Has the intercounty system in football told us all it’s ever going to tell us?

[sid waddell]

And those lads whose Club  are out of Championships in April?
How much interest will they have in an oul League that no one cares about or will their season be over?

Plenty of lads are already effectively out by April, in Dublin you play two round robin games in April with a third scheduled for late September - which is a ridiculous situation

Lose your first two and you're likely out anyway

We keep hearing that games are what the club player wants

But perhaps that is not the case?

[Captain Obvious]

As good a spot as any to post this

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/1127/1180822-gaa-calendar-2021/

A  u-turn  on 2021 season?

From the examiner

GAA weigh up staging club before inter-county season in 2021

Central Council discusses 'flipping' the seasons in 2021, with club played first

THE GAA won't make a decision on the 2021 calendar until next month as they weigh up the possibility of commencing the club season before county.

It had been expected the county period would commence in late February with the Allianz Leagues based on split football divisions and the hurling competition remaining the same but for reduced knockout stages.

The Championship, based on the qualifier system, would then start in late April before finishing in July before the county club championships take place in late summer and earlier autumn.

However, GAA leaders may now recommend the exclusive club window precede county as there are doubts about meaningful crowds returning to games in the first half of 2021.

With the organisation making a variety of cuts and requiring a Government grant to stage the Championships, the issue of gate receipts is a considerable factor for the GAA. Delaying the inter-county season until such time as supporters can go to games in sizeable numbers may be required.

The Club Players Association have already backed the proposal to organise the county period before the club, although a number of prominent GAA figures such as Tipperary senior hurling manager Liam Sheedy have supported club going first.

Central Council today heard the latest on discussions between the GAA and GPA. It is expected that the fundraising dinners held by the official inter-county players' body in the US will now be a joint effort between the organisations with a portion of the money raised to be given to local GAA bodies.

Although there were some claims from counties that the changes to the under-age grades require a further vote, Croke Park officials that the uneven grades - U13, U15, U17 - are the primary levels now.


The GAA hopes to receive more information about when they can stage the outstanding U20 football final, the U20 hurling championship and both minor championships from the Government earlier next week.

It makes a lot more sense to have the club championships played off before the inter-county championships than they other way around

That way the club championships i) become genuinely relevant as regards getting an inter-county squad place ii) they get played in better weather and longer evenings and iii) the influence of county managers and training camps could be cut back on - the club championships double as pre-season training for inter-county players

Play club championships from the end of March to July - with the All-Ireland club finals in early July

Inter-county championships begin in mid-July and go through to the end of October or early November

Going by above link the county club championships could be played February to April which is unlikely to be played in better weather and longer evenings. Will the provincial and All Ireland club series get the go ahead in 2021?

[sid waddell]

Play the NFL/NHL in February/March

On a hypothetical 2021 calendar the NFL final would be March 28th

Then start the club championships

Taking Dublin as an example:

Three round robin club football games on April 4th, April 18th and May 2nd

Three round robin club hurling games on April 11th, April 25th and May 9th

Run off the knockout stages so the county finals are finished by the June Bank Holiday Weekend - June 6th

Provincial club championships to be finished by the weekend of July 4th

All-Ireland club finals on July 18th

Inter-county championships start the weekend of July 31st/August 1st

All-Ireland finals by the last weekend in October/first weekend in November

Or ii) finish the county championships by the June bank holiday weekend as above, then start the inter-county championships on the weekend of June 21st, with the finals reverting to their traditional September dates

Provincial club championships follow on from the first weekend in October with the finals in November

[thewobbler]

Sid, listen up please.

Under your "plan", somewhere in the region of 3,000 ** club championship matches would take place in March and April. And as of course nobody could expect a team to play championship without first having some league (or at least friendly matches) in preparation, at least the same number of games before then.

Hopefully right about now it's dawning on you that the majority of GAA venues in Ireland either don't have suitable floodlighting, or spectator facilities (or both) to host championship matches. So your plan would require the more suitable grounds playing host to up to a dozen games a week. In wet, cold March and April, with water tables still high, there is no surface in Ireland can take that sort of punishment.


Please don't do your usual thing now and ignore what I'm saying. No matter how many good reasons you can generate for the county championship to come second, it creates a genuine and unavoidable logistical mountain that cannot be climbed.

——-

** there's some 2200 clubs in Ireland. If every county adopted a simple knockout championship, that means at least 1100 round 1 fixtures. But then of course there are dual clubs. Let's round it up 1,500 first round fixtures. But then let's also catch ourselves on and accept that most counties won't revert to a straight knockout, so a couple of early rounds will be required. Hence some 3000-odd matches. That's just for the early rounds.

By way of comparison, you could fit all of the county hurling championships and the county football championship into a box of 200 fixtures. With plenty of room to spare.

[sid waddell]

Sid, listen up please.

Under your "plan", somewhere in the region of 3,000 ** club championship matches would take place in March and April. And as of course nobody could expect a team to play championship without first having some league (or at least friendly matches) in preparation, at least the same number of games before then.

Hopefully right about now it's dawning on you that the majority of GAA venues in Ireland either don't have suitable floodlighting, or spectator facilities (or both) to host championship matches. So your plan would require the more suitable grounds playing host to up to a dozen games a week. In wet, cold March and April, with water tables still high, there is no surface in Ireland can take that sort of punishment.


Please don't do your usual thing now and ignore what I'm saying. No matter how many good reasons you can generate for the county championship to come second, it creates a genuine and unavoidable logistical mountain that cannot be climbed.

——-

** there's some 2200 clubs in Ireland. If every county adopted a simple knockout championship, that means at least 1100 round 1 fixtures. But then of course there are dual clubs. Let's round it up 1,500 first round fixtures. But then let's also catch ourselves on and accept that most counties won't revert to a straight knockout, so a couple of early rounds will be required. Hence some 3000-odd matches. That's just for the early rounds.

By way of comparison, you could fit all of the county hurling championships and the county football championship into a box of 200 fixtures. With plenty of room to spare.

It's pretty simple

You can easily hold club championships in April and May - and indeed club championship fixtures have been held in April throughout the country over the last few years

This is not some impossible logistical operation

It's basic fixture planning, the concept of which seems to be beyond some people

[thewobbler]

You're not listening.

Stop being obtuse.

There is no logistical skill or understanding involved in rhyming off a perfect scenario. That's fiction, not logistics. Logistics is purely and simply the science of ensuring successful delivery, and after that, as efficiently as possible. Not the other way around.

The problem with your fictitious scenario is that if county sides are entitled to their players by the middle of July, then club championships absolutely have to be concluded in full before then.

Which means that when a week is washed out in April, it causes problems. When a fortnight is wiped out out by the weather, it leaves nowhere to go.

I'm sure you'll don your fantasy goggles again and find one more hole to throw these into. Except you have already got the All Ireland club champions out 7 weekends in a row in June and July. That's right, you've got club footballers traipsing their county, then their province, then their country, for 7 championship weekends in a row.

——

It's becoming clear that you don't bother much with the club game. You clearly can't identify with it. That's for sure.


.

[sid waddell]

You're not listening.

Stop being obtuse.

There is no logistical skill or understanding involved in rhyming off a perfect scenario. That's fiction, not logistics. Logistics is purely and simply the science of ensuring successful delivery, and after that, as efficiently as possible. Not the other way around.

The problem with your fictitious scenario is that if county sides are entitled to their players by the middle of July, then club championships absolutely have to be concluded in full before then.

Which means that when a week is washed out in April, it causes problems. When a fortnight is wiped out out by the weather, it leaves nowhere to go.

I'm sure you'll don your fantasy goggles again and find one more hole to throw these into. Except you have already got the All Ireland club champions out 7 weekends in a row in June and July. That's right, you've got club footballers traipsing their county, then their province, then their country, for 7 championship weekends in a row.

——

It's becoming clear that you don't bother much with the club game. You clearly can't identify with it. That's for sure.


.

Much easier to put your fingers in your ears and whistle away to yourself than engage in some thinking

The problem with GAA fixture making has always been and always will be NIMBYism

As exemplified by yourself here

What I really loved was the way you straw manned the idea that I wasn't taking account of dual clubs when I specifically did that in my post

That's an example of not reading

Another lovely straw man is the idea that I can't identify with the club game, despite the fact that my idea is to give the club game a much higher profile, with county finals being played in high summer

I think you've identified how part of the problem with the club game is that often the very people who most claim to speak for it are very often the very people who are holding it back

The CPA was an example of that and it certainly looks like you are too

[thewobbler]

The Sid playbook on full show already.

Step 1: refer to Nimbyism, because it makes you look clever.

Step 2: refute the argument as straw man, for every discussion point in every forum is in fact a straw man argument when looked at in isolation. So you look clever.

Step 3: completely and utterly ignore the arguments put forward by the most recent post, and instead focus on anything that can be challenged in previous posts. Context isn't needed now. You've already thrown the straw man on the table, it can't be thrown back at you.

Step 4: ah feck you can't go there. it's currently breaking your heart that you can't find a way to bring right wing politics into this.

——

You aren't qualified to discuss the club game Sid. You're showing this at every step. Nobody involved in it has an underlying  desire for the club game to have a higher profile. We  just want to play and watch competitive football.

[thewobbler]

Let's put thousands of club championship games on in April.

What could possibly go wrong? What could possibly go wrong? What could possibly go wrong?

[sid waddell]

Let's flesh it out, and give an extra week for the spring to bed in:

April 11 Club Football Round Robin 1
April 18 Club Hurling Round Robin 1
April 25 Club Football Round Robin 2
May 2 Club Hurling Round Robin 2
May 9 Club Football Round Robin 3
May 16 Club Hurling Round Robin 3
May 23 Club Football Quarter-Finals
May 30 Club Hurling Quarter-Finals
June 6 Club Football Semi-Finals
June 13 Club Hurling Semi-Finals
June 20 Club Football Final
June 27 Club Hurling Final

Inter-county championships begin July 11th

All-Ireland Hurling Final September 26th
All-Ireland Football Final October 3rd

Provincial club championships resume October 17th, to be completed by November 14th
All-Ireland Club Finals December 12th

Seems a pretty reasonable time scale to me

[Itchy]

As good a spot as any to post this

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/1127/1180822-gaa-calendar-2021/

Regional league to have relegation and the distance to travel seems to be forgotten about in relegation play offs seems a bit daft. Would make more sense just to play the normal 7 game league without finals

Glad to see the end of the super 8s, just another tool to help the big teams and clearly has neen rejected by fans. This regional league is a bit daft though. Distance to travel to matches I have never heard of as a big complaint and as supporter I've quite enjoyed long trips and an overnighter. Could they just play the 7 games and get rid of the final, winner is team on top. What happens if a division ends up with 6 ulster teams and 2 munster?

[sid waddell]

The Sid playbook on full show already.

Step 1: refer to Nimbyism, because it makes you look clever.

Step 2: refute the argument as straw man, for every discussion point in every forum is in fact a straw man argument when looked at in isolation. So you look clever.

Step 3: completely and utterly ignore the arguments put forward by the most recent post, and instead focus on anything that can be challenged in previous posts. Context isn't needed now. You've already thrown the straw man on the table, it can't be thrown back at you.

Step 4: ah feck you can't go there. it's currently breaking your heart that you can't find a way to bring right wing politics into this.

——

You aren't qualified to discuss the club game Sid. You're showing this at every step. Nobody involved in it has an underlying  desire for the club game to have a higher profile. We  just want to play and watch competitive football.

The only reason I refer to NIMBYism and straw manning is because your posts are full of them

If you didn't engage in them, I wouldn't refer to them 

Given that this is a discussion forum, you'd be much better off actually trying to discuss things

Rather than flying off the handle and go all "over my dead body" when somebody does put forward a very reasonable plan

Or, even better, put forward your own plan, or actually discuss other people's very reasonable plans on their merits

The line you're currently taking doesn't do you, or discussion, any favours at all, it just makes you look small minded

Whether that's the intention or not, I have no idea

[thewobbler]

Let's flesh it out, and give an extra week for the spring to bed in:

April 11 Club Football Round Robin 1
April 18 Club Hurling Round Robin 1
April 25 Club Football Round Robin 2
May 2 Club Hurling Round Robin 2
May 9 Club Football Round Robin 3
May 16 Club Hurling Round Robin 3
May 23 Club Football Quarter-Finals
May 30 Club Hurling Quarter-Finals
June 6 Club Football Semi-Finals
June 13 Club Hurling Semi-Finals
June 20 Club Football Final
June 27 Club Hurling Final

Inter-county championships begin July 11th

All-Ireland Hurling Final September 26th
All-Ireland Football Final October 3rd

Provincial club championships resume October 17th, to be completed by November 14th
All-Ireland Club Finals December 12th

Seems a pretty reasonable time scale to me

1. You have circa 4-5 weeks at the start of that schedule where midweek games are only possible in floodlit, championship standard venues. Which in most counties will be extraordinary pressure on 1-3 venues. Basically there's no room for dual sport on the one weekend, not at early rounds anyhow.

2. Should we have a washout weekend any time during those 4-5 opening weeks, it can't be slotted in midweek. Literally every last fixture moves by a week? But hold on, there is no spare week / allowance week for this? So do we just push everything back by a week including the county programme?

But most of all this.

Your solution to the club~county player availability problems that have driven a wedge into the association for the past 20 years (apart from this year) is to revert almost entirely to the system that was in place 2 years ago (county, then club, then county, then club) except to railroad the club championships into a window that isn't big enough, instead of allowing them to be completed when counties exit their championship.

This is so poorly thought out it's insulting.

[sid waddell]

Let's flesh it out, and give an extra week for the spring to bed in:

April 11 Club Football Round Robin 1
April 18 Club Hurling Round Robin 1
April 25 Club Football Round Robin 2
May 2 Club Hurling Round Robin 2
May 9 Club Football Round Robin 3
May 16 Club Hurling Round Robin 3
May 23 Club Football Quarter-Finals
May 30 Club Hurling Quarter-Finals
June 6 Club Football Semi-Finals
June 13 Club Hurling Semi-Finals
June 20 Club Football Final
June 27 Club Hurling Final

Inter-county championships begin July 11th

All-Ireland Hurling Final September 26th
All-Ireland Football Final October 3rd

Provincial club championships resume October 17th, to be completed by November 14th
All-Ireland Club Finals December 12th

Seems a pretty reasonable time scale to me

1. You have circa 4-5 weeks at the start of that schedule where midweek games are only possible in floodlit, championship standard venues. Which in most counties will be extraordinary pressure on 1-3 venues. Basically there's no room for dual sport on the one weekend, not at early rounds anyhow.

2. Should we have a washout weekend any time during those 4-5 opening weeks, it can't be slotted in midweek. Literally every last fixture moves by a week? But hold on, there is no spare week / allowance week for this? So do we just push everything back by a week including the county programme?

But most of all this.

Your solution to the club~county player availability problems that have driven a wedge into the association for the past 20 years (apart from this year) is to revert almost entirely to the system that was in place 2 years ago (county, then club, then county, then club) except to railroad the club championships into a window that isn't big enough, instead of allowing them to be completed when counties exit their championship.

This is so poorly thought out it's insulting.

You might want to check when the sun sets in mid-April

April 11th sunset in Dublin: 8:19pm

They even play cricket in Ireland in April

But apparently now, it's impossible to play GAA

And it's apparently impossible to re-arrange any fixtures in a system which has a two week gap between fixtures, and plenty of adequate midweek daylight

Lord knows how they cope with the NFL and NHL which is played on a week to week basis in January, February and March

Two and a half months in spring and high summer is apparently not enough to complete club championships

The mind boggles

[thewobbler]

The right plan isn't complicated Sid. It's pretty much what was mooted a few weeks ago by the GAA.

1. Play county championship immediately after national league. This is the county season. It would run from January to early June.

2. Do not unnecessarily prolong the county championship. This isn't so much about getting rid of super 8s or back doors. And definitely not about getting rid of rest weeks. But there's no reason on this earth, why all 16 provincial quarter finals wouldn't take place on same weekend.

3. Start club leagues as early as is practical. But county panellists (maximum 32) are ineligible for club league football until their county has exited the championship, unless released temporarily by county mgt.

4. Club championships can start whenever a county board wants and can take any format they like. But provincial club championships start in first week of September, and all Ireland club championships start mid October, regardless of whether clubs have progressed.

5. For the welfare of our elite players, who've now possibly been on the go for 10 months within a break, November is a complete compulsory shutdown at adult levels. Clubs and counties have AGMs. Everything resets. Then in December we start planning / training for the coming season.

4.