The Paudie O'Se Cup

[cavanmaniac]

You can talk endlessly about new formats and what have you (and sure why not, it's a bit of craic) but any progress with regard to these fantasy-land redrawing of boundaries, group stages, champions league formats, multiple tiers and Pyramidic Paidis blah blah must begin with the removal of deeply entrenched provincial championships or at least a dramatic dilution in the power their councils and their politicians exert.

This is the reason why any and all nascent championship structural modifications, that didn't preserve the sanctity of the provincial championships and councils, simply gained zero traction. The back door, and super eights only got off the drawing board and got a hearing on the basis that they didn't lay a finger on the provinces or threaten the mini fiefdoms they are. Their architects knew this better than anyone offering the well-intentioned yet ultimately hopeless panacea we like to amuse ourselves with.

[Dire Ear]

Brolly on the Sunday game last night talking

Stopped reading after that. Nobody with any sense pays any attention to Brolly. I didn't watch the Sunday game last night but i bet he didn't talk about the games and how they were won and lost like he is paid to do.

100

[BennyCake]

Anyone advocating a Champions League style c'ship needs to look at the super 8's. Essentially Roscommon are a top 8 team, and they've been well beaten by Tyrone and Donegal who are also top 8. If this is the case with the Super 8's, why would a CL format be any different?

Say, 16 teams were in the AI race. That includes Div 2 teams Cork (stuffed by Kerry/Tyrone), Down (stuffed by Donegal), Clare (stuffed by Kerry). Other teams like Cavan, Armagh, Tipp, Fermanagh, Laois would have been tanked in this years Super 8's

[weareros]

You can talk endlessly about new formats and what have you (and sure why not, it's a bit of craic) but any progress with regard to these fantasy-land redrawing of boundaries, group stages, champions league formats, multiple tiers and Pyramidic Paidis blah blah must begin with the removal of deeply entrenched provincial championships or at least a dramatic dilution in the power their councils and their politicians exert.

This is the reason why any and all nascent championship structural modifications, that didn't preserve the sanctity of the provincial championships and councils, simply gained zero traction. The back door, and super eights only got off the drawing board and got a hearing on the basis that they didn't lay a finger on the provinces or threaten the mini fiefdoms they are. Their architects knew this better than anyone offering the well-intentioned yet ultimately hopeless panacea we like to amuse ourselves with.

I agree the provincial system is bust. But being rid of it won't solve for the widening gap between counties causing these  shooting fish in a barrel contests that less and less are interested in watching. The day will come when rather than enter the silly Paidi O'Sé cup, counties won't enter the senior championship at all.

While we can never solve population advantages, the money advantage  issue could be somewhat solved by preventing sponsors at a county level and diverting this to a central fund with each county allowed the same amount of money to prepare a county team. It's an amateur game but money buys a lot of advantages. So how can we at least have a level playing field?

[Rossfan]

You can't with the population imbalances.
Professionalism with all players paid by Croke Park might but that won't happen for ethos and sustainability reasons.
Things like splitting Dublin or amalgamations of small Counties or Hurling Counties might too but is just as unlikely.

Wonder what would happen if say Waterford decided not to enter any County football competitions next year?

[Blowitupref]

You can talk endlessly about new formats and what have you (and sure why not, it's a bit of craic) but any progress with regard to these fantasy-land redrawing of boundaries, group stages, champions league formats, multiple tiers and Pyramidic Paidis blah blah must begin with the removal of deeply entrenched provincial championships or at least a dramatic dilution in the power their councils and their politicians exert.

This is the reason why any and all nascent championship structural modifications, that didn't preserve the sanctity of the provincial championships and councils, simply gained zero traction. The back door, and super eights only got off the drawing board and got a hearing on the basis that they didn't lay a finger on the provinces or threaten the mini fiefdoms they are. Their architects knew this better than anyone offering the well-intentioned yet ultimately hopeless panacea we like to amuse ourselves with.

Out of interest in the next few years what would it mean to Cavan players and supporters to win a senior provincial title? IMO a lot more that some 2nd tier competition and would leave lasting memories.

[Rossfan]

Why is it assumed  if there is a "2nd Tier"  that 2nd tier teams won't be in the Provincial Championships?

[Blowitupref]

Why is it assumed  if there is a "2nd Tier"  that 2nd tier teams won't be in the Provincial Championships?

Not assuming anything. I believe a provincial title will carry more value for players and supporters for a county that doesn't win them very often than a 2nd tier title would.

[Rossfan]

The chances are you'd be a 1st tier team anyway if you were  good enough to win a Provincial.

[cavanmaniac]

Out of interest in the next few years what would it mean to Cavan players and supporters to win a senior provincial title? IMO a lot more that some 2nd tier competition and would leave lasting memories.

You're right and I agree Cavan players and supporters would be very happy to win a provincial title, not to mention Fermanagh and others etc. but my post was made with the wider view in mind that as long as you have provincial councils and titles as your starting point, you set off on a fundamentally iniquitous basis that makes all future structural changes moot. Witness the debate on how certain teams arrived in the Super 8s after a tough enough road compared to, for example Roscommon. There's where the provincial system gets you - it just skews and imbalances everything from the get go.
How happy Cavan folk would be to win one is a separate, more parochial and selfish issue entirely.

Btw, not advocating for any of the alternative systems doing the rounds either, just making this point.

[outinfront]

Provincials should remain but not be linked to the all Ireland competition, then some form of groups, leagues, straight knockout, whatever, should commence  with no back door as it's too demanding.
Any amount of rejigging will not do away with dominance at the top.  Tiering seems to have worked well for hurling but the coverage and promotion of any of the lesser comps has been woeful. 

[Captain Obvious]

You have to wonder about the possibility of Kerry being able to reach the All Ireland semi final with wins over Clare, Cork and a Kildare team who are no longer in the championship.

Not a lot different to how Kerry have reached their last number of semi finals at least Kildare might put it up to them more than say Clare did in that All Ireland quarter final in 2016.

[AQMP]

We bet Galway in 2012.  Not too relevant but just wanted to get that in.

[APM]

You can talk endlessly about new formats and what have you (and sure why not, it's a bit of craic) but any progress with regard to these fantasy-land redrawing of boundaries, group stages, champions league formats, multiple tiers and Pyramidic Paidis blah blah must begin with the removal of deeply entrenched provincial championships or at least a dramatic dilution in the power their councils and their politicians exert.

This is the reason why any and all nascent championship structural modifications, that didn't preserve the sanctity of the provincial championships and councils, simply gained zero traction. The back door, and super eights only got off the drawing board and got a hearing on the basis that they didn't lay a finger on the provinces or threaten the mini fiefdoms they are. Their architects knew this better than anyone offering the well-intentioned yet ultimately hopeless panacea we like to amuse ourselves with.

The qualifiers and super 8s have already devalued the provincial championships in a serious way.  It used to be that a provincial winner was one win from an AI final. After the introduction of the qualifiers you were 2 wins from an AI Final.  Now the provincial winners probably need to win three games (two super 8 games and a semi final) to get to the All-Ireland final.  A losing provincial finalist, obviously just has to win one extra game to get the same stage as a provincial winner in the All-Ireland Competition. Central Council has severely undermined the provincial championships with the backdoor and super 8s and the provincial councils haven't batted an eyelid despite this supposed political power. 

Despite all the above and the serious inequities around the provincial championships, I wouldn't like to see any further demise, if only because it remains meaningful in Ulster.  At the moment a provincial win would be a huge thing for Armagh (10 years since last success), Down (24 years), Derry (20 years), Cavan (21 years) and Fermanagh (never).  Given where they are at at the moment, an Ulster Championship win for Cavan could be the catalyst the greater success.  It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that one or two of these teams will emerge to win Ulster in the next five years. 

With the disparities in numbers and fewer established football counties in other provinces, I would accept the arguments of the critics. However, Connacht has been won by every county since 1994 and is arguably the most competitive with 3 of the 5 teams in Division 1. With four of the six Munster teams in Division 1 and 2, it should be a much more competitive affair.  No point saying anything about Leinster at this stage, although you would be hopeful that Kildare will continue to develop after this year and eventually give Dublin a decent challenge. 

Why is it assumed  if there is a "2nd Tier"  that 2nd tier teams won't be in the Provincial Championships?

Not assuming anything. I believe a provincial title will carry more value for players and supporters for a county that doesn't win them very often than a 2nd tier title would.

As a supporter, I would say that winning a second tier competition would be meaningless and I think the concept is a disaster.  Niall Ewings article with Kieran Shannon sums it up quite well for me. Its worth asking: How many would turn up to watch a Paidi O'Se final in Croke Park?  How much coverage would the media give such a game? What would happen when the GAA eventually decided that instead of being played before the Sam Maguire final, it was played before the semi-final, and then to some non-descript date in the middle of July? Would the players want to play, or would they lose interest as in the Tommy Murphy Cup? Would they go to the states as soon as they were put out of the provincial championship?  Would they bother to play with the county at all, given the reduced value and prestige associated with being an inter-county player for a tier 2 team?

One last thought for now:  Who decided on the Christy Ring structure in hurling.
Pat Dunny (Kildare), Liam Griffin (Wexford), P. J. O'Grady (Limerick), Ger Loughnane (Clare), Cyril Farrell (Galway), Jimmy O'Reilly (Down), Willie Ring (Cork), Pat Daly (GAA Games Development Officer) and Nicky English (Tipperary). 

The majority from established Tier 1 hurling counties. 

[Bord na Mona man]

One last thought for now:  Who decided on the Christy Ring structure in hurling.
Pat Dunny (Kildare), Liam Griffin (Wexford), P. J. O'Grady (Limerick), Ger Loughnane (Clare), Cyril Farrell (Galway), Jimmy O'Reilly (Down), Willie Ring (Cork), Pat Daly (GAA Games Development Officer) and Nicky English (Tipperary). 

The majority from established Tier 1 hurling counties.

Just like the advocates of tiered football championships for the most part imagine the cut off being somewhere below where their own county ranks.
Brolly's ramblings about Roscommon not being worthy of top tier football and Kevin McStay being driven to near lunacy because of this might be a reality check for some about where the partitionist axe may fall.