A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[restorepride]

So homelessness, corruption, massive wealth inequality, institutionalised coverup of sexual abuse, landing the debts of billionaires onto to citizens to pay back is the type of normal you strive for?

Corruption is everywhere that there is money. Inequality in the ROI is less than many places owing to a progressive tax system the GINI coefficient after tax is quite respectable. Some debts of billionaires were supported, but many debts also belong to those citizens in the form of pension funds and the like.

Sounds like justification of these things. Seems to me the only thing people promoting the Free State as a great country is that it's a tax haven for multinational companies.

They may not be unique to the free state but it gives you an idea how things work.

What sort of society would you like to live in, Angelo?

One where the needs of people are put ahead of vested interests, one where politicians are held to account for their decisions and abuses of power, one where governments strive to introduce fairer taxation on the high earners and corporations and one where the state provides the best quality of public services and facilities. In any form of equitable society the needs of citizens must come first and that' what we should aspire to.

Sounds good - I'll go with that.  Government free from church influence?

[6th sam]

Won't vote for a UI unless someone "guarantees that my healthcare and financial future is secure".

I've heard it all now

Who was it called ye "spongers" years ago??

Sponger my hole, I have worked and paid Tax and National Insurance for 42 years, never claimed the dole or sick pay once.

Apples,
      Pre Covid the NHS in Northern Ireland was on its uppers anyway. Getting a consultation on most things deemed to be non urgent, 1 plus years, GP's visit one to two weeks minimum.
I'm not that fussed if I lose that type of NHS tomorrow if I'm honest and I don't currently have a private healthcare insurance for me or my family. I'd pay for my prescriptions, I'd pay the €40 to see a GP if I could see them that day or the day after, no bother.

As for your financial future, don't know if you're in the public or private sector but you can see that block grant that comes over from Whitehall (that unionists seem to be so proud of) being cut in a dramatic way in the next year or two, so economic hardship is on its way for the wee six as part of the UK.

Angelo like a lot of died in the wool shinners does the cause he's espousing more harm than good, Sinn Fein need to get their heads round that and wise to f**k up as with Biden in the WH and ballbag Boris in Downing street there could never be a better time to constructively work for a UI, an imperfect one but one all the same to get behind and hope that the good will factor brings in decent foreign investment and the likes.

The Utopian 32 county socialist republic needs put on the back-burner till the 32 county republic is achieved.

Good analysis as usual JC. I think most of us would agree with many of Angelo's concerns if not his/her approach. Many of my opinions are socialist but it would be a high risk unrealistic strategy to try to achieve a socialist republic in the short term. A 32 county Ireland can be achieved constitutionally however by winning the economic argument. Such an arrangement has to respect and incorporate Britishness , learning the lesson from the way  Irishness was marginalised in the North. ROI isn't perfect but apart from the health service it blows NI out of the water on most parameters. This is controversial JC , but the NHS though far from perfect isn't as bad as it is portrayed in the Steven Nolan led media. I'm not a conspiracy theorists but it suits the Tory agenda to undermine and ridicule the NHS but that's a different argument entirely,

[armaghniac]

Good analysis as usual JC. I think most of us would agree with many of Angelo's concerns if not his/her approach. Many of my opinions are socialist but it would be a high risk unrealistic strategy to try to achieve a socialist republic in the short term. A 32 county Ireland can be achieved constitutionally however by winning the economic argument. Such an arrangement has to respect and incorporate Britishness , learning the lesson from the way  Irishness was marginalised in the North. ROI isn't perfect but apart from the health service it blows NI out of the water on most parameters. This is controversial JC , but the NHS though far from perfect isn't as bad as it is portrayed in the Steven Nolan led media. I'm not a conspiracy theorists but it suits the Tory agenda to undermine and ridicule the NHS but that's a different argument entirely,

It is hard to see who the NHS is better as people live 1.7 years longer in the 26 counties (last year) with Covid I doubt if that gap has closed, although both jurisdictions might have seen a decline.

[weareros]

Once again, public spending wasn't the issue. Lack of regulation on the banking sector was. You're talking in hypotheticals. I'm talking in fact.

FFG have a track record proven in destroying the economy.

Our current account deficit was 7% of GNP in 2008, before a cent was paid off the banking sector debt. This was all to do with public spending.

The Shinners had no solutions then. They still have no solutions.

Absolute nonsense.

Public spending again was not the issue, the collapse of the baking sector which had to be bailed out to the tune of €64bn was the problem, lumped on the tax payer for decades to come.

We can argue about the guaranteeing the banks until the cows come home, and it was a huge mistake not to let Anglo fail. The reality is in a border poll, Ireland's debt per GDP has been coming down since the Financial Crisis, whereas UK's has been zooming up, so much so that it is now twice Ireland's. Do we want to win a border poll or not?  To win will mean showing the advantages instead of writing the DUP's "Ireland is a shithole" manifesto for them.
https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/public-debt-percentage-gdp

[armaghniac]

We can argue about the guaranteeing the banks until the cows come home, and it was a huge mistake not to let Anglo fail. The reality is in a border poll, Ireland's debt per GDP has been coming down since the Financial Crisis, whereas UK's has been zooming up, so much so that it is now twice Ireland's. Do we want to win a border poll or not?  To win will mean showing the advantages instead of writing the DUP's "Ireland is a shithole" manifesto for them.
https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/public-debt-percentage-gdp

Sadly, some people would prefer their  "Ireland is a shithole" manifesto and giving off about FF or FG to uniting Ireland.

[Angelo]

Once again, public spending wasn't the issue. Lack of regulation on the banking sector was. You're talking in hypotheticals. I'm talking in fact.

FFG have a track record proven in destroying the economy.

Our current account deficit was 7% of GNP in 2008, before a cent was paid off the banking sector debt. This was all to do with public spending.

The Shinners had no solutions then. They still have no solutions.

Absolute nonsense.

Public spending again was not the issue, the collapse of the baking sector which had to be bailed out to the tune of €64bn was the problem, lumped on the tax payer for decades to come.

We can argue about the guaranteeing the banks until the cows come home, and it was a huge mistake not to let Anglo fail. The reality is in a border poll, Ireland's debt per GDP has been coming down since the Financial Crisis, whereas UK's has been zooming up, so much so that it is now twice Ireland's. Do we want to win a border poll or not?  To win will mean showing the advantages instead of writing the DUP's "Ireland is a shithole" manifesto for them.
https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/public-debt-percentage-gdp

You seem to be under the illusion the north will be joining the 26. It's an end to two rotten states and an opportunity to form a new state that can be progressive for its citizens.

[Rossfan]

We can argue about the guaranteeing the banks until the cows come home, and it was a huge mistake not to let Anglo fail. The reality is in a border poll, Ireland's debt per GDP has been coming down since the Financial Crisis, whereas UK's has been zooming up, so much so that it is now twice Ireland's. Do we want to win a border poll or not?  To win will mean showing the advantages instead of writing the DUP's "Ireland is a shithole" manifesto for them.
https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/public-debt-percentage-gdp

Sadly, some people would prefer their  "Ireland is a shithole" manifesto and giving off about FF or FG to uniting Ireland.

If the 26 is so awful I presume they don't want to unite with us?

[dublin7]

One thing with referendums in Ireland the last few years is the facts quickly get lost once the campaigning starts. To even think we'll see the lunatic fringe from SF/die hard nationalists on one side debating/arguing with Unionists/DUP on the other side is not something to look forward to.

When the referendum is called I expect it to get very bitter and very toxic quite quickly

[Angelo]

One thing with referendums in Ireland the last few years is the facts quickly get lost once the campaigning starts. To even think we'll see the lunatic fringe from SF/die hard nationalists on one side debating/arguing with Unionists/DUP on the other side is not something to look forward to.

When the referendum is called I expect it to get very bitter and very toxic quite quickly

And then we will have lunatic partitionists like yourself who support parties who are experts in crashing the economy filling the debate with misinformation.

It will be fascinating

[Boycey]

It must take some effort on Angelo's behalf to come across as a cretin across such a wide range of threads..

[Angelo]

It must take some effort on Angelo's behalf to come across as a cretin across such a wide range of threads..

I'll give you the opportunity to withdraw that insult.

[Sportacus]

It must take some effort on Angelo's behalf to come across as a cretin across such a wide range of threads..

I'll give you the opportunity to withdraw that insult.

I had to look back all of one comment to see you call a fellow poster a lunatic, would you like to withdraw that insult while you're at it?

[Franko]

It must take some effort on Angelo's behalf to come across as a cretin across such a wide range of threads..

It's kinda surreal.

I actually agree with some of what he's posting around the UI debate.

But the constant, inane, repetitive manure that flows out of him would almost turn you off the idea.

One thing's for sure, if the debate is ever to be had - guys like him need to be kept locked the hell away for it to have any chance of carrying

[OgraAnDun]

It must take some effort on Angelo's behalf to come across as a cretin across such a wide range of threads..

I'll give you the opportunity to withdraw that insult.

Is it an insult if it's a fact?

[Angelo]

It must take some effort on Angelo's behalf to come across as a cretin across such a wide range of threads..

I'll give you the opportunity to withdraw that insult.

Is it an insult if it's a fact?

Are you calling me a cretin now too?

I'm thick skinned enough to take it but if its not alright for me to call a poster who puts me on ignore and refuse to engage with me because he couldn't refute NHS reports a coward, then it's not alright to call me a cretin.

I've been called a psychopath, a cretin, Harold Shipman, accused of wanting to suffocate the elderly with a pillow among other things on this forum in the past week or so and then banned for calling another poster a coward. So if the rules are there then I think they should be applied across the board.

Now as I said, those sort of things are like water off a duck's back to me but clearly there is a very sad poster who is feeling the need to go around and try and grass me up for every post I make then what can I do.

I'll let Boycey remove that comment if he wants but if the rules are going to be applied then they shouldn't be just to a few select posters.