A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[yellowcard]

The problem those seeking a UI has, is not solely persuading unionists or the undecided. Many nationalists, and I would be one, need to be convinced that our standard of living will not be impaired. I cannot see wages increasing adequately in a UI to cover the increase in living costs. Furthermore having reached a certain age I am very conscious that I will be relying on the health service more and more. When I was younger I would have risked these things. Much as I want to see a UI, I have not seen detail on these issues other than claim and counter claim.

I don't think you can necessarily label yourself a nationalist then but it is in this middle ground sector like yourself on which a poll will be won and lost. It is up to the nationalist argument to convince such middle ground voters.

Any such transition or change in living standards would not simply take place overnight, that is simply not how economics work. Market forces would result in a gradual harmonisation between the two states whereby cost of living in the north would likely rise as property prices converged to an equilibrium and wages would correspondingly rise as FDI was introduced into the north to avail of an initial lower cost base. The bloated civil service in NI would need to reform which would be no harm anyway. The pro unity side would undoubtedly need to consider ways of plugging the finance gap whilst the new structures are given time to bed in. That is where they should be lobbying EU/US for some element of phased financial support. The German model whilst different does present some form of template.

Sorry, but you don't get to decide what I call myself. Read what I am saying, I need to know what it will look like and that is the challenge.

A conditional nationalist then. I'm not having a go at you, yours is a very valid opinion and the challenge will be in setting out the framework to sell the argument to the undecideds.   

[Rossfan]

Assuming the 1st poll takes place around 2028 will the 6 Cos still be a basket case economy? Yes.
Do people really expect the 2.5m+ people who will be working in the 26 to pick up a tab of maybe €4k extra tax per annum to keep the basket cases in the style they've become accustomed to? By the time the budget deficits from Covid are totted up, they will significantly dwarf any potential cost of reunification.
The large portion of that workforce under 35 won't remember the pre GFA days and many more of them will be foreigners or children of foreigners and won't give 2 hoots about re unifying Ireland. Then you completely misunderstand demographics, polling has consistently indicated that support for a UI is higher in lower age groups.
I'M TALKING ABOUT 26 COS. TAXPAYERS, YOUNG SOPHISTICATED, INTERNATIONALIST TYPES WHO WON'T WANT THEIR LIFESTYLES CURBED BY HAVING TO PAY HIGHER TAXES
Firstly pro UI people will have to convince the ever growing non aligned/other people in the 6. That is the big challenge.
Can't see a large cohort of SFers doing that with their antics. Have you ever heard of the DUP DUPUDA HAVE DONE MORE FOR A UI THAN MOST NATIONALISTS

[Angelo]

Angelo's fake news does illustrate a general problem though, SF like to pick up votes in the south by claiming that everything is crap and this has meant that they have not drawn attention to the ways in which they are much better than in the 6 counties.
For instance, even "nationalists" will claim that health is better in the 6 counties when the most that can be said about it is that you get what you pay for.

Fake news?Don't deal in that but you seem to.

I have never said anything is alright in the O6. I have said both sides of the border are failed states, you won't hear me defending the O6.

The bottom line is however, Stormont has little power, everything is ran in Westiminister, they have very little discretion in how much they can spend nevermind having to share power with unionist flat earthers. It doesn't matter who forms the assembly, nothing will ever change under the current government structure in the north.

Nobody denies the O6 is a basket case but pretending the south is some sort of Mecca in comparison is pure propaganda and the political parties down there actually have the political autonomy to bring forward proper changes and progressive policies to fix that but decide to do whatever the billionaires want. And that is what your fake news tries to distort.

[armaghniac]

Nobody denies the O6 is a basket case but pretending the south is some sort of Mecca in comparison is pure propaganda and the political parties down there actually have the political autonomy to bring forward proper changes and progressive policies to fix that but decide to do whatever the billionaires want. And that is what your fake news tries to distort.

The south is a normal kind of place, it has its issues like everywhere else and normality is something of a Mecca in comparison.

[clonadmad]

For those who seem to believe that the Republic is a failed state and is any way comparable to what they have in NI

A few simple facts

NI currently has a population 36% of the Republics

1.1920 2 counties Down and Antrim had 80% of the total economic output of the Island, today the total NI economic output is 8% of this islands output.

If NI was in any fit state economically, it would be contributing a third or more.

2.The Size of the Republics economy is €400bn odd, the size of NI's is £40bn odd

NI's economy should be treble what it is, £120bn odd

3.Exports

ROI total exports €160bn odd,2020 up 8% on 2019

NI total exports £7bn odd

the reality is that the increase in the Republic exports between 2019 and 2020 is greater than NI total exports tells its own story.

4.Cross Border Exports by value

34% NI exports to the Republic

1% ROI exports to NI


I could go on and on with examples as regards the disparity in wages, educational attainment, quality of life, life expectancy, even social welfare benefits which seems to a preoccupation of some from NI and the likes of gay rights and abortion rights but I wont.

I'm sure the sainted northern NHS will be thrown at me as an example of where NI is better the Republic, but when you look at the thousands on waiting lists up there, it kinda dilutes that claim too.

The reality is that the Republic is a free open and tolerant European country, hardly the failed state that some Northerners on here make it out to be, possibly to make themselves feel better.

Yet why have they a two tier health service with the public health system seeing 600-700 people lying on hospital trolleys every year, working class people being priced out healthcare?

Why have you such issues with homelessness and where being able to afford a home is a pipedream for most of the generation in their 20s?

You try and spin it anyway you want, the free state is a failed statelet and time and time again, the vested interests are looked after at the cost of the people.

Look at the ever widening welath inequality in the 26 that grows bigger and bigger every year. Look at how the FS government consistently pilfer off state resources and services to the private sector so their billionaire pals can gouge the working man for a few quid more to vital services and resources. They can vote to not pay their student nurses but are happy to overpay a billionaire €10m and refuse to look for it back.

The Free State is rotten and mired in corruption.

you are sounding more and more like Jim Alister with every passing comment son.

200,000 on NHS waiting lists in NI

10,000 Families Homeless in NI

And? Who is saying the O6 is a success?

Where have I defended the O6? I've repeatedly said both states are failed states. What part of that statement I've repeated multiple times are you failing to grasp?

The Republic is not a failed state by any metric you wish to employ,bitterness blinds you to that

Your probably one of those work shy handout out addicted Shinner fucks who's pining for a 32 socialist state which means the color of your handout money will change and life will continue on,except this time round you'll be leeching off the Irish state

I've news for you pal

There won't ever be a socialist state here

All you boys will be getting off yer holes getting jobs and paying tax if there's ever a UI

That's just nonsense.

Homelessness, a basket case public health service, an unaffordable private health sector, an out of control residential rental market being created by vulture funds, state resources and services consistently being hawked off to the private sector, a generation coming forward hawked with seismic national debt after the state bailed out billionaire bondholders and made their citizens pay for it, a generation where owning your own house will now be a pipe dream.

And you absurdly claim, you are not a failed state. The Free State is merely a means to service domestic and non-domestic billionaires, by any metric it is rotten.

I don't think people have an issue with paying tax. I think the fundamental concerns with the free state is that the money taxpayers contribute goes into an offertory box for Larry Goodman and Denis O'Brien.

God you really do hate the Republic possibly even more than the Alisters and Buntings of this world

You do realize you have more in common with them in their irrational hatred of the south than any of us that might actually be wanting to work towards  a United Ireland

You are the best ad for preserving the status quo that there is

[Angelo]

For those who seem to believe that the Republic is a failed state and is any way comparable to what they have in NI

A few simple facts

NI currently has a population 36% of the Republics

1.1920 2 counties Down and Antrim had 80% of the total economic output of the Island, today the total NI economic output is 8% of this islands output.

If NI was in any fit state economically, it would be contributing a third or more.

2.The Size of the Republics economy is €400bn odd, the size of NI's is £40bn odd

NI's economy should be treble what it is, £120bn odd

3.Exports

ROI total exports €160bn odd,2020 up 8% on 2019

NI total exports £7bn odd

the reality is that the increase in the Republic exports between 2019 and 2020 is greater than NI total exports tells its own story.

4.Cross Border Exports by value

34% NI exports to the Republic

1% ROI exports to NI


I could go on and on with examples as regards the disparity in wages, educational attainment, quality of life, life expectancy, even social welfare benefits which seems to a preoccupation of some from NI and the likes of gay rights and abortion rights but I wont.

I'm sure the sainted northern NHS will be thrown at me as an example of where NI is better the Republic, but when you look at the thousands on waiting lists up there, it kinda dilutes that claim too.

The reality is that the Republic is a free open and tolerant European country, hardly the failed state that some Northerners on here make it out to be, possibly to make themselves feel better.

Yet why have they a two tier health service with the public health system seeing 600-700 people lying on hospital trolleys every year, working class people being priced out healthcare?

Why have you such issues with homelessness and where being able to afford a home is a pipedream for most of the generation in their 20s?

You try and spin it anyway you want, the free state is a failed statelet and time and time again, the vested interests are looked after at the cost of the people.

Look at the ever widening welath inequality in the 26 that grows bigger and bigger every year. Look at how the FS government consistently pilfer off state resources and services to the private sector so their billionaire pals can gouge the working man for a few quid more to vital services and resources. They can vote to not pay their student nurses but are happy to overpay a billionaire €10m and refuse to look for it back.

The Free State is rotten and mired in corruption.

you are sounding more and more like Jim Alister with every passing comment son.

200,000 on NHS waiting lists in NI

10,000 Families Homeless in NI

And? Who is saying the O6 is a success?

Where have I defended the O6? I've repeatedly said both states are failed states. What part of that statement I've repeated multiple times are you failing to grasp?

The Republic is not a failed state by any metric you wish to employ,bitterness blinds you to that

Your probably one of those work shy handout out addicted Shinner fucks who's pining for a 32 socialist state which means the color of your handout money will change and life will continue on,except this time round you'll be leeching off the Irish state

I've news for you pal

There won't ever be a socialist state here

All you boys will be getting off yer holes getting jobs and paying tax if there's ever a UI

That's just nonsense.

Homelessness, a basket case public health service, an unaffordable private health sector, an out of control residential rental market being created by vulture funds, state resources and services consistently being hawked off to the private sector, a generation coming forward hawked with seismic national debt after the state bailed out billionaire bondholders and made their citizens pay for it, a generation where owning your own house will now be a pipe dream.

And you absurdly claim, you are not a failed state. The Free State is merely a means to service domestic and non-domestic billionaires, by any metric it is rotten.

I don't think people have an issue with paying tax. I think the fundamental concerns with the free state is that the money taxpayers contribute goes into an offertory box for Larry Goodman and Denis O'Brien.

God you really do hate the Republic possibly even more than the Alisters and Buntings of this world

You do realize you have more in common with them in their irrational hatred of the south than any of us that might actually be wanting to work towards  a United Ireland

You are the best ad for preserving the status quo that there is

I'm just presenting facts. Two rotten states but you're try to say one is some sort of utopia and denying all the huge societal issues in it.

[Angelo]

Nobody denies the O6 is a basket case but pretending the south is some sort of Mecca in comparison is pure propaganda and the political parties down there actually have the political autonomy to bring forward proper changes and progressive policies to fix that but decide to do whatever the billionaires want. And that is what your fake news tries to distort.

The south is a normal kind of place, it has its issues like everywhere else and normality is something of a Mecca in comparison.

So homelessness, corruption, massive wealth inequality, institutionalised coverup of sexual abuse, landing the debts of billionaires onto to citizens to pay back is the type of normal you strive for?

[armaghniac]

So homelessness, corruption, massive wealth inequality, institutionalised coverup of sexual abuse, landing the debts of billionaires onto to citizens to pay back is the type of normal you strive for?

Corruption is everywhere that there is money. Inequality in the ROI is less than many places owing to a progressive tax system the GINI coefficient after tax is quite respectable. Some debts of billionaires were supported, but many debts also belong to those citizens in the form of pension funds and the like.

[RedHand88]

So homelessness, corruption, massive wealth inequality, institutionalised coverup of sexual abuse, landing the debts of billionaires onto to citizens to pay back is the type of normal you strive for?

Corruption is everywhere that there is money. Inequality in the ROI is less than many places owing to a progressive tax system the GINI coefficient after tax is quite respectable. Some debts of billionaires were supported, but many debts also belong to those citizens in the form of pension funds and the like.

+1.
Coverup of sexual abuse is certainly not exclusive to Ireland either.

[GAABoardMod5]

Clonadman stepped over the line this morning (several pages back) and warranted me issuing a 2 day ban. 

Do not resort to personal insults.   

[Angelo]

So homelessness, corruption, massive wealth inequality, institutionalised coverup of sexual abuse, landing the debts of billionaires onto to citizens to pay back is the type of normal you strive for?

Corruption is everywhere that there is money. Inequality in the ROI is less than many places owing to a progressive tax system the GINI coefficient after tax is quite respectable. Some debts of billionaires were supported, but many debts also belong to those citizens in the form of pension funds and the like.

Sounds like justification of these things. Seems to me the only thing people promoting the Free State as a great country is that it's a tax haven for multinational companies.

They may not be unique to the free state but it gives you an idea how things work.

[restorepride]

So homelessness, corruption, massive wealth inequality, institutionalised coverup of sexual abuse, landing the debts of billionaires onto to citizens to pay back is the type of normal you strive for?

Corruption is everywhere that there is money. Inequality in the ROI is less than many places owing to a progressive tax system the GINI coefficient after tax is quite respectable. Some debts of billionaires were supported, but many debts also belong to those citizens in the form of pension funds and the like.

What sort of society would you like to live in, Angelo?

Sounds like justification of these things. Seems to me the only thing people promoting the Free State as a great country is that it's a tax haven for multinational companies.

They may not be unique to the free state but it gives you an idea how things work.

[restorepride]

So homelessness, corruption, massive wealth inequality, institutionalised coverup of sexual abuse, landing the debts of billionaires onto to citizens to pay back is the type of normal you strive for?

Corruption is everywhere that there is money. Inequality in the ROI is less than many places owing to a progressive tax system the GINI coefficient after tax is quite respectable. Some debts of billionaires were supported, but many debts also belong to those citizens in the form of pension funds and the like.

Sounds like justification of these things. Seems to me the only thing people promoting the Free State as a great country is that it's a tax haven for multinational companies.

They may not be unique to the free state but it gives you an idea how things work.

What sort of society would you like to live in, Angelo?

[johnnycool]

So homelessness, corruption, massive wealth inequality, institutionalised coverup of sexual abuse, landing the debts of billionaires onto to citizens to pay back is the type of normal you strive for?

Corruption is everywhere that there is money. Inequality in the ROI is less than many places owing to a progressive tax system the GINI coefficient after tax is quite respectable. Some debts of billionaires were supported, but many debts also belong to those citizens in the form of pension funds and the like.

+1.
Coverup of sexual abuse is certainly not exclusive to Ireland either.

Correct, it was directed and controlled from the Vatican.

[Angelo]

So homelessness, corruption, massive wealth inequality, institutionalised coverup of sexual abuse, landing the debts of billionaires onto to citizens to pay back is the type of normal you strive for?

Corruption is everywhere that there is money. Inequality in the ROI is less than many places owing to a progressive tax system the GINI coefficient after tax is quite respectable. Some debts of billionaires were supported, but many debts also belong to those citizens in the form of pension funds and the like.

Sounds like justification of these things. Seems to me the only thing people promoting the Free State as a great country is that it's a tax haven for multinational companies.

They may not be unique to the free state but it gives you an idea how things work.

What sort of society would you like to live in, Angelo?

One where the needs of people are put ahead of vested interests, one where politicians are held to account for their decisions and abuses of power, one where governments strive to introduce fairer taxation on the high earners and corporations and one where the state provides the best quality of public services and facilities. In any form of equitable society the needs of citizens must come first and that' what we should aspire to.