Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball

[thewobbler]

A "tactical masterclass"?

You need your head seen to.

A game between evenly matched sides, ended in a draw, and the younger fitter team that is on an upward curve, won in extra time.

Without managers, without tactics, this would have been a close match, but it would have been entertaining.

So what have we (spectators, supporters, club people) gained from this "tactical masterclass"? I'll tell you what..... absolutely f**k all squared.

Outcomes haven't changed since Jimmy ruined football. It's just become exceptionally boring to reach the same conclusion.

Stick your "tactical masterclass" where the sun doesn't shine.

So what you're saying is, regardless of tactics we'd have had the same result yesterday? Or in any game for that matter? Better footballers will always win?
If we make the comparison to the 00s as you've already stated you'd like to get back to, the widely held perception of Tyrone (and to a lesser extent Armagh) was that their tactics of a blanket defence (or puke football) resulted in victories against better players.

Just saying.

So why didn't Kerry just reverse the poles by applying better tactics then?

Somewhere along the line people should just accept that Tyrone had better players than Kerry throughout the noughties, which is why they won every game of note between the pair.

But it was close enough in terms of talent to require Tyrone to be physically flying and ultra committed to win any of those matches.

Tactics? Apart from the rather obvious deployment of the McMahons onto Star and Walsh, it wasn't really tactics. Mainly hard work and loads of energy.

[thewobbler]

Also TBrick.

Mickey Harte stuck a tactical noose around Tyrone for the last 6-7 years of his tenure; one that was extraordinarily rigid, and left no room for creativity /error.

But as a tactic, it didn't work against teams with better players. And like most people in Ireland, I'd been lulled into believing that Tyrone didn't have the individuals to win an AI.

Exit Harte. Exit Colm Cavanagh. Enter a management team that gave them a bit of rope to do whatever they liked with. And somewhere around half time in last year's AI final, it dawned on most of us that Tyrone had a lot of brilliant players, none moreso than in a fullback line that had no need for the extra protection of the previous 5 years.

Tyrone wouldn't have beaten Kerry in the semi last year with Harte at the helm. He'd have been so busy trying not to lose that he would never have tried to win.

——

Football turned a corner that day. If a new management team can win an AI with a relatively open game plan that trusts players to have a go, it should have inspired other counties to do likewise.

Yesterday's mess in Clones is likely to set us back again.

[marty34]

The Ulster final was a tactical masterclass.
What a lot of people seem to want is 15v15 playing in their named positions with a individual battles dictating the game.

From I was a child we were always taught that playing as a team would get better results than playing as individuals. The tactics yesterday were testament to that. It might not have been visually a classic on TV, but at the game it was exciting, it had drama, it had skilful scores and tackling alongside some amazing individual performances. Derry full back, marking arguably one of the best footballers in the country in the last 10 years in Michael Murphy scored 3 points from play.

For me, it feels like it is people who don't understand the tactical side of the game who are calling for the rule changes so that the game can be watched without thinking.

The Kerry and Dublin victories were more of a bore fest than the Derry one.
Why are people not looking at rule changes there to level the playing field. Maybe they should be looking at handicaps for Div1 teams v Div2 teams?
An absolutely ridiculous idea of course, but the point is there are so many "experts" complaining and calling for change after watching Ulster, but the same "experts" don't mind Dublin or Kerry winning their province in a nothing 20pt victory. Where is the balance?

One could feel that opinions are slightly biased.

People are, ie the end of provincial championships

Is that not what the Tailltean Cup is about?

[LeoMc]

I believe in any future changes should be limited, and tested, and only considered if they make a referees life easier.
Therefore I would make two rule changes that will make the game easier to referee, based on the premise above from
Wobbler.
1. No back passes inside or into your own half. This promotes getting the ball as quickly as possible into the attacking half of the field , and keeps more forwards up front . It's easy to police on any pitch by one referee. It's even simpler than the current specific "no pass back to the keeper from a kick-out".
2. Black card is for a cynical foul taking a player to the ground (whether pull, push or trip ) . I would ditch the blocking the runner as a black card , as it is too much open to interpretation and is largely ignored by referees now.

I watched the game on bbc today . I found it intriguing and entertaining, tough but sporting, with no little skill eg point scoring , tackling, defensive brilliance, tactical nous. 32 scores. There was a full house in a brilliant venue and a great GAA county won their first senior title in 24 years. Genuine role models such as mckaigue and Rodgers who have been playing football and hurling ~12 months of the year for the past 10 years, with little Intercounty reward .
I didn't listen to Rte and it's only when I logged in here that I realised how brutal a game it was😂🤦🏻‍♂️.
We were treated to over two hours last night of soccer with only 1 score , and a team that totally dominated going home with nothing ( that rarely happens in GAA).
Rte GAA coverage is an absolute disgrace with unfunny soundbites , sensationalism, arrogant former stars regailing their past glories & lazy analysis , whilst ignoring the elephants in the room , financial Doping and the provincial cakewalks in Munster and Leinster giving Dublin and Kerry an advantage every year. Give me Marty Clarke and Peter Canavan's analysis before Seán cavanagh and Darragh O'Shea.

I was a neutral today and really enjoyed the game on the Bbc.

Dublin cakewalks in their half empty national stadium home venue will destroy our game sooner than a gladiatorial derby in a neutral arena bursting at the seams.

No back passes into or within your own half. The ball can only go forward?
A player has possession on his own 40 and 2 men tackle him he can't lay the ball back to a supporting player,  he has to try to take them on or give up possession?

[onefineday]

I think what most people who want rules changes really want is a time machine back to the 1960s.

No. The football of the noughties. That's where we need to get to. Not the 60s.

Those who don't wish rules to evolve are either a) from a county that is successful under the current rules and doesn't want a reset, even if it's for the best, or b) so institutionalised after a decade of utterly crap football that they now confuse a tight match as entertainment.

60s/00s same thing. I'm going to assume you don't actually play any more. I can tell you here and now there is not one senior county footballer who gives a fiddlers about how entertaining their matches are. Club players ditto, and I'm from neither a successful club or county. It's all well and good proposing rule changes but any realist (ie anyone still playing) will tell you that it will not result in the actual changes you want - just ask Jarlath Burns and anyone else with a fetish for highcatching how the mark are working out. If you need to satisfy your insatiable nostalgic cravings perhaps stick to watching your club's reserve side

Woah lad.

When you're older you'll realise that every generation of athletes tells themselves that they train harder , play harder, and are more dedicated than the ones before. They might even be right too... but the gap is never as big as imagined.

No successful team in ANY sport has put entertainment ahead of results.

But sports themselves don't become successful or sustain interest unless they provide entertainment. And where we ended up in Clones yesterday, for long periods of the match, was no more interesting or stimulating than watching men taking turns to carry a concrete pillar around a yard.

If the rules aren't changed soon by your dinosaurs, the players themselves will start calling for it to happen. The reason being? Empty stadia.

This will happen.

There's also the enjoyment of playing, players can buy in for a while, but eventually they get sick of it.

[Eire90]

has anyone ever suggested bringing in 2 pointers if you score from a certain distance also if brought afl   behinds  1 point for a behind 2 points for over the bar maybe then 4 a goal or just 3

[tbrick18]

A "tactical masterclass"?

You need your head seen to.

A game between evenly matched sides, ended in a draw, and the younger fitter team that is on an upward curve, won in extra time.

Without managers, without tactics, this would have been a close match, but it would have been entertaining.

So what have we (spectators, supporters, club people) gained from this "tactical masterclass"? I'll tell you what..... absolutely f**k all squared.

Outcomes haven't changed since Jimmy ruined football. It's just become exceptionally boring to reach the same conclusion.

Stick your "tactical masterclass" where the sun doesn't shine.

So what you're saying is, regardless of tactics we'd have had the same result yesterday? Or in any game for that matter? Better footballers will always win?
If we make the comparison to the 00s as you've already stated you'd like to get back to, the widely held perception of Tyrone (and to a lesser extent Armagh) was that their tactics of a blanket defence (or puke football) resulted in victories against better players.

Just saying.

So why didn't Kerry just reverse the poles by applying better tactics then?

Somewhere along the line people should just accept that Tyrone had better players than Kerry throughout the noughties, which is why they won every game of note between the pair.

But it was close enough in terms of talent to require Tyrone to be physically flying and ultra committed to win any of those matches.

Tactics? Apart from the rather obvious deployment of the McMahons onto Star and Walsh, it wasn't really tactics. Mainly hard work and loads of energy.

Kerry didnt have the tactical knowhow to come up with tactics to counteract the blanket.
They also had a sense of arrogance around their belief that they were so good they could just play over the blanket.
The rest is history. Over time, even Kerry deployed the blanket and when that happened the games were far from classics.

That doesn't mean that man for man, Tyrone had better players than Kerry in 03.
Perhaps they did in 08. But without doubt, tactics and work rate won Tyrone the 03 AI.

The point is, with all things being equal a good management team will seek to gain advantage by using tactics which will make it difficult for the other side and which will ultimately give you an edge.
No matter what rule comes in, that will obviously always be the case.

[tbrick18]

Also TBrick.

Mickey Harte stuck a tactical noose around Tyrone for the last 6-7 years of his tenure; one that was extraordinarily rigid, and left no room for creativity /error.

But as a tactic, it didn't work against teams with better players. And like most people in Ireland, I'd been lulled into believing that Tyrone didn't have the individuals to win an AI.

Exit Harte. Exit Colm Cavanagh. Enter a management team that gave them a bit of rope to do whatever they liked with. And somewhere around half time in last year's AI final, it dawned on most of us that Tyrone had a lot of brilliant players, none moreso than in a fullback line that had no need for the extra protection of the previous 5 years.

Tyrone wouldn't have beaten Kerry in the semi last year with Harte at the helm. He'd have been so busy trying not to lose that he would never have tried to win.

——

Football turned a corner that day. If a new management team can win an AI with a relatively open game plan that trusts players to have a go, it should have inspired other counties to do likewise.

Yesterday's mess in Clones is likely to set us back again.

Completely agree on Harte.
He was stuck in his ways and couldn't trust his players enough to change his tactics and it severely restricted Tyrone.
But football turning a corner in the Tyrone v Kerry game? What are you on about?
Last year was as much about Mayo's loss as it was about Tyrone's win.
Mayo had their final against the Dubs and had they brought the same game to the final Tyrone would not have won.
I know quite a few Tyrone men who I consider to be better informed than me on Tyrone football and most think it was a lucky AI last year.
Time will tell how good that team is, but for now the jury is out.

Yesterday in Clones was hopefully the beginning of the changing of the guard, but time will tell on that one too.

For now we'll enjoy the win and who know what will happen next.

[onefineday]

I believe in any future changes should be limited, and tested, and only considered if they make a referees life easier.
Therefore I would make two rule changes that will make the game easier to referee, based on the premise above from
Wobbler.
1. No back passes inside or into your own half. This promotes getting the ball as quickly as possible into the attacking half of the field , and keeps more forwards up front . It's easy to police on any pitch by one referee. It's even simpler than the current specific "no pass back to the keeper from a kick-out".
2. Black card is for a cynical foul taking a player to the ground (whether pull, push or trip ) . I would ditch the blocking the runner as a black card , as it is too much open to interpretation and is largely ignored by referees now.

I watched the game on bbc today . I found it intriguing and entertaining, tough but sporting, with no little skill eg point scoring , tackling, defensive brilliance, tactical nous. 32 scores. There was a full house in a brilliant venue and a great GAA county won their first senior title in 24 years. Genuine role models such as mckaigue and Rodgers who have been playing football and hurling ~12 months of the year for the past 10 years, with little Intercounty reward .
I didn't listen to Rte and it's only when I logged in here that I realised how brutal a game it was😂🤦🏻‍♂️.
We were treated to over two hours last night of soccer with only 1 score , and a team that totally dominated going home with nothing ( that rarely happens in GAA).
Rte GAA coverage is an absolute disgrace with unfunny soundbites , sensationalism, arrogant former stars regailing their past glories & lazy analysis , whilst ignoring the elephants in the room , financial Doping and the provincial cakewalks in Munster and Leinster giving Dublin and Kerry an advantage every year. Give me Marty Clarke and Peter Canavan's analysis before Seán cavanagh and Darragh O'Shea.

I was a neutral today and really enjoyed the game on the Bbc.

Dublin cakewalks in their half empty national stadium home venue will destroy our game sooner than a gladiatorial derby in a neutral arena bursting at the seams.

No back passes into or within your own half. The ball can only go forward?
A player has possession on his own 40 and 2 men tackle him he can't lay the ball back to a supporting player,  he has to try to take them on or give up possession?

I think the proposal is that once the ball is over the half way line, you can't play it back into your half, easy to police. But I'm not sure there's a problem with the scenario you painted anyway!

[restorepride]

I think what most people who want rules changes really want is a time machine back to the 1960s.

No. The football of the noughties. That's where we need to get to. Not the 60s.

Those who don't wish rules to evolve are either a) from a county that is successful under the current rules and doesn't want a reset, even if it's for the best, or b) so institutionalised after a decade of utterly crap football that they now confuse a tight match as entertainment.

60s/00s same thing. I'm going to assume you don't actually play any more. I can tell you here and now there is not one senior county footballer who gives a fiddlers about how entertaining their matches are. Club players ditto, and I'm from neither a successful club or county. It's all well and good proposing rule changes but any realist (ie anyone still playing) will tell you that it will not result in the actual changes you want - just ask Jarlath Burns and anyone else with a fetish for highcatching how the mark are working out. If you need to satisfy your insatiable nostalgic cravings perhaps stick to watching your club's reserve side

Woah lad.

When you're older you'll realise that every generation of athletes tells themselves that they train harder , play harder, and are more dedicated than the ones before. They might even be right too... but the gap is never as big as imagined.

No successful team in ANY sport has put entertainment ahead of results.

But sports themselves don't become successful or sustain interest unless they provide entertainment. And where we ended up in Clones yesterday, for long periods of the match, was no more interesting or stimulating than watching men taking turns to carry a concrete pillar around a yard.

If the rules aren't changed soon by your dinosaurs, the players themselves will start calling for it to happen. The reason being? Empty stadia.

This will happen.

Good point. Clones was really empty yesterday. When you are older you will learn to think before you lift concrete.

[themac_23]

Said it before here, the main tweak needed is the cant play the ball back after you cross the halfway line means teams can actually press without a team just knocking it back 40 yards. we had no score in the first 10 mins of the Ulster final, so much of that was no pressure put on the ball and spraying backwards passes It was honestly the worst 10 mins of GAA ive ever watched, id rather watch my son at the go games.

[tiempo]

Said it before here, the main tweak needed is the cant play the ball back after you cross the halfway line means teams can actually press without a team just knocking it back 40 yards. we had no score in the first 10 mins of the Ulster final, so much of that was no pressure put on the ball and spraying backwards passes It was honestly the worst 10 mins of GAA ive ever watched, id rather watch my son at the go games.

Nope - Offaly, Laois, Westmeath, Wicklow, Tipp, Meath, and Cork need to get off their arse and stop lying down to Dublin and Kerry, that is all.

Down too up north, but at least teams like Fermanagh and Cavan have a bit of fight and pride in them and don't just roll over and have their bellies tickled.

[LeoMc]

I believe in any future changes should be limited, and tested, and only considered if they make a referees life easier.
Therefore I would make two rule changes that will make the game easier to referee, based on the premise above from
Wobbler.
1. No back passes inside or into your own half. This promotes getting the ball as quickly as possible into the attacking half of the field , and keeps more forwards up front . It's easy to police on any pitch by one referee. It's even simpler than the current specific "no pass back to the keeper from a kick-out".
2. Black card is for a cynical foul taking a player to the ground (whether pull, push or trip ) . I would ditch the blocking the runner as a black card , as it is too much open to interpretation and is largely ignored by referees now.

I watched the game on bbc today . I found it intriguing and entertaining, tough but sporting, with no little skill eg point scoring , tackling, defensive brilliance, tactical nous. 32 scores. There was a full house in a brilliant venue and a great GAA county won their first senior title in 24 years. Genuine role models such as mckaigue and Rodgers who have been playing football and hurling ~12 months of the year for the past 10 years, with little Intercounty reward .
I didn't listen to Rte and it's only when I logged in here that I realised how brutal a game it was😂🤦🏻‍♂️.
We were treated to over two hours last night of soccer with only 1 score , and a team that totally dominated going home with nothing ( that rarely happens in GAA).
Rte GAA coverage is an absolute disgrace with unfunny soundbites , sensationalism, arrogant former stars regailing their past glories & lazy analysis , whilst ignoring the elephants in the room , financial Doping and the provincial cakewalks in Munster and Leinster giving Dublin and Kerry an advantage every year. Give me Marty Clarke and Peter Canavan's analysis before Seán cavanagh and Darragh O'Shea.

I was a neutral today and really enjoyed the game on the Bbc.

Dublin cakewalks in their half empty national stadium home venue will destroy our game sooner than a gladiatorial derby in a neutral arena bursting at the seams.

No back passes into or within your own half. The ball can only go forward?
A player has possession on his own 40 and 2 men tackle him he can't lay the ball back to a supporting player,  he has to try to take them on or give up possession?

I think the proposal is that once the ball is over the half way line, you can't play it back into your half, easy to police. But I'm not sure there's a problem with the scenario you painted anyway!

No back passes is very different from no passing back over the half way line. The latter is easy to police, the former comes down to judgement calls about the angle of the pass.

[oakleaflad]

Some overreaction on here. Was at the game and it was nowhere near as bad as is being made out.

[Keyser soze]

Maybe change the rules so that teams like Kildare could grow a set of balls instead of standing watching like a group of U14s as Dublin waltzed past them to score 5 goals.