Body of Columba McVeigh set to be exhumed from a Cemetry near Scotstown

[Hardy]

Some of the idiotic posts on this thread do nothing but point up the cloud cuckoo land existence of those who really believe that 'all our wars are merry, and all our songs are sad'.

This was a tragedy where this young man's life was taken, most probably, because he was fingered by the real informer. To listen to some of the Walter Mittyesque musings hereon you'd swear some here would be happy to have the real informer around for a few jars and a bit of the oul craic... ah sure why not, he'll only be getting us killed.

Where do the people who ordered the killing and those who pulled the trigger come in the hierarchy of responsibility for this murder?

[Evil Genius]

This was a tragedy where this young man's life was taken, most probably, because he was fingered by the real informer.

Are there any limits to your callous cynicism?

A "tragedy" for your average 17 year old child is where eg he gets struck by lightning, or contracts an incurable disease, or suffers a disabling injury, just when he has a world of opportunities open to him.

And whilst the term "his life was taken" might be appropriately sensitive when his addressing his grieving mother* etc, in this context, something like "brutally ended" is rather more apt.

And as for your attempt to pass on responsibility for this foul deed onto "the real informer", is that your attempt to absolve yourself from feeling guilty at your support for the actual murderers i.e. those (several) people who ordered, organised, committed and concealed his abduction, interrogation, torture, execution and disposal?

To commit the original crime is bad enough, but to try to mitigate or even excuse it by this sort of "Shinner-speak" merely adds insult to injury.


* - Of course, should this exhumation prove to be McVeigh, it will be too late to comfort his mother, who died four years ago, at the age of 82: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6638361.stm

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Where do the people who ordered the killing and those who pulled the trigger come in the hierarchy of responsibility for this murder?

I'll take it that that's a rhetorical question, in that you have the intelligence to discern such where arenas of armed conflict are concerned.

This was a tragedy where this young man's life was taken, most probably, because he was fingered by the real informer.

Are there any limits to your callous cynicism?

Go f**k yourself. I've seen enough bodies put into the ground because of the treachery of informers.

[Hardy]

Where do the people who ordered the killing and those who pulled the trigger come in the hierarchy of responsibility for this murder?

I'll take it that that's a rhetorical question, in that you have the intelligence to discern such where arenas of armed conflict are concerned.

No. Primarily, it's a straightforward question, deserving of a straightforward answer. Secondarily, it's an expression of my bemusement that you seem to be blaming everyone for this killing except the killers. How about saying it straight that it was a justifiable murder, if that's what you believe?

[Evil Genius]

This was a tragedy where this young man's life was taken, most probably, because he was fingered by the real informer.

Are there any limits to your callous cynicism?

Go f**k yourself.

Getting close to the bone, am I? 

I've seen enough bodies put into the ground because of the treachery of informers.

Are you claiming that some (alleged) informer is more culpable for McVeigh's murder than the people who abducted, interrogated, tortured and executed him, before dumping his body who-knows-where? It's a simple question.

(Oh, and btw, we've all  seen our share of bodies put into the ground, so spare us all the self-righteous indignation)

[Nally Stand]

I have always been disgusted at the IRA disappearing bodies, both in recent times, and in Cork 1922 etc.

Have you ever been sufficiently disgusted by the Disappearances for them to cause you to withdraw your support for the IRA (Troubles or 1922)?

And if not, can you conceive of any limits which might have caused you to say: "Enough is Enough"?

Should I also renounce my membership of the Catholic Church on the grounds that it too had it's bad apples? Well I'm still a Catholic, as the broad organisation and what it stands for still means something to me.

As for your "enough is enough" remark, well, it seems ironic considering that was the prevailing mood of Nationalists in your sectarian-crafted state which eventually gave rise to the IRA.

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

This was a tragedy where this young man's life was taken, most probably, because he was fingered by the real informer.

Are there any limits to your callous cynicism?

Go f**k yourself.

Getting close to the bone, am I? 

I've seen enough bodies put into the ground because of the treachery of informers.

Are you claiming that some (alleged) informer is more culpable for McVeigh's murder than the people who abducted, interrogated, tortured and executed him, before dumping his body who-knows-where? It's a simple question.

(Oh, and btw, we've all  seen our share of bodies put into the ground, so spare us all the self-righteous indignation)

Jesus thats the biggest case of the pot kettle black I think we've ever had on here! 

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

No. Primarily, it's a straightforward question, deserving of a straightforward answer. Secondarily, it's an expression of my bemusement that you seem to be blaming everyone for this killing except the killers. How about saying it straight that it was a justifiable murder, if that's what you believe?

Primarily, responsibility lies with the killers. Secondarily, responsibility lies with whoever set him up.

Tertiarily, I'm loth to sit at this comfortable remove, so far removed from the awful reality of that time, and pass pious retrospective judgements.

[Evil Genius]

I have always been disgusted at the IRA disappearing bodies, both in recent times, and in Cork 1922 etc.

Have you ever been sufficiently disgusted by the Disappearances for them to cause you to withdraw your support for the IRA (Troubles or 1922)?

And if not, can you conceive of any limits which might have caused you to say: "Enough is Enough"?

Should I also renounce my membership of the Catholic Church on the grounds that it too had it's bad apples? Well I'm still a Catholic, as the broad organisation and what it stands for still means something to me.

I don't know. And as an Atheist, I'm not bothered actually. In any case, this thread is discussing the IRA and its activities, not the Catholic Church.

Therefore I assume that your answer to my straighforward (first) question is "No", but that you are too embarrassed to admit it, hence the avoidance/obfuscation.

As for your "enough is enough" remark, well, it seems ironic considering that was the prevailing mood of Nationalists in your sectarian-crafted state which eventually gave rise to the IRA.

So I may take it that there is nothing  the IRA might have done which would have caused you to withdraw your support for them? 

[Evil Genius]

This was a tragedy where this young man's life was taken, most probably, because he was fingered by the real informer.

Are there any limits to your callous cynicism?

Go f**k yourself.

Getting close to the bone, am I? 

I've seen enough bodies put into the ground because of the treachery of informers.

Are you claiming that some (alleged) informer is more culpable for McVeigh's murder than the people who abducted, interrogated, tortured and executed him, before dumping his body who-knows-where? It's a simple question.

(Oh, and btw, we've all  seen our share of bodies put into the ground, so spare us all the self-righteous indignation)

Jesus thats the biggest case of the pot kettle black I think we've ever had on here! 

If you say so.

Anyhow, now you're here, would you like to give us your views on the Disappeared?

For example, do you think the IRA were justified in committing them?

Do you believe sole responsibility for them rests with the IRA, or should culpability be shared with others (eg Informers)?

Do you believe that activities such as the Disappearances made the IRA undeserving of support?

Or if not, are there any limits to their behaviour which caused (or might have caused) you to say: "Enough is Enough"?

[Nally Stand]

I have always been disgusted at the IRA disappearing bodies, both in recent times, and in Cork 1922 etc.

Have you ever been sufficiently disgusted by the Disappearances for them to cause you to withdraw your support for the IRA (Troubles or 1922)?

And if not, can you conceive of any limits which might have caused you to say: "Enough is Enough"?

Should I also renounce my membership of the Catholic Church on the grounds that it too had it's bad apples? Well I'm still a Catholic, as the broad organisation and what it stands for still means something to me.

I don't know. And as an Atheist, I'm not bothered actually. In any case, this thread is discussing the IRA and its activities, not the Catholic Church.

Therefore I assume that your answer to my straighforward (first) question is "No", but that you are too embarrassed to admit it, hence the avoidance/obfuscation.

As for your "enough is enough" remark, well, it seems ironic considering that was the prevailing mood of Nationalists in your sectarian-crafted state which eventually gave rise to the IRA.

So I may take it that there is nothing  the IRA might have done which would have caused you to withdraw your support for them? 

OK let me get this straight. You don't want to talk about whether I should withdraw my support for the Catholic Church due to it's bad apples, because you are not a member (or indeed a Christian).
On the other hand you do  want to talk about whether I should withdraw my support for the IRA due to it's bad apples. By those same standards, I can only assume you are a member of the IRA (or are indeed a Republican).

As for your final question.... had the IRA been a group which behaved like the British state/loyalists/unionists collaboration, and routinely chose its targets on a sectarian basis....then I would most definitely not have been a supporter.

[Evil Genius]

Tertiarily, I'm loth to sit at this comfortable remove, so far removed from the awful reality of that time, and pass pious retrospective judgements.

Yeah, it must be hard to come out and state that the abduction, torture, execution and dumping in an unmarked grave of so many innocent and defenceless men, women and children, without even a semblance of a trial or any mercy, is quite simply wrong and without any justification. 

I am tempted to say you should be ashamed of yourself, except that I see no evidence that you even understand the concept. 

[Nally Stand]

(Oh, and btw, we've all  seen our share of bodies put into the ground, so spare us all the self-righteous indignation)

Jesus thats the biggest case of the pot kettle black I think we've ever had on here! 

As if to prove your point Gaoth Dobhair Abu, how's this for a statement:

I am tempted to say you should be ashamed of yourself, except that I see no evidence that you even understand the concept. 

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

I am tempted to say you should be ashamed of yourself, except that I see no evidence that you even understand the concept. 

I'm ashamed all right. Ashamed that someone so full of shit as yourself is a Paddy.

[Hardy]

No. Primarily, it's a straightforward question, deserving of a straightforward answer. Secondarily, it's an expression of my bemusement that you seem to be blaming everyone for this killing except the killers. How about saying it straight that it was a justifiable murder, if that's what you believe?

Primarily, responsibility lies with the killers. Secondarily, responsibility lies with whoever set him up.

Tertiarily, I'm loth to sit at this comfortable remove, so far removed from the awful reality of that time, and pass pious retrospective judgements.

Sorry, but the "pious retrospective judgement" stance is just a cop out. You know that.