They haven't ponied up for the redress scheme and they control hospitals in which abortion may be required
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/government-fears-st-vincent-s-set-to-ditch-maternity-hospital-move-1.3057169
The Catholic Church has been instrumental in providing valued health care and educational services to the vast majority of people North and South for decades,saving the Governments in both jurisdictions countless millions.
Perhaps given the ingratitude and downright offensiveness the Church should withdraw their services,reallocate them to grateful populations in the Third World,and let the Government and tax payers,North and South,take full responsibility for Health and Education.
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 08:30:49 AM
The Catholic Church has been instrumental in providing valued health care and educational services to the vast majority of people North and South for decades,saving the Governments in both jurisdictions countless millions.
Perhaps given the ingratitude and downright offensiveness the Church should withdraw their services,reallocate them to grateful populations in the Third World,and let the Government and tax payers,North and South,take full responsibility for Health and Education.
This somewhat contradicts you position on your own thread here - http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=27816.0
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 08:30:49 AM
The Catholic Church has been instrumental in providing valued health care and educational services to the vast majority of people North and South for decades,saving the Governments in both jurisdictions countless millions.
Perhaps given the ingratitude and downright offensiveness the Church should withdraw their services,reallocate them to grateful populations in the Third World,and let the Government and tax payers,North and South,take full responsibility for Health and Education.
I can only speak about N.Ireland situation. In terms of health care the contribution by the Church has recently been reviewed at the Historical Abuse Inquiry and the results do not show that the contribution was anything to be hailed even by Tony and almost matched the depths found in RoI but on a smaller scale. Given that the Church no longer provides anything for health care in NI then it is welcome to remove itself and go to a third world country once it has contributed to the compensation to be paid to the victims here in NI. The good old NHS is fully state controlled and even the Mater Infirmorum on the Crumlin Road, last Church owned hospital, was handed to the state in 1972
In terms of schools, the settlement provided by the state and accepted by the Church and its religious orders when the state provided 100% funding for all aspects of education in Catholic schools in return for vesting of the Catholic owned schools estate has meant that the Church handed over its schools to the NI state while still holding a high degree of control over the governance and management of the schools. Essentially, the church has no worthwhile assets in education in NI as they have been transferred to the state who fund maintenance and build new schools for the sector gaining an increasing control of the estate since schools went maintained. The Protestant Churches got a similar deal but didn't keep the same level of management and governance control. So, there is little for the Church to walk away with from the Education sector in NI when the state subtracts its input.
Religious orders and subsequent trustees also took the shilling on accepting 100% funding from the NI state and they tend to own many of the grammar schools and a few primary schools. They also retained management and governance of their schools to some extent. Their estate was also vested by the state and they would have little or nothing to walk away with.
So Tony, let the Church and religious orders walk away from education in NI, it won't take much with it as virtually all its assets are vested in the state. There won't be many trying to persuade them to stay.
Why then are so many in the North and South clamouring to get into "Catholic" schools?
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 08:30:49 AM
The Catholic Church has been instrumental in providing valued health care and educational services to the vast majority of people North and South for decades,saving the Governments in both jurisdictions countless millions.
Perhaps given the ingratitude and downright offensiveness the Church should withdraw their services,reallocate them to grateful populations in the Third World,and let the Government and tax payers,North and South,take full responsibility for Health and Education.
The Government should sideline the orders until they pay their bills.
And religion should have no role in hospitals.
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 01:02:32 PM
Why then are so many in the North and South clamouring to get into "Catholic" schools?
Wanting to get into a catholic school has nothing to do with who actually owns the estate and who funds the school. You stated that the Church and orders should 'withdraw their services,reallocate them to grateful populations in the Third World' and I am pointing out the fact that they would have nothing to take away. The schools would be no different if they all left in the morning. In fact, in many instances, the schools would be better off.
It's heartening to see the ordinary people of Ireland express outrage at this pathetic arrangement. I think the tide is finally turning on these religious orders. Now we just need our government to grow a set of balls, compulsory purchase order for say 3m for the land less 3m credit in lieu of unpaid abuse fees and we are good to go with the key piece of health infrastructure.
religious orders should be nowhere near children
end of story
Ok.How about the Church and faithful withdraw their (mainly voluntary) services in all aspects of Irish Life including charity (SVP),Chaplaincies etc
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 05:17:08 PM
Ok.How about the Church and faithful withdraw their (mainly voluntary) services in all aspects of Irish Life including charity (SVP),Chaplaincies etc
Yes, better not withdraw SDVP or people will have no other charity to pay to.
Only for the church we'd all be screwed.
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 05:17:08 PM
Ok.How about the Church and faithful withdraw their (mainly voluntary) services in all aspects of Irish Life including charity (SVP),Chaplaincies etc
Capitalise it and take it off the redress bill
If the Church presented the government with a bill for all its health,educational and social services provision for decades,the state would be bankrupt
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 06:15:55 PM
If the Church presented the government with a bill for all its health,educational and social services provision for decades,the state would be bankrupt
The state would tell them to shove it up their self righteous holes. Tony, the more I read your nonsense on here the more I think you should have been born 80 yrs ago. In the absence of a time machine you should probably turn Muslim and join Isis
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 08:30:49 AM
The Catholic Church has been instrumental in providing valued health care and educational services to the vast majority of people North and South for decades,saving the Governments in both jurisdictions countless millions.
Perhaps given the ingratitude and downright offensiveness the Church should withdraw their services,reallocate them to grateful populations in the Third World,and let the Government and tax payers,North and South,take full responsibility for Health and Education.
Doesn't bear thinking about what they did to children in Third World countries for decades considering their record here...
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 06:15:55 PM
If the Church presented the government with a bill for all its health,educational and social services provision for decades,the state would be bankrupt
Not in the North where the state has been funding education and health for the benefit of the non-state providers.
It is only comparatively recently that the Mater Hospital in Belfast became state funded.By the way are there many so called Catholic Schools who have clergy on the teaching staff these days? Unlike my day,when all Catholic Schools invariably had five or six clergy on teaching staff and the School Principal was invariably a priest or nun.
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 07:46:38 PM
It is only comparatively recently that the Mater Hospital in Belfast became state funded.By the way are there many so called Catholic Schools who have clergy on the teaching staff these days? Unlike my day,when all Catholic Schools invariably had five or six clergy on teaching staff and the School Principal was invariably a priest or nun.
true had the misfortune to be taught by a few of them... most either perverts or sadists
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 07:46:38 PM
It is only comparatively recently that the Mater Hospital in Belfast became state funded.By the way are there many so called Catholic Schools who have clergy on the teaching staff these days? Unlike my day,when all Catholic Schools invariably had five or six clergy on teaching staff and the School Principal was invariably a priest or nun.
While the Mater came into NHS control in 1972, it was funded by the state since the beginning of the welfare state after the war.
There are no clergy teaching or principals in any schools in N.Ireland. One school in NI has a nun as its principal, otherwise there are no members of religious orders working as principals or teachers in NI.
Quote from: longballin on April 22, 2017, 08:14:11 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 07:46:38 PM
It is only comparatively recently that the Mater Hospital in Belfast became state funded.By the way are there many so called Catholic Schools who have clergy on the teaching staff these days? Unlike my day,when all Catholic Schools invariably had five or six clergy on teaching staff and the School Principal was invariably a priest or nun.
true had the misfortune to be taught by a few of them... most either perverts or sadists
Sure they can't find enough priests to man the churches never mind schools.
Quote from: longballin on April 22, 2017, 08:14:11 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 07:46:38 PM
It is only comparatively recently that the Mater Hospital in Belfast became state funded.By the way are there many so called Catholic Schools who have clergy on the teaching staff these days? Unlike my day,when all Catholic Schools invariably had five or six clergy on teaching staff and the School Principal was invariably a priest or nun.
true had the misfortune to be taught by a few of them... most either perverts or sadists
Well said.
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 06:15:55 PM
If the Church presented the government with a bill for all its health,educational and social services provision for decades,the state would be bankrupt
Church now morally bankrupt as details of what went on continue to emerge
Well,that being the case,how much control does the Church have on modern education,or on healthcare?
My memories of school and the clergy therein are thankfully fond ones.I or no one else I heard of had any experience of any malpractice from any one of these fine men,all doing their best for students while living with a vow of poverty (though ironically there was one lay teacher,married with kids,who had a notorious reputation and was eventually convicted for abuse,and that was back in the 80s).I also went on priest led school trips abroad,with no problems whatsoever.
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 09:21:01 PM
Well,that being the case,how much control does the Church have on modern education,or on healthcare?
My memories of school and the clergy therein are thankfully fond ones.I or no one else I heard of had any experience of any malpractice from any one of these fine men,all doing their best for students while living with a vow of poverty (though ironically there was one lay teacher,married with kids,who had a notorious reputation and was eventually convicted for abuse,and that was back in the 80s).I also went on priest led school trips abroad,with no problems whatsoever.
Your head's full of magic Tony... vow of poverty ::) living off the backs of the people in their big parish houses driving the best of cars...
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 09:21:01 PM
Well,that being the case,how much control does the Church have on modern education,or on healthcare?
My memories of school and the clergy therein are thankfully fond ones.I or no one else I heard of had any experience of any malpractice from any one of these fine men,all doing their best for students while living with a vow of poverty (though ironically there was one lay teacher,married with kids,who had a notorious reputation and was eventually convicted for abuse,and that was back in the 80s).I also went on priest led school trips abroad,with no problems whatsoever.
No they didn't. Priests in schools received their salary like any other teacher. Only nuns and brothers had their pay taken by their orders and were given a meagre allowance to live on.
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 09:21:01 PM
Well,that being the case,how much control does the Church have on modern education,or on healthcare?
In NI, the Church has the following controls:
1. It has formed the N.Ireland Council for Catholic Education which has a number of bishops working with some representatives of religious orders. They control the direction of the Catholic schools in terms of their ethos and religious teaching. They will appoint representatives to the Boards of Governors of all schools who are the managers of the schools. Some schools do not follow their edicts, e.g. they have demanded an end to academic selection but his has not been followed by every grammar school where the Boards of Governors still have their own opinions and are in law the school managers. The NICCE also appoints the membership of the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and it is the nominal owner of the school estate that it handed over to the state.
2. CCMS is controlled by the representatives of the Church. It is the employing authority for Catholic Maintained schools but not grammar schools. It provides HR facilities for the schools and pays the teachers on their behalf. It looks after development of the schools estate and the curriculum standards.
3. Each school has a Board of Governors since the Church accepted the deal for full funding all Boards have a 4:3:1:1 ratio of governors. 4 Church reps, 3 State reps, 1 teacher rep and 1 parent rep. So, the Church doesn't have a majority control of school Boards.
The priests Vincentians all lived in the College and shared a Hillman Imp.
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 05:17:08 PM
Ok.How about the Church and faithful withdraw their (mainly voluntary) services in all aspects of Irish Life including charity (SVP),Chaplaincies etc
SVP is run by lay people in the republic for the most part. my mother is involved with them
chaplaincy isn't voluntary, they get paid for it in most cases and its indoctrination by another means
http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/health/its-not-acceptable-that-women-have-to-fight-for-healthcare-dr-ciara-kelly-slams-proposed-maternity-hospital-move-35646104.html
Dr Ciara Kelly has lashed out against move to make the Sisters ;of Charity the sole owners of the new National Maternity Hospital
Dr. Kelly criticised the religious order in showing a "significant failure of atonement" in failing to pay off their outstanding debt to the redress scheme, adding that there was a "huge anger" among the public.
"The big thing is about the ethos. There is a long history of conflict between the church and providing women's health in this country. The church does not approve of contraception, sterilisation, IVF, egg freezing," Dr. Kelly said.
"It's not acceptable that women have to fight for healthcare in this country."
Surely the government could draft and pass legislation to simply cease the land and properties belonging to the orders to the value they owe and do it now.
More than likely be unconstitutional - right to private property etc.
Quote from: Rossfan on April 23, 2017, 08:18:20 PM
More than likely be unconstitutional - right to private property etc.
except its not private
a citizen doesn't own it
Of course it's private property. It's not owned by the State.
Doesn't matter if it's an individual, a company, Co operative, religious body or whatever.
Quote from: Rossfan on April 23, 2017, 10:07:15 PM
Of course it's private property. It's not owned by the State.
Doesn't matter if it's an individual, a company, Co operative, religious body or whatever.
If someone or organisation owes a considerable sum to the state or anyone, then the court is used to recover the debt, the bailiffs go in and cease the assets to cover the debt. So, what is stopping the Government doing this with the support of the people and the law.
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on April 23, 2017, 10:33:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 23, 2017, 10:07:15 PM
Of course it's private property. It's not owned by the State.
Doesn't matter if it's an individual, a company, Co operative, religious body or whatever.
If someone or organisation owes a considerable sum to the state or anyone, then the court is used to recover the debt, the bailiffs go in and cease the assets to cover the debt. So, what is stopping the Government doing this with the support of the people and the law.
I don't think they strictly owe a debt to the state legally rather they volunteered to foot some of the bill. Legally I think it's not binding but morally it should be. Unfortunately these groups lost any morals they had a long time ago.
I don't know why a compulsory purchase cannot be done like it is when building roads etc. Suppose cowards in goverment are afraid the would awaken the religious right. FG couldn't have that.
Quote from: Itchy on April 23, 2017, 11:22:54 PM
I don't know why a compulsory purchase cannot be done like it is when building roads etc. Suppose cowards in goverment are afraid the would awaken the religious right. FG couldn't have that.
You can have a compulsory purchase, but development land in Dublin 4 would be rather expensive. Also compulsory purchase is on the basis of certain acts, mostly housing and roads, building a hospital might not be on this list.
t.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on April 22, 2017, 09:15:11 PM
Quote from: longballin on April 22, 2017, 08:14:11 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 07:46:38 PM
It is only comparatively recently that the Mater Hospital in Belfast became state funded.By the way are there many so called Catholic Schools who have clergy on the teaching staff these days? Unlike my day,when all Catholic Schools invariably had five or six clergy on teaching staff and the School Principal was invariably a priest or nun.
true had the misfortune to be taught by a few of them... most either perverts or sadists
Well said.
I had a few priests who taught me. None were sadists and to the best of my knowledge nor were any of them perverts
Same here.
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 22, 2017, 05:29:31 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 05:17:08 PM
Ok.How about the Church and faithful withdraw their (mainly voluntary) services in all aspects of Irish Life including charity (SVP),Chaplaincies etc
Yes, better not withdraw SDVP or people will have no other charity to pay to.
Only for the church we'd all be screwed.
irony!
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 25, 2017, 10:22:16 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 24, 2017, 11:47:45 AM
Same here.
Same here.
same here,
a couple of them were hard nuts but no worse then their lay counterparts. this was in the mid nineties though and the real beatings were over by then.
i meet them now and again those teacher priests and i feel sorry for them. retired from teaching and semi retired from Parrish's there is a bit of the lost soul about them.
unlike life long parish priests they lived a largely normal life, went to work every day had lay colleagues even superiors, interacted with with them as equals heard about there lives and struggles over the lunch tables opposed to in the confessional or whatever.
they never really seemed to take to parish life and were always really keen to talk about school days and other pupils and teachers.
on the topic in question the catholic church has never done anything, anything, that wasn't in its own interests and to increase or consolidate its power.
every hospital, every school, was there to increase Catholic control of the people in every possible aspect of their lives, from the cradle to the grave.
My uncle was a priest in Korea. Please desist in classing all missionary priests as paedos.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 25, 2017, 02:32:10 PM
My uncle was a priest in Korea. Please desist in classing all missionary priests as paedos.
North or South?
Quote from: guy crouchback on April 25, 2017, 11:14:20 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 25, 2017, 10:22:16 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 24, 2017, 11:47:45 AM
Same here.
Same here.
same here,
a couple of them were hard nuts but no worse then their lay counterparts. this was in the mid nineties though and the real beatings were over by then.
i meet them now and again those teacher priests and i feel sorry for them. retired from teaching and semi retired from Parrish's there is a bit of the lost soul about them.
unlike life long parish priests they lived a largely normal life, went to work every day had lay colleagues even superiors, interacted with with them as equals heard about there lives and struggles over the lunch tables opposed to in the confessional or whatever.
they never really seemed to take to parish life and were always really keen to talk about school days and other pupils and teachers.
on the topic in question the catholic church has never done anything, anything, that wasn't in its own interests and to increase or consolidate its power.
every hospital, every school, was there to increase Catholic control of the people in every possible aspect of their lives, from the cradle to the grave.
Yip,
A hard nut is indeed a fully grown adult intimidating and beating lumps out of teenagers.. ::)
Quote from: johnneycool on April 25, 2017, 02:58:37 PM
Quote from: guy crouchback on April 25, 2017, 11:14:20 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 25, 2017, 10:22:16 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 24, 2017, 11:47:45 AM
Same here.
Same here.
same here,
a couple of them were hard nuts but no worse then their lay counterparts. this was in the mid nineties though and the real beatings were over by then.
i meet them now and again those teacher priests and i feel sorry for them. retired from teaching and semi retired from Parrish's there is a bit of the lost soul about them.
unlike life long parish priests they lived a largely normal life, went to work every day had lay colleagues even superiors, interacted with with them as equals heard about there lives and struggles over the lunch tables opposed to in the confessional or whatever.
they never really seemed to take to parish life and were always really keen to talk about school days and other pupils and teachers.
on the topic in question the catholic church has never done anything, anything, that wasn't in its own interests and to increase or consolidate its power.
every hospital, every school, was there to increase Catholic control of the people in every possible aspect of their lives, from the cradle to the grave.
Yip,
A hard nut is indeed a fully grown adult intimidating and beating lumps out of teenagers.. ::)
??? indeed
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 25, 2017, 10:22:16 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 24, 2017, 11:47:45 AM
Same here.
Same here.
Not the same here.
I was in a boarding school in he late 60 when kids were a lot more innocent than their counterparts are today. In my first couple of years I had no idea why any of the older boys were terrified to go and see the matron, no matter how sick they were. I did know that the reverend president was very fond of visiting boys who were sent there but he was only mentioned in whispers.
I did know that the second in command, another priest, hated him and the feeling was mutual. Years later, I found the reason was because the second man know of what he got up to any time he could get boys on their own. I'm don't think anyone else on the staff knew what was going on because most folk then lived in a state of denial. Priests could do no wrong. Period.
When the old bastard died of a heart attack in the middle of a bog in Roscommon, I thought that the world had become a safer place for kids. Haven't changed my mind since then.
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on April 25, 2017, 02:42:26 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 25, 2017, 02:32:10 PM
My uncle was a priest in Korea. Please desist in classing all missionary priests as paedos.
North or South?
Sorry, South. Kwanju (sp) and Seoul a while too I think.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 25, 2017, 08:50:50 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on April 25, 2017, 02:42:26 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 25, 2017, 02:32:10 PM
My uncle was a priest in Korea. Please desist in classing all missionary priests as paedos.
North or South?
Sorry, South. Kwanju (sp) and Seoul a while too I think.
Columban?
Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 26, 2017, 07:14:26 AM
Quote from: Rois on April 25, 2017, 09:12:03 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 25, 2017, 08:50:50 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on April 25, 2017, 02:42:26 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 25, 2017, 02:32:10 PM
My uncle was a priest in Korea. Please desist in classing all missionary priests as paedos.
North or South?
Sorry, South. Kwanju (sp) and Seoul a while too I think.
Columban?
Yep.
I've got one of those uncles too - Peru for him. Back in Navan for years taking courses. His cousin (my dad's too) was also in Korea as a priest - am sure would have met your uncle.
Quote from: longballin on April 22, 2017, 06:23:09 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on April 22, 2017, 08:30:49 AM
The Catholic Church has been instrumental in providing valued health care and educational services to the vast majority of people North and South for decades,saving the Governments in both jurisdictions countless millions.
Perhaps given the ingratitude and downright offensiveness the Church should withdraw their services,reallocate them to grateful populations in the Third World,and let the Government and tax payers,North and South,take full responsibility for Health and Education.
Doesn't bear thinking about what they did to children in Third World countries for decades considering their record here...
R.T.E. did an "expose" on that and ended up paying out thousands of the licence payers money in compensation and legal fees due to their completely untruthful allegations. They were so arrogant
Of course we have the usual Sinn Fein turnaround when they see how the wind is blowing. Their representative on the hospital board Macdonnacha who voted in favour now wants the decision reconsidered. Such hypocrisy
If control of vital functions usually carried out by the state is handed over to private organizations like churches, it's a sign of a weak state.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on April 26, 2017, 09:57:26 PM
If control of vital functions usually carried out by the state is handed over to private organizations like churches, it's a sign of a weak state.
But the state prohibited the education of Catholics leaving the Church as the only option, hence, it built the foundation of the current system and took control.
This is very interesting.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/diarmaid-ferriter-st-vincent-s-was-built-with-public-money-1.3065142?mode=amp
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on April 26, 2017, 09:57:26 PM
If control of vital functions usually carried out by the state is handed over to private organizations like churches, it's a sign of a weak state.
It was very poor in 1922 .
And since then has never really focused on accountability.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/mulvey-its-not-possible-for-nuns-to-hand-over-maternity-hospital-land-as-it-is-tied-up-with-loans-35665144.html