midwives is that they cannot do their jobs properly thanks to the 8th amendment. They have to deal every day with the terrible consequences of this badly thought out constitutional amendment. Are we really so sure that we know better than they do what is needed? What argument can we make that we know better? Let's see.
3 - According to the Irish constitution a fully grown woman has an "equal right to life" with an embryo. The text reads: "The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right." This is a straightforward obscenity. The right to life of a fully grown woman clearly vastly exceeds that of an embryo and to say otherwise, as the Irish constitution currently does, is outrageous. It is not just an insult to Irish women – as an Irish man I am insulted to have something this stupid in my constitution.
4 - The 8th Amendment is an outright lie. It is easy to see that Irish people do not actually believe that mothers and unborn children have an "equal right to life" – we showed this when voted overwhelmingly to give women the explicit right to travel abroad for pregnancy terminations. We might as well have put in our constitution: "We don't really mind if you have an abortion as long as you go to England – just don't do it on holy Irish soil". The national hypocrisy is stunning. The fact that we enshrine in our constitution the right of women to travel to have abortions demonstrates that we do not actually think that an unborn child has an "equal right to life" as the mother. This is why the 8th Amendment is an outright lie.
5 - If you put lies in your constitution it is not just symbolic. It has bad real-world consequences. In the Y case a pregnant rape victim was denied an abortion in Ireland. She was a foreign national so she could not do what many Irish women do in that situation (i.e. go to England). After the woman went on hunger strike an Irish court ordered her to be force fed. Another proud day for Ireland courtesy of the 8th amendment.
In 2010 an Irish woman was denied an abortion despite being diagnosed with fatal foetal syndrome. The cruelty and inhumanity of this simply beggars belief. Imagine a law that COERCES women with fatal foetal abnormalities to continue pregnancy and undergo child birth against their will? After being abandoned by her own country this woman had to go to England of course. At least she was able to do so.
If Savita Halappanavar had been granted an abortion when she requested it she would be alive now, but due to our abortion laws she was denied it and that is why she is dead now.
If you put dumb shit in your constitution then this is the kind of thing that happens.
The 8th has inflicted unnecessary suffering on countless women in Ireland. It is barbaric. It degrades us as a people. It is a cancer in our constitution and it needs to be removed. By voting to remove the amendment we can in a small way apologise to the women who have suffered and take steps to ensure that appalling events like these do not happen again. One thing is for sure: if we disgrace ourselves and vote No then appalling events like these WILL happen again. Knowing this, how can anyone is good conscience vote No?
6 - Now, it may be that after the X case (Remember that? The attorney general slapped a travel injunction on a pregnant fourteen year old rape victim in regard to travelling to England for an abortion. Another disgrace for our nation thanks to this sham provision in our constitution) a judge eventually interpreted the 8th amendment to in this instance privilege the life of the mother over that of the unborn. But this "interpretation" contradicts the plain meaning of the text, which explicitly says that their right to life is "equal" and therefore that one should not be privileged over the other. There is a good reason why the judge, when dealing with the concrete reality of the X case, had to interpret the text to mean something that it does not say: the text of the 8th amendment is ABSURD – it is so obviously absurd that no reasonable person can take what it actually says seriously, so it therefore needs to be ignored (i.e. "interpreted" to mean something that it does not actually say). Well, are we really going to leave this absurdity in our Constitution? Why not just take the stupid thing out, since its symbolism is grotesque and its real-world consequences even worse?
7- Our favoured means of ignoring the cruelty of the 8th amendment involves hopping on a Ryanair flight to London. Time to end this national farce. How ironic and humiliating that we Irish rely on Britain, our old colonial master, to solve for us the problem that we don't have the courage and maturity to face for ourselves. Now we have the opportunity to show at least a modicum of courage and maturity and begin dealing with the problem ourselves. I really hope that we don't make a holy show of ourselves and vote No.
8 - Do the No people ever pause to think how nasty their campaign has been? Think for a moment what it is like for women who have suffered late term miscarriages being forced to look at those No posters day after day, week after week, month after month. Does this ever cross the minds of the No people? Do they even care? They have lost the argument. They have no argument so their campaign relies almost entirely on what is really a form of emotional bullying.
While we're at it, many foreigners like to use Ireland as a poster-boy for their social agenda and fund these campaigns – are we not a bit tired of Ireland being used as a pawn in somebody else's culture war? They don't have to deal with the consequences. We do.
9 - The decrepit Catholic hierarchy is telling you to vote No. These are the same people who tell you that it's a mortal sin to wear a condom. We all ignore them about contraception so why should we pay any attention to them about this? After the child abuse scandals what authority do they have to lecture the rest of us about morality? They will never face the problems, heartaches and complexities that other people face in regard to this. They will never have to go through pregnancy and birth. They will never struggle with fertility problems. They will never have a miscarriage. They will never have to be a parent to a child. They will never have to decide whether to have a termination or not. Are these (supposedly) celibate men really the people to be lecturing the rest of us about this? They are entitled to their opinion, of course; and the rest of us are entitled to ignore it.
It's really very simple: we need to delete this poisonous amendment from our Constitution.
We can do it now.
Or we can wait another few years and do it then.
Do you really want to go through all this again?
We might as well just do it now.


Firstly repeated use of hyperbolic adjectives like absrub, dumb, stupid, disgrace etc not does make something so, that is merely a subjective interpretation. Using this language  strategically for humour and emotion is a good method for gaining support for your points but does not make your point correct...

1. Just because countries that are deemed to be "civilised" legalise abortion does not make it ok or right.And I didnt see a map but I'm pretty sure it will show that Ireland is "behind" China, Russia, Germany, USA, Turkey, Cambodia, & Rwanda in terms of abortion law and therefore less civilised than these countries were genocide was perpetratedin the recent past. Also by this definition of civilised North Korea is obiviously more so than South Korea.
Folks, Ireland is a soverign country with a self determination for its people, make your own decision on your values and rationale not what France, UK or Holland are doing, what a Guardian opinion pieces say is right, or what the latest social media trend is.

2&5. It is unfortunate that medical professionals are put in this position but they are the best qualified people to do this and are actually put in equally difficult positions frequently regarding best treatment options in life or death situations, the case of Savita is a tragic one I agree and its obviously easy to say with hindsight that it was the wrong decision not to abort the pregnancy.

3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever.

9. The position of particular institutions should be irrelevant to anyone who is trying to make a logical argument or decision. Otherwise its just an attempt to guilt by association with an "unfashionable" organisation.

8. Ever looked at how nasty the Yes campaign has been? There are a good number of reasonable campaigners but it also seems that every turnaround those who are on the No side are being depicted as inhumane, cruel, backward dinosaurs who cant keep up with modern trends, stifle progress, cant think for themselves but instead blindly follow what the bishops instructions are. There is a term for this... its called Ad hominen and should be dead in the water for anyone who adheres to reason but it introduces a strong emotion element to arguments that people cannot see past sometimes.

Now there are extremes scenarios pushed forward by both sides... Namely cases of rape, terminal fetal abnormalities v Downs Syndrome, Cleft Lip or even "Wrong gender" abortions on the other.

However the vast majority (did I see over 90%?) of abortions that will be carried out under proposed legislation will be carried out on perfectly healthy babies produced from consensual sex and therefore this is what the discussion should focus on. And within that context it seems that argument boils down to a rather simple:
.....Right to Life of the baby v the Right of Choice for the mother.......

Esmarelda

I have to largely agree with Joe. I'm voting Yes but that list is embarrassing. It lowers the Yes side's case to the equivalent of what I've come to expect from the No side.

AZOffaly

This is pretty close to my point of view as well.

"3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever."

magpie seanie

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
This is pretty close to my point of view as well.

"3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever."

In that case your issue is with the legislators and you should support the removal of the 8th amendment.

AZOffaly

Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
This is pretty close to my point of view as well.

"3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever."

In that case your issue is with the legislators and you should support the removal of the 8th amendment.

No, because I don't trust the legislators, and giving them the power to do what they are proposing to do is what I am uneasy with.