Brolly on the Sunday game last night talking about how Armagh and Roscommon game should have been the final of the second tier competition and that Roscommon don't belong in the race for Sam.
This debate has gained obvious traction and I'd be concerned about where it will end up:
How would we decide who should be in the so-called Super 8s if we moved to this new tiered format. If teams like Roscommon don't belong with the big boys then where do you draw the line. Kildare were beaten in every game this year in Division 1 this year. Should they be there. They were beaten by Carlow in their first round of Leinster, but they have went on to be on of the stories of the championship. What about Cavan, who gave Tyrone a good game this year and like Roscommon have just been promoted to Div 1, having been relegated last year. What about Meath who nearly knocked out Tyrone this year and have been slumbering in Division 2?
If you want to kill a tiered championship stone-dead, give it a name like 'The Paidi O'Sé Cup'.
FFS, we have perfectly adequate terminology that everyone is comfortable with for this as it is, i.e. Senior, Intermediate and Junior.
Regarding which teams should take part in a second tier All Ireland football championship I think the solution is quite simple.The Sam Maguire Cup should be confined to those teams who have qualified to be in Division One and Division Two of the following year's National Leagues. Likewise the second tiered competition should consist of those teams which are in the following year's Division Three and Division Four of the Leagues.
That would ensure that, in the main, all teams would be competing in a competition mainly of their own standard and thus more competitive.The present provincial system is totally unfair and inequitable and should not be used as a basis for any Championship structure.
Both competitions should be treated equally in terms of number of games,marketing and presentation.(In other words each tier one game should be preceded by a tier two game as a curtain raiser)In this way there would be a huge incentive for the "lesser" teams to win the second tier competition, the final of which should be played on All Ireland Senior football final weekend.
Quote from: Derry Optimist on July 23, 2018, 11:51:04 AM
Regarding which teams should take part in a second tier All Ireland football championship I think the solution is quite simple.The Sam Maguire Cup should be confined to those teams who have qualified to be in Division One and Division Two of the following year's National Leagues. Likewise the second tiered competition should consist of those teams which are in the following year's Division Three and Division Four of the Leagues.
That would ensure that, in the main, all teams would be competing in a competition mainly of their own standard and thus more competitive.The present provincial system is totally unfair and inequitable and should not be used as a basis for any Championship structure.
Both competitions should be treated equally in terms of number of games,marketing and presentation.(In other words each tier one game should be preceded by a tier two game as a curtain raiser)In this way there would be a huge incentive for the "lesser" teams to win the second tier competition, the final of which should be played on All Ireland Senior football final weekend.
In advocating this competition, Joe Brolly was using Roscommon as an example of why there should be a second tier competition saying the don't belong in the top tier. But you are suggesting that Roscommon and at least 7 teams ranked lower than them (based on the 2018 league) should be in tier 1.
I don't agree with a second tier competition at all. But if we are saying that Roscommon doesn't belong in the top tier (and based on our performances in the super 8's it's hard to argue that we do!), we are effectively saying that only 7/8 teams belong in the top tier competition. Is that what people want? The sam maguire contested by 8 teams (and I'm ignoring the fact that dublin are ahead of everyone else).
Quote from: APM on July 23, 2018, 11:28:20 AM
Brolly on the Sunday game last night talking about how Armagh and Roscommon game should have been the final of the second tier competition and that Roscommon don't belong in the race for Sam.
This debate has gained obvious traction and I'd be concerned about where it will end up:
How would we decide who should be in the so-called Super 8s if we moved to this new tiered format. If teams like Roscommon don't belong with the big boys then where do you draw the line. Kildare were beaten in every game this year in Division 1 this year. Should they be there. They were beaten by Carlow in their first round of Leinster, but they have went on to be on of the stories of the championship. What about Cavan, who gave Tyrone a good game this year and like Roscommon have just been promoted to Div 1, having been relegated last year. What about Meath who nearly knocked out Tyrone this year and have been slumbering in Division 2?
Meath would be Junior C
Quote from: APM on July 23, 2018, 11:28:20 AM
Brolly on the Sunday game last night talking
Stopped reading after that. Nobody with any sense pays any attention to Brolly. I didn't watch the Sunday game last night but i bet he didn't talk about the games and how they were won and lost like he is paid to do.
Do away with Provincial Championships or if each council wants to run one fine but nothing to do with All Ireland. 8 groups of 4 with a team from each league 1-4. Play 3 games and top 2 in each group go into the race for the Sam Maguire, bottom 2 into the Paudi O Se, B,Intermediate whatever you want to call it.
Means at the start of the championship everybody is entered into the All Ireland but in most cases the Division 1 and 2 team will make it into senior championship last 16 though still potential for a surprise from division 3/4 like laois this year.
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 23, 2018, 01:42:45 PM
Quote from: APM on July 23, 2018, 11:28:20 AM
Brolly on the Sunday game last night talking
Stopped reading after that. Nobody with any sense pays any attention to Brolly. I didn't watch the Sunday game last night but i bet he didn't talk about the games and how they were won and lost like he is paid to do.
Lovely manners, not surprising given your moniker! Nice to see you have such an open mind.
I get it - you don't like Joe Brolly. What difference does it make whether my post was prompted by something said by Joe Brolly or Joe Bloggs. My first line could have been that John Horan is going to look at a tiered championship. Would that have made my post any more valid?
By Joe's logic 6 will play for Sam and 27 for the Paidi cup.
You could enter those who don't make the Super 8 into the Paudi Cup, but would the likes of say, Mayo this year, have any interest? Seriously doubt it.
So the earlier posited 8 groups of 4, top two into Sam and rest into Paudi might work.
Although, again, given only three games each in a group, there is always a chance a perceived top tier team might not make the Sam section in a particular year and so wouldn't bother their arse.
Maybe home and away games against everyone in the group to ensure the cream rises? Then each county gets a minimum seven championship games each summer, with the finalists getting ten.
Quote from: pbat on July 23, 2018, 03:46:19 PM
Do away with Provincial Championships or if each council wants to run one fine but nothing to do with All Ireland. 8 groups of 4 with a team from each league 1-4. Play 3 games and top 2 in each group go into the race for the Sam Maguire, bottom 2 into the Paudi O Se, B,Intermediate whatever you want to call it.
Means at the start of the championship everybody is entered into the All Ireland but in most cases the Division 1 and 2 team will make it into senior championship last 16 though still potential for a surprise from division 3/4 like laois this year.
This makes some sense, albeit there still is a big emotional attachment for the provincial championship.
This idea of a tiered championship should only be considered if those that are likely to be in the second tier are in favour. I doubt they would be.
If there is a tiered system you are effectively forcing a player to play a secondary competition simply because of where they were born. I am aware that happens at club level, but I am sick of that argument. If you are county standard, you can play junior championship for your club, but at least you will ultimately have an outlet for your talent at County level. There is no where else to go for an inter county player.
If you were a player like Matty Forde for instance, under some of the proposals he would rarely, if ever, play in the Sam Maguire. The logical thing to do in circumstance where a great player is denied senior championship is allow them to transfer. That's the last thing anyone would want.
Mismatches have always occurred and there was not much said about it. People just moan about it because they have to watch it on TV more regularly now. In a proposal like pbat's everyone has their day out, but the GAA can sell the rights to the latter stages and then we can all stop moaning.
Quote from: mrdeeds on July 23, 2018, 04:10:05 PM
By Joe's logic 6 will play for Sam and 27 for the Paidi cup.
This is where I'm at and I think tiering doesn't solve any of the problems it is meant to solve, but creates a whole lot of other issues! Let's be clear -
there is no super 8 - in recent years there has been one super team and one plausible challenger!
Let's say you took the teams in Division 1 this year, and the two promoted teams, that leaves 10.
- Super 1 (Dublin)
- Elite 3 or 4 Galway, Tyrone, Monaghan and maybe Donegal
- Very good 2 or 3: Kerry, Mayo, maybe Kildare
- Decent: Roscommon, Cavan
So if we are saying that having a tiered competition will reduce the number of mismatches, then consider the number of hammerings within this small group this year and last year:
Last year:
Dublin bt Monaghan by 10pts
Dublin bt Tyrone by 12 pts
Mayo bt Roscommon by 16pts
Kerry bt Galway by 8pts
Tyrone bt Roscommon by 18pts
Roscommon bt Galway by 9pts
Also, teams from outside this top group were recently beaten by teams that wouldn't make it into the top 10.
Carlow bt Kildare in 2018
Armagh bt Kildare in 2017
Tipp bt Cavan in 2017
Fermanagh bt Monaghan in 2018
Two years ago, Monaghan were beaten by Longford.
Less about football now is on the day. That used to be one of the real beauties of the game -
sure its all on the day! Its more predictable these days and there is no doubt that is affecting attendances. But when you do get an underdog winning, it is very special. Carlow beating Kildare this year was one of the highlights of the season. However, there can be as much of a gap between the teams ranked in 1 to 8, and the teams ranked 5 to 20. I think when you realise that, you come to the conclusion that having a tiered championship isn't the answer. However, it might give RTE an excuse to show fewer games.
Most teams from 2-18 could beat each other if the wind is blowing the right way with injuries, inclination and referees. Dublin are literally the only team immune from that, simply because they are ridiculously deep and ridiculously better than everyone.
Brolly's just talking his usual shíte to generate some publicity amidst a complete PR failure in the Super 8. Very few are excited about senior IC football right now.
Quote from: Syferus on July 23, 2018, 05:33:26 PM
Most teams from 2-18 could beat each other if the wind is blowing the right way with injuries, inclination and referees. Dublin are literally the only team immune from that, simply because they are ridiculously deep and ridiculously better than everyone.
Brolly's just talking his usual shíte to generate some publicity amidst a complete PR failure in the Super 8. Very few are excited about senior IC football right now.
Broadly agree - concern is that this has got traction and there seems to be a momentum towards it. You really wouldn't know what kind of shit the GAA hierarchy would come up with next, given that these are people that brought us the Sky Deal and the Super 8s!
Three words - OPEN f**king DRAW!!!
Quote from: APM on July 23, 2018, 03:50:04 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 23, 2018, 01:42:45 PM
Quote from: APM on July 23, 2018, 11:28:20 AM
Brolly on the Sunday game last night talking
Stopped reading after that. Nobody with any sense pays any attention to Brolly. I didn't watch the Sunday game last night but i bet he didn't talk about the games and how they were won and lost like he is paid to do.
Lovely manners, not surprising given your moniker! Nice to see you have such an open mind.
I get it - you don't like Joe Brolly. What difference does it make whether my post was prompted by something said by Joe Brolly or Joe Bloggs. My first line could have been that John Horan is going to look at a tiered championship. Would that have made my post any more valid?
My manners are better than Joe Brolly, i have a far more open mind than him also and can do it without seeking attention. No more valid as John Horan is a figure head with no power, he's there to cut ribbons and present cups.
The only thing that surprised me about brolly's incoherent ramblings last night is that he didn't suggest calling it the Joe Brolly cup. Maybe he didn't like the idea of putting his name to a second tier competition.
Quote from: criostlinn on July 23, 2018, 07:17:50 PM
The only thing that surprised me about brolly's incoherent ramblings last night is that he didn't suggest calling it the Joe Brolly cup. Maybe he didn't like the idea of putting his name to a second tier competition.
That name is already taken. Derry junior football champions win the Joe Brolly Cup.
Named after his grandfather.
Quote from: Syferus on July 23, 2018, 05:33:26 PM
Most teams from 2-18 could beat each other if the wind is blowing the right way with injuries, inclination and referees. Dublin are literally the only team immune from that, simply because they are ridiculously deep and ridiculously better than everyone.
Brolly's just talking his usual shíte to generate some publicity amidst a complete PR failure in the Super 8. Very few are excited about senior IC football right now.
I fell dirty agreeing with you but this is the nail on the head here.
Monaghan, Tyrone, Mayo, Donegal and Galway are all eminently beatable sides by anyone in the top 16 teams. Kildare, Meath, Fermanagh, Down and Roscommon have all proved in the last 16 months.
This is the way it was years ago too. Monaghan, Sligo and Antrim could put Kerry to the pin of their collar, Cork were regularly beating them. What is now recalled as a great Tyrone team were handed championship defeats by Mayo, Derry, Meath, Cork, Laois, Donegal and Sligo. An Armagh team that was respected the length of the country were beaten by Monaghan, Fermanagh and Wexford. There was potential for great upset and they were celebrated as great victories at the time.
The problem is now that with Dublin's dominance it belittles the quality of the other top 5 which in turn belittles the achievements of the teams who put it up to or defeat a top side.
Quote from: Syferus on July 23, 2018, 05:33:26 PM
Most teams from 2-18 could beat each other if the wind is blowing the right way with injuries, inclination and referees. Dublin are literally the only team immune from that, simply because they are ridiculously deep and ridiculously better than everyone.
Brolly's just talking his usual shíte to generate some publicity amidst a complete PR failure in the Super 8. Very few are excited about senior IC football right now.
Nail on the head!
We have entered the twilight zone of Scottish Premiership football. Dublin are Celtic. Loads of resources, loads of money, loads of options to make money, Big Support. All the rest in Scottish premier league football are much of a muchness!
Quote from: trileacman on July 23, 2018, 10:07:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on July 23, 2018, 05:33:26 PM
Most teams from 2-18 could beat each other if the wind is blowing the right way with injuries, inclination and referees. Dublin are literally the only team immune from that, simply because they are ridiculously deep and ridiculously better than everyone.
Brolly's just talking his usual shíte to generate some publicity amidst a complete PR failure in the Super 8. Very few are excited about senior IC football right now.
I fell dirty agreeing with you but this is the nail on the head here.
Monaghan, Tyrone, Mayo, Donegal and Galway are all eminently beatable sides by anyone in the top 16 teams. Kildare, Meath, Fermanagh, Down and Roscommon have all proved in the last 16 months.
This is the way it was years ago too. Monaghan, Sligo and Antrim could put Kerry to the pin of their collar, Cork were regularly beating them. What is now recalled as a great Tyrone team were handed championship defeats by Mayo, Derry, Meath, Cork, Laois, Donegal and Sligo. An Armagh team that was respected the length of the country were beaten by Monaghan, Fermanagh and Wexford. There was potential for great upset and they were celebrated as great victories at the time.
The problem is now that with Dublin's dominance it belittles the quality of the other top 5 which in turn belittles the achievements of the teams who put it up to or defeat a top side.
Defeats in a the knockout stages of the Championship, someone do the research, take for example since 2013, which teams have knocked Tyrone, Dublin, Donegal, Mayo and Kerry out of the Sam Maguire race? I'd imagine there are no shocks. Add in Monaghan (shocked by Longford once). Its clear that the days of the underdog are over in the GAA. Get the heads around this. Embrace the Tier because its coming.
One of the major issues being ignored at present is the wear and tear as well as time commitment undertaken by teams involved in the qualifiers if they manage to progress to the end of round 4 never mind another three games in the Super 8 regardless of success.
If Armagh had beaten Roscommon, not beyond the bounds of possibility on another day, and then took the similar beating that are being doled out to Roscommon would have nothing to show for a season, be demoralised after such trouncing and the overall effect on the players would be to seriously affect the following season with some no longer willing or able to keep going. That would be a first round provincial defeat, winning four games in five weeks and then three beatings in four weeks.
Therefore, any change to a tiered competition should remove the qualifier routes to cut down on the load placed on the 'weaker' teams. Start with round robin, finish with straight knock out and have no back door route from provincial competitions. That way all teams in a province have a chance to be successful underdogs against local rivals and possibly win the championship. They have round robin games against their league equivalents based on the positions that teams would assume in the league in the following year. This would give them a few games followed by a small number of knock out games for the best teams in the tier.
Three tiers would be necessary based on a combination of the results from the most recent league and the promotion/relegation situations for the next league format. 12 teams for the top tier to be reduced to eight for knockout so that the two relegated teams from Div 1 are included. Similar for intermediate and the remainder in junior. Provincial competitions run over a few weeks with all quarters on same weekend, same for semis and last week for final.
Just a suggestion.
Seriously, an open draw.
It's the only way.
Quote from: BennyCake on July 23, 2018, 11:05:36 PM
Seriously, an open draw.
It's the only way.
Still nope.
Quote from: criostlinn on July 23, 2018, 07:17:50 PM
The only thing that surprised me about brolly's incoherent ramblings last night is that he didn't suggest calling it the Joe Brolly cup. Maybe he didn't like the idea of putting his name to a second tier competition.
The Derry Junior Championship winners lift the Joe Brolly Cup ;-)
Time for an open draw.
Quote from: Jinxy on July 24, 2018, 12:19:59 AM
Time for an open draw.
Agreed. And let's have four of them based on province.
You can talk endlessly about new formats and what have you (and sure why not, it's a bit of craic) but any progress with regard to these fantasy-land redrawing of boundaries, group stages, champions league formats, multiple tiers and Pyramidic Paidis blah blah must begin with the removal of deeply entrenched provincial championships or at least a dramatic dilution in the power their councils and their politicians exert.
This is the reason why any and all nascent championship structural modifications, that didn't preserve the sanctity of the provincial championships and councils, simply gained zero traction. The back door, and super eights only got off the drawing board and got a hearing on the basis that they didn't lay a finger on the provinces or threaten the mini fiefdoms they are. Their architects knew this better than anyone offering the well-intentioned yet ultimately hopeless panacea we like to amuse ourselves with.
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 23, 2018, 01:42:45 PM
Quote from: APM on July 23, 2018, 11:28:20 AM
Brolly on the Sunday game last night talking
Stopped reading after that. Nobody with any sense pays any attention to Brolly. I didn't watch the Sunday game last night but i bet he didn't talk about the games and how they were won and lost like he is paid to do.
100
Anyone advocating a Champions League style c'ship needs to look at the super 8's. Essentially Roscommon are a top 8 team, and they've been well beaten by Tyrone and Donegal who are also top 8. If this is the case with the Super 8's, why would a CL format be any different?
Say, 16 teams were in the AI race. That includes Div 2 teams Cork (stuffed by Kerry/Tyrone), Down (stuffed by Donegal), Clare (stuffed by Kerry). Other teams like Cavan, Armagh, Tipp, Fermanagh, Laois would have been tanked in this years Super 8's
Quote from: cavanmaniac on July 24, 2018, 03:31:16 AM
You can talk endlessly about new formats and what have you (and sure why not, it's a bit of craic) but any progress with regard to these fantasy-land redrawing of boundaries, group stages, champions league formats, multiple tiers and Pyramidic Paidis blah blah must begin with the removal of deeply entrenched provincial championships or at least a dramatic dilution in the power their councils and their politicians exert.
This is the reason why any and all nascent championship structural modifications, that didn't preserve the sanctity of the provincial championships and councils, simply gained zero traction. The back door, and super eights only got off the drawing board and got a hearing on the basis that they didn't lay a finger on the provinces or threaten the mini fiefdoms they are. Their architects knew this better than anyone offering the well-intentioned yet ultimately hopeless panacea we like to amuse ourselves with.
I agree the provincial system is bust. But being rid of it won't solve for the widening gap between counties causing these shooting fish in a barrel contests that less and less are interested in watching. The day will come when rather than enter the silly Paidi O'Sé cup, counties won't enter the senior championship at all.
While we can never solve population advantages, the money advantage issue could be somewhat solved by preventing sponsors at a county level and diverting this to a central fund with each county allowed the same amount of money to prepare a county team. It's an amateur game but money buys a lot of advantages. So how can we at least have a level playing field?
You can't with the population imbalances.
Professionalism with all players paid by Croke Park might but that won't happen for ethos and sustainability reasons.
Things like splitting Dublin or amalgamations of small Counties or Hurling Counties might too but is just as unlikely.
Wonder what would happen if say Waterford decided not to enter any County football competitions next year?
Quote from: cavanmaniac on July 24, 2018, 03:31:16 AM
You can talk endlessly about new formats and what have you (and sure why not, it's a bit of craic) but any progress with regard to these fantasy-land redrawing of boundaries, group stages, champions league formats, multiple tiers and Pyramidic Paidis blah blah must begin with the removal of deeply entrenched provincial championships or at least a dramatic dilution in the power their councils and their politicians exert.
This is the reason why any and all nascent championship structural modifications, that didn't preserve the sanctity of the provincial championships and councils, simply gained zero traction. The back door, and super eights only got off the drawing board and got a hearing on the basis that they didn't lay a finger on the provinces or threaten the mini fiefdoms they are. Their architects knew this better than anyone offering the well-intentioned yet ultimately hopeless panacea we like to amuse ourselves with.
Out of interest in the next few years what would it mean to Cavan players and supporters to win a senior provincial title? IMO a lot more that some 2nd tier competition and would leave lasting memories.
Why is it assumed if there is a "2nd Tier" that 2nd tier teams won't be in the Provincial Championships?
Quote from: Rossfan on July 24, 2018, 12:59:46 PM
Why is it assumed if there is a "2nd Tier" that 2nd tier teams won't be in the Provincial Championships?
Not assuming anything. I believe a provincial title will carry more value for players and supporters for a county that doesn't win them very often than a 2nd tier title would.
The chances are you'd be a 1st tier team anyway if you were good enough to win a Provincial.
Quote from: Blowitupref on July 24, 2018, 12:53:46 PM
Out of interest in the next few years what would it mean to Cavan players and supporters to win a senior provincial title? IMO a lot more that some 2nd tier competition and would leave lasting memories.
You're right and I agree Cavan players and supporters would be very happy to win a provincial title, not to mention Fermanagh and others etc. but my post was made with the wider view in mind that as long as you have provincial councils and titles as your starting point, you set off on a fundamentally iniquitous basis that makes all future structural changes moot. Witness the debate on how certain teams arrived in the Super 8s after a tough enough road compared to, for example Roscommon. There's where the provincial system gets you - it just skews and imbalances everything from the get go.
How happy Cavan folk would be to win one is a separate, more parochial and selfish issue entirely.
Btw, not advocating for any of the alternative systems doing the rounds either, just making this point.
Provincials should remain but not be linked to the all Ireland competition, then some form of groups, leagues, straight knockout, whatever, should commence with no back door as it's too demanding.
Any amount of rejigging will not do away with dominance at the top. Tiering seems to have worked well for hurling but the coverage and promotion of any of the lesser comps has been woeful.
Quote from: hardstation on July 24, 2018, 02:25:20 PM
You have to wonder about the possibility of Kerry being able to reach the All Ireland semi final with wins over Clare, Cork and a Kildare team who are no longer in the championship.
Not a lot different to how Kerry have reached their last number of semi finals at least Kildare might put it up to them more than say Clare did in that All Ireland quarter final in 2016.
We bet Galway in 2012. Not too relevant but just wanted to get that in.
Quote from: cavanmaniac on July 24, 2018, 03:31:16 AM
You can talk endlessly about new formats and what have you (and sure why not, it's a bit of craic) but any progress with regard to these fantasy-land redrawing of boundaries, group stages, champions league formats, multiple tiers and Pyramidic Paidis blah blah must begin with the removal of deeply entrenched provincial championships or at least a dramatic dilution in the power their councils and their politicians exert.
This is the reason why any and all nascent championship structural modifications, that didn't preserve the sanctity of the provincial championships and councils, simply gained zero traction. The back door, and super eights only got off the drawing board and got a hearing on the basis that they didn't lay a finger on the provinces or threaten the mini fiefdoms they are. Their architects knew this better than anyone offering the well-intentioned yet ultimately hopeless panacea we like to amuse ourselves with.
The qualifiers and super 8s have already devalued the provincial championships in a serious way. It used to be that a provincial winner was one win from an AI final. After the introduction of the qualifiers you were 2 wins from an AI Final. Now the provincial winners probably need to win three games (two super 8 games and a semi final) to get to the All-Ireland final. A losing provincial finalist, obviously just has to win one extra game to get the same stage as a provincial winner in the All-Ireland Competition. Central Council has severely undermined the provincial championships with the backdoor and super 8s and the provincial councils haven't batted an eyelid despite this supposed political power.
Despite all the above and the serious inequities around the provincial championships, I wouldn't like to see any further demise, if only because it remains meaningful in Ulster. At the moment a provincial win would be a huge thing for Armagh (10 years since last success), Down (24 years), Derry (20 years), Cavan (21 years) and Fermanagh (never). Given where they are at at the moment, an Ulster Championship win for Cavan could be the catalyst the greater success. It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that one or two of these teams will emerge to win Ulster in the next five years.
With the disparities in numbers and fewer established football counties in other provinces, I would accept the arguments of the critics. However, Connacht has been won by every county since 1994 and is arguably the most competitive with 3 of the 5 teams in Division 1. With four of the six Munster teams in Division 1 and 2, it should be a much more competitive affair. No point saying anything about Leinster at this stage, although you would be hopeful that Kildare will continue to develop after this year and eventually give Dublin a decent challenge.
Quote from: Blowitupref on July 24, 2018, 01:32:05 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 24, 2018, 12:59:46 PM
Why is it assumed if there is a "2nd Tier" that 2nd tier teams won't be in the Provincial Championships?
Not assuming anything. I believe a provincial title will carry more value for players and supporters for a county that doesn't win them very often than a 2nd tier title would.
As a supporter, I would say that winning a second tier competition would be meaningless and I think the concept is a disaster. Niall Ewings article with Kieran Shannon sums it up quite well for me. Its worth asking: How many would turn up to watch a Paidi O'Se final in Croke Park? How much coverage would the media give such a game? What would happen when the GAA eventually decided that instead of being played before the Sam Maguire final, it was played before the semi-final, and then to some non-descript date in the middle of July? Would the players want to play, or would they lose interest as in the Tommy Murphy Cup? Would they go to the states as soon as they were put out of the provincial championship? Would they bother to play with the county at all, given the reduced value and prestige associated with being an inter-county player for a tier 2 team?
One last thought for now: Who decided on the Christy Ring structure in hurling.
Pat Dunny (Kildare), Liam Griffin (Wexford), P. J. O'Grady (Limerick), Ger Loughnane (Clare), Cyril Farrell (Galway), Jimmy O'Reilly (Down), Willie Ring (Cork), Pat Daly (GAA Games Development Officer) and Nicky English (Tipperary).
The majority from established Tier 1 hurling counties.
Quote from: APM on July 24, 2018, 03:10:42 PM
One last thought for now: Who decided on the Christy Ring structure in hurling.
Pat Dunny (Kildare), Liam Griffin (Wexford), P. J. O'Grady (Limerick), Ger Loughnane (Clare), Cyril Farrell (Galway), Jimmy O'Reilly (Down), Willie Ring (Cork), Pat Daly (GAA Games Development Officer) and Nicky English (Tipperary).
The majority from established Tier 1 hurling counties.
Just like the advocates of tiered football championships for the most part imagine the cut off being somewhere below where their own county ranks.
Brolly's ramblings about Roscommon not being worthy of top tier football and Kevin McStay being driven to near lunacy because of this might be a reality check for some about where the partitionist axe may fall.
So do ye want all 32 Counties in the one SHC?
Let the Div 1 teams play in Super 8 but not their provincial championship
All other teams play in the provincial championship with the winners going on to play the Paudie cup semi and finals
Quote from: Rossfan on July 24, 2018, 05:15:07 PM
So do ye want all 32 Counties in the one SHC?
Every county should have the option of entering the Liam McCarthy Cup.
Correct seeding and preliminary rounds will screen out the better ones who are capable of taking on the current top tier counties.
Partitioning a championship because a few dickhead pundits can't be arsed doing their homework on weaker counties is not good enough reason for me.
You do realise there are 63 adult hurlers in Longford?
Can't be many more in Louth Cavan and 7 or 8 other Counties.
They have their Championships, National Finals and big cups and advancement to the next level when they win (except for Kildare).
I don't recall hearing any complaints from the Rackard/Meagher Counties or indeed some of the Ring ones either.
Quote from: Rossfan on July 24, 2018, 08:25:24 PM
You do realise there are 63 adult hurlers in Longford?
Can't be many more in Louth Cavan and 7 or 8 other Counties.
They have their Championships, National Finals and big cups and advancement to the next level when they win (except for Kildare).
I don't recall hearing any complaints from the Rackard/Meagher Counties or indeed some of the Ring ones either.
How many of the lower tiered hurling counties take hurling as serious as football. I doubt there's many. Which is why people are so dead set against a tiered football championship.
There are 6 Hurling Counties and 2 real dual ones.
Laois/Offaly have some hurling territory.
After that football rules.
Quote from: Rossfan on July 24, 2018, 09:38:22 PM
There are 6 Hurling Counties and 2 real dual ones.
Laois/Offaly have some hurling territory.
After that football rules.
Dual - Galway and Cork?
The 6 counties I assume are tipp, Clare, limerick, Waterford, Wexford, Kilkenny.
It's even a stretch calling cork a dual county, football remains the poor relation there which is the defining characteristic of a hurling county.
Quote from: Rossfan on July 24, 2018, 08:25:24 PM
You do realise there are 63 adult hurlers in Longford?
Can't be many more in Louth Cavan and 7 or 8 other Counties.
They have their Championships, National Finals and big cups and advancement to the next level when they win (except for Kildare).
I don't recall hearing any complaints from the Rackard/Meagher Counties or indeed some of the Ring ones either.
The hurling system suits a large rump of counties who have little ambition to promote or improve at hurling.
They can hide in plan sight in the comfort of whatever tier they reside in.
The christy ring was rubbish for years. The difference between best and worst was huge and the best teams sometimes got one good game max out of it so there were complaints for years. The way it was done this year was promising.
Football is becoming like hurling where the gap between top and bottom is huge.
Can someone point to a time when these smaller counties competed at the top level in Hurling. I never remember any Ulster county competing. The gap has always been there.
Same applies in Football. When did Wexford, Carlow, Wicklow, Antrim, Sligo etc every really compete?
It will all end in tears.
Quote from: trailer on July 24, 2018, 10:26:09 PM
Can someone point to a time when these smaller counties competed at the top level in Hurling. I never remember any Ulster county competing. The gap has always been there.
Same applies in Football. When did Wexford, Carlow, Wicklow, Antrim, Sligo etc every really compete?
It will all end in tears.
Kildare in the mid to late 70s were a top 10 hurling team, never made the breakthrough Offaly subsequently did.
Every now and again you got a shock in the football but never the hurling. Leitrim winning connacht, sligo winning connacht, clare munster, louth in all but name leinster. Never has that happened in the hurling. It is getting further away in the football. The closest you get is roscommon who are the third best in connacht winning connacht but they aren't that far behind on a good day.
The effort required to be put in is too great and unsustainable.
Quote from: trailer on July 24, 2018, 10:26:09 PM
Can someone point to a time when these smaller counties competed at the top level in Hurling. I never remember any Ulster county competing. The gap has always been there.
Same applies in Football. When did Wexford, Carlow, Wicklow, Antrim, Sligo etc every really compete?
It will all end in tears.
In the colour television era, Kilkenny have won All Irelands with a population of less than 80k and Offaly with a population less than 60k.
Antrim got to an All Ireland final in 1989.
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on July 24, 2018, 10:35:25 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 24, 2018, 10:26:09 PM
Can someone point to a time when these smaller counties competed at the top level in Hurling. I never remember any Ulster county competing. The gap has always been there.
Same applies in Football. When did Wexford, Carlow, Wicklow, Antrim, Sligo etc every really compete?
It will all end in tears.
In the colour television era, Kilkenny have won All Irelands with a population of less than 80k and Offaly with a population less than 60k.
Antrim got to an All Ireland final in 1989.
Mea Cupla. You're talking about population I was substituting smaller for weaker.
I think the provincial system model is an anachronism- a throwback to the days when the horse and cart were the principal modes of transport and the idea of Kerry playing Monaghan in Clones just couldn't happen without all concerned losing considerable amounts of money.THere certainly would not have been many Kerry supporters at the game.
The Ireland of today is far different to the Ireland of the 1880s when the GAA was founded and the provincial model is still firmly in place. Like many others, I think it should be changed to reflect the needs of present day Ireland.
Still, I can't see any change for the foreseeable future, tradition being what it is in the GAA mindset.
The Tommy Murphy competition is proof enough of this and here every county took part in the premier competition, bar Kilkenny, before being knocked out in the early stages. At least each county involved were given status when the provincial championships began. They mightn't have a snowball's chance in Hell of getting near a provincial final but they weren't patronised either. I've made it my business for many years to sound out people from counties like Leitrim and Antrim, to name a couple and the reaction was predictable.
Unfortunately, I know John Hoban will be told to f**k off if he tries peddling a second rate competition to those who need it most.
Quote from: trailer on July 24, 2018, 10:26:09 PM
Can someone point to a time when these smaller counties competed at the top level in Hurling. I never remember any Ulster county competing. The gap has always been there.
Same applies in Football. When did Wexford, Carlow, Wicklow, Antrim, Sligo etc every really compete?
It will all end in tears.
Wexford got to the ai semifinal in 08. Didn't shame themselves in it either against eventual ai champions Tyrone. Antrim pushed eventual ai winners Kerry all the way in '09. They were level with 8 mins to go. Made an Ulster final that year too. Wicklow had a hugely entertaining run under Micko around that time too. Fondly remembered by the gaa people there, fortress Aughrim was the headline at the time after the had some giant killings against favoured northern opposition. Carlow defeated div 1 outfit Kildare this year who in turn defeated the decades perennial contenders Mayo a round or two later. There's nothing to say their upturn could not continue. Sligo won the 2007 Connacht title and having beat both of connachts Big two on the way to the 2010 final they should have won it as well.
To say football was or is as bad as hurling is a fallacy used to drive us towards a tiered championship. Comparing Sligo, Antrim, Wexford, Wicklow, Carlow footballers to the likes of Tyrone, Fermanagh, Donegal or Leitirims hurlers is to compare apples and oranges.
To say these teams have never competed and will never compete again is a lie told with the intention that if it's repeated often enough people will start to believe its the truth.
Quote from: trileacman on July 24, 2018, 11:21:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 24, 2018, 10:26:09 PM
Can someone point to a time when these smaller counties competed at the top level in Hurling. I never remember any Ulster county competing. The gap has always been there.
Same applies in Football. When did Wexford, Carlow, Wicklow, Antrim, Sligo etc every really compete?
It will all end in tears.
Wexford got to the ai semifinal in 08. Didn't shame themselves in it either against eventual ai champions Tyrone. Antrim pushed eventual ai winners Kerry all the way in '09. They were level with 8 mins to go. Made an Ulster final that year too. Wicklow had a hugely entertaining run under Micko around that time too. Fondly remembered by the gaa people there, fortress Aughrim was the headline at the time after the had some giant killings against favoured northern opposition. Carlow defeated div 1 outfit Kildare this year who in turn defeated the decades perennial contenders Mayo a round or two later. There's nothing to say their upturn could not continue. Sligo won the 2007 Connacht title and having beat both of connachts Big two on the way to the 2010 final they should have won it as well.
To say football was or is as bad as hurling is a fallacy used to drive us towards a tiered championship. Comparing Sligo, Antrim, Wexford, Wicklow, Carlow footballers to the likes of Tyrone, Fermanagh, Donegal or Leitirims hurlers is to compare apples and oranges.
To say these teams have never competed and will never compete again is a lie told with the intention that if it's repeated often enough people will start to believe its the truth.
The reason Sligo didn't win in 2010 is because they weren't good enough, and nothing more.
Quote from: Syferus on July 24, 2018, 11:26:00 PM
Quote from: trileacman on July 24, 2018, 11:21:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 24, 2018, 10:26:09 PM
Can someone point to a time when these smaller counties competed at the top level in Hurling. I never remember any Ulster county competing. The gap has always been there.
Same applies in Football. When did Wexford, Carlow, Wicklow, Antrim, Sligo etc every really compete?
It will all end in tears.
Wexford got to the ai semifinal in 08. Didn't shame themselves in it either against eventual ai champions Tyrone. Antrim pushed eventual ai winners Kerry all the way in '09. They were level with 8 mins to go. Made an Ulster final that year too. Wicklow had a hugely entertaining run under Micko around that time too. Fondly remembered by the gaa people there, fortress Aughrim was the headline at the time after the had some giant killings against favoured northern opposition. Carlow defeated div 1 outfit Kildare this year who in turn defeated the decades perennial contenders Mayo a round or two later. There's nothing to say their upturn could not continue. Sligo won the 2007 Connacht title and having beat both of connachts Big two on the way to the 2010 final they should have won it as well.
To say football was or is as bad as hurling is a fallacy used to drive us towards a tiered championship. Comparing Sligo, Antrim, Wexford, Wicklow, Carlow footballers to the likes of Tyrone, Fermanagh, Donegal or Leitirims hurlers is to compare apples and oranges.
To say these teams have never competed and will never compete again is a lie told with the intention that if it's repeated often enough people will start to believe its the truth.
The reason Sligo didn't win in 2010 is because they weren't good enough, and nothing more.
Still they'd the leg work done to be Connacht champions. Left it behind them by a point at the death. Really enjoyed that match.
Quote from: APM on July 24, 2018, 03:10:42 PM
The qualifiers and super 8s have already devalued the provincial championships in a serious way...Central Council has severely undermined the provincial championships with the backdoor and super 8s and the provincial councils haven't batted an eyelid despite this supposed political power.
Yes, you're right there, it definitely has. But its the tradition and the status that dies hardest, denuded though they are they still enjoy massive prominence as the foundation stone and jumping off point for all that follows - that was principally what I was alluding to. There's a reason why you, I and the dogs on the street can all recognize that the provincial championships are devalued, and in my opinion, now an impediment, yet no single championship structure advocating for their removal ever, ever sees the light of day and is instead taken to a dark corner and quietly strangled by self-preservation. There would not in my lifetime, I reckon, be any appetite to put the 'greater good' of the GAA and the equality or health of its competitions before this status, power, tradition, fiefdom and tribalism, as we've seen with quite a few decisions and non-decisions over the decades.
Quote from: APM on July 24, 2018, 03:10:42 PM
Despite all the above and the serious inequities around the provincial championships, I wouldn't like to see any further demise, if only because it remains meaningful in Ulster. At the moment a provincial win would be a huge thing for Armagh (10 years since last success), Down (24 years), Derry (20 years), Cavan (21 years) and Fermanagh (never). Given where they are at at the moment, an Ulster Championship win for Cavan could be the catalyst the greater success. It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that one or two of these teams will emerge to win Ulster in the next five years.
I don't strongly disagree with any of this either but none of it addresses the point that the provincials, overall, in the wider view, are a hindrance to progress and true equality and until they are dispensed with/decoupled from the main business, no championship structure that can actually, genuinely level the playing field will ever become a reality.
The romance of lesser counties winning provincials isn't entirely lost on me either, I'm from a county where we've one a solitary title since 1969. However I don't think the wider health of the sport and organization can be hidebound or held to hostage by the humanitarian notion of waiting for our likes to have an occasional day in the sun. It might be a catalyst, it might not - what have we done in Cavan off the back of an absolutely massive breakthrough in 1997, when the provincials really were worth winning and it truly was a prize? In most counties that lack the wherewithal to win provincials regularly, winning one sporadically tends not to magically address the reasons why they failed so regularly for so long beforehand.
I'd argue that success in a remodeled, equitable championship and progression to August matches would be just as cherished by anyone from the counties you've mentioned anyway. Besides, you could run the provincials in place of the McKenna Cup and so on if it was really necessary to preserve them in some form so they don't disappear from history.
Quote from: cavanmaniac on July 25, 2018, 12:13:02 AM
I'd argue that success in a remodeled, equitable championship and progression to August matches would be just as cherished by anyone from the counties you've mentioned anyway.
Our progression to the All Ireland Quarter Final in August 2013 was cherished only for a few months. Nothing like the romance and magic that we experienced in 1997.
Quote from: cavanmaniac on July 25, 2018, 12:13:02 AM
Besides, you could run the provincials in place of the McKenna Cup and so on if it was really necessary to preserve them in some form so they don't disappear from history.
If you do that, they become the McKenna Cup.
The Provincial football Championships drew around around 330k this year. The 4 Rounds of Qualifiers about 110k.
So no matter what new System might come in future I think it's a fair bet the Provincials will remain and there will be some perks for winning them (home draws or extra home fixtures if a group system).
The new Championship structures this tear had 2 things in common -
1 they were both devised by HQ
2 Provincials left intact , in fact made more important in the Hurling.
So if you want a new system it needs to be proposed by HQ and passed by Provincial Secretaries following which officialdom will support each other and vote it through.
Quote from: five points on July 25, 2018, 10:32:28 AM
Our progression to the All Ireland Quarter Final in August 2013 was cherished only for a few months. Nothing like the romance and magic that we experienced in 1997.
Yes, because it was 26 years previous and an entirely different landscape where winning one was reaching a pinnacle, unlike now. In the absence of provincials, reaching All-Ireland semis would still generate the same hype and momentum whatever the nature of the route there. Having no cup or title to celebrate might dilute things, you're correct, but my original point is do we want either to prioritise the preservation of traditions and established structures, or do we want a structure that's as fair as possible? Occasional fresh winners of denuded provincial championships experiencing the odd outpouring of joy doesn't seem a good enough reason to disenfranchise the majority.
Quote from: five points on July 25, 2018, 10:32:28 AM
If you do that, they become the McKenna Cup.
That's the general thrust, yes.
Quote from: cavanmaniac on July 25, 2018, 12:47:56 PM
do we want either to prioritise the preservation of traditions and established structures, or do we want a structure that's as fair as possible?
In life as in the GAA, dumping traditions and established structures in search of a holy grail of fairness is usually a fool's errand.
The provincially-based championship has its drawbacks but so too would an open draw-based league system. To take a random example a championship group of Cavan, Wexford, Waterford and Cork wouldn't exactly set pulses racing.
Quote from: five points on July 25, 2018, 03:47:35 PM
Quote from: cavanmaniac on July 25, 2018, 12:47:56 PM
do we want either to prioritise the preservation of traditions and established structures, or do we want a structure that's as fair as possible?
In life as in the GAA, dumping traditions and established structures in search of a holy grail of fairness is usually a fool's errand.
The provincially-based championship has its drawbacks but so too would an open draw-based league system. To take a random example a championship group of Cavan, Wexford, Waterford and Cork wouldn't exactly set pulses racing.
No, it wouldn't.
But a potential first round knock out fixture of Kerry Tyrone, Mayo Dublin or Donegal Kerry would. And a fortunate draw seeing the likes of Louth or Sligo in an AI semi or final, would do more for football in those counties than years of funding or coaches.
That's why an open draw is the only way.
We'll never see it now though. It's all about milking the tits off that big fat cash cow.
Quote from: BennyCake on July 25, 2018, 04:25:29 PM
Quote from: five points on July 25, 2018, 03:47:35 PM
Quote from: cavanmaniac on July 25, 2018, 12:47:56 PM
do we want either to prioritise the preservation of traditions and established structures, or do we want a structure that's as fair as possible?
In life as in the GAA, dumping traditions and established structures in search of a holy grail of fairness is usually a fool's errand.
The provincially-based championship has its drawbacks but so too would an open draw-based league system. To take a random example a championship group of Cavan, Wexford, Waterford and Cork wouldn't exactly set pulses racing.
No, it wouldn't.
But a potential first round knock out fixture of Kerry Tyrone, Mayo Dublin or Donegal Kerry would. And a fortunate draw seeing the likes of Louth or Sligo in an AI semi, would do more for football in those counties than years of funding or coaches.
That's why an open draw is the only way.
We'll never see it now though. It's all about milking the tits off that big fat cash cow.
Jaysus, no way! How on earth could it be good for the game to have Kerry knocked out by Tyrone and Donegal knocked out by Dublin in the first round, with Mayo knocking out Dublin in the second round and Louth in an AI semi, cos they beat Waterford, London, New York and Limerick. Everyone thought it was wonderful when London made it to the Connaught Final in 2013. I thought it was a feckin joke to be fair.
I would prefer to have seedings to reduce the number of mismatches.
"Open draw" lottery and no Provincials won't be happening whatever else might occur.
Quote from: APM on July 25, 2018, 04:31:20 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on July 25, 2018, 04:25:29 PM
Quote from: five points on July 25, 2018, 03:47:35 PM
Quote from: cavanmaniac on July 25, 2018, 12:47:56 PM
do we want either to prioritise the preservation of traditions and established structures, or do we want a structure that's as fair as possible?
In life as in the GAA, dumping traditions and established structures in search of a holy grail of fairness is usually a fool's errand.
The provincially-based championship has its drawbacks but so too would an open draw-based league system. To take a random example a championship group of Cavan, Wexford, Waterford and Cork wouldn't exactly set pulses racing.
No, it wouldn't.
But a potential first round knock out fixture of Kerry Tyrone, Mayo Dublin or Donegal Kerry would. And a fortunate draw seeing the likes of Louth or Sligo in an AI semi, would do more for football in those counties than years of funding or coaches.
That's why an open draw is the only way.
We'll never see it now though. It's all about milking the tits off that big fat cash cow.
Jaysus, no way! How on earth could it be good for the game to have Kerry knocked out by Tyrone and Donegal knocked out by Dublin in the first round, with Mayo knocking out Dublin in the second round and Louth in an AI semi, cos they beat Waterford, London, New York and Limerick. Everyone thought it was wonderful when London made it to the Connaught Final in 2013. I thought it was a feckin joke to be fair.
I would prefer to have seedings to reduce the number of mismatches.
But sure Kerry and Dublin have waltzed through their provinces for years to get to AI semis. How would it be different if Louth did it via an open draw?
Every county has the right to compete for Sam. 20 odd haven't a hope with the current system. This gives them as much chance as the next county.
Players in 20-odd counties are walking away in their droves. This system would help that.
480 of them would train for 9 months for 1 game.
Quote from: Rossfan on July 25, 2018, 04:43:54 PM
480 of them would train for 9 months for 1 game.
Maybe, but not every year.
If Kerry met Dublin, they'd be training for one game too.
The current system for all its faults at least allows most counties the opportunity of at least one winnable provincial championship match in most years followed by at least one game in the qualifiers, the early rounds of which involve a decent probability of meeting beatable opposition.
Quote from: five points on July 25, 2018, 05:33:44 PM
The current system for all its faults at least allows most counties the opportunity of at least one winnable provincial championship match in most years followed by at least one game in the qualifiers, the early rounds of which involve a decent probability of meeting beatable opposition.
Whoopedy do!
The qualifiers are patronizing smaller counties. Wicklow, you were stuffed by 45 points by Dublin in Leinster, but look, you play Cavan in the first qualifier. And you only lost by 20 points. But at least you got two games, so atleast you weren't training all year for one match. No, you got two! Keep up the good work lads, and maybe next year you'll get 3 games! ::)
Quote from: APM on July 25, 2018, 04:31:20 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on July 25, 2018, 04:25:29 PM
Quote from: five points on July 25, 2018, 03:47:35 PM
Quote from: cavanmaniac on July 25, 2018, 12:47:56 PM
do we want either to prioritise the preservation of traditions and established structures, or do we want a structure that's as fair as possible?
In life as in the GAA, dumping traditions and established structures in search of a holy grail of fairness is usually a fool's errand.
The provincially-based championship has its drawbacks but so too would an open draw-based league system. To take a random example a championship group of Cavan, Wexford, Waterford and Cork wouldn't exactly set pulses racing.
No, it wouldn't.
But a potential first round knock out fixture of Kerry Tyrone, Mayo Dublin or Donegal Kerry would. And a fortunate draw seeing the likes of Louth or Sligo in an AI semi, would do more for football in those counties than years of funding or coaches.
That's why an open draw is the only way.
We'll never see it now though. It's all about milking the tits off that big fat cash cow.
Jaysus, no way! How on earth could it be good for the game to have Kerry knocked out by Tyrone and Donegal knocked out by Dublin in the first round, with Mayo knocking out Dublin in the second round and Louth in an AI semi, cos they beat Waterford, London, New York and Limerick. Everyone thought it was wonderful when London made it to the Connaught Final in 2013. I thought it was a feckin joke to be fair.
I would prefer to have seedings to reduce the number of mismatches.
I think it would be great if Kerry lost to Tyrone or anyone else in the first round for that matter.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on July 25, 2018, 08:05:41 PM
Quote from: APM on July 25, 2018, 04:31:20 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on July 25, 2018, 04:25:29 PM
Quote from: five points on July 25, 2018, 03:47:35 PM
Quote from: cavanmaniac on July 25, 2018, 12:47:56 PM
do we want either to prioritise the preservation of traditions and established structures, or do we want a structure that's as fair as possible?
In life as in the GAA, dumping traditions and established structures in search of a holy grail of fairness is usually a fool's errand.
The provincially-based championship has its drawbacks but so too would an open draw-based league system. To take a random example a championship group of Cavan, Wexford, Waterford and Cork wouldn't exactly set pulses racing.
No, it wouldn't.
But a potential first round knock out fixture of Kerry Tyrone, Mayo Dublin or Donegal Kerry would. And a fortunate draw seeing the likes of Louth or Sligo in an AI semi, would do more for football in those counties than years of funding or coaches.
That's why an open draw is the only way.
We'll never see it now though. It's all about milking the tits off that big fat cash cow.
Jaysus, no way! How on earth could it be good for the game to have Kerry knocked out by Tyrone and Donegal knocked out by Dublin in the first round, with Mayo knocking out Dublin in the second round and Louth in an AI semi, cos they beat Waterford, London, New York and Limerick. Everyone thought it was wonderful when London made it to the Connaught Final in 2013. I thought it was a feckin joke to be fair.
I would prefer to have seedings to reduce the number of mismatches.
I think it would be great if Kerry lost to Tyrone or anyone else in the first round for that matter.
I could get on board if it was Tyrone losing to Kerry ;D In all seriousness, and I'm arguing against my previous point, I suppose this was the way of it in 1991 and the Dubs v Meath. One big hitter out in the Leinster Preliminary Round. Same with Derry v Down in 1994. Two of the most memorable contests in the history of the GAA and the fact that both games were early on and everything was on the line for them was probably what made the championship so special. Maybe we're fed up with teams getting a second chance.
Exactly apm.
First round ties, probably two of the most famous. Both teams potential AI winners. Do or die. That's what the c'ship is missing.
Quote from: BennyCake on July 25, 2018, 09:56:49 PM
Exactly apm.
First round ties, probably two of the most famous. Both teams potential AI winners. Do or die. That's what the c'ship is missing.
In fact, that year in question of 1994, when Down bt Derry, the Dubs beat Leitrim by 12 in the semi. To be fair to Leitrim, it wasn't a case of beating London & Sligo, as they came past Galway, Roscommon and Mayo - so there was no question that their progress was hard won and well-deserved.
I can only assume that the whole of Leitrim and their diaspora came to Croke for that game - I remember watching it, but not much about it. If the same thing was to happen now and they reached the Super 8s, I think the supporters would fear for them. Back then, the whole question of "its all on the day" meant that there was more hope for a team like Leitrim going to Croke Park. They could give it a lash and enjoy it.
I doubt their supporters would relish the prospect of 3 games against Tyrone, Kerry and Dublin. The hammerings are more severe, the stronger teams are better at holding possession and game management, so it really does turn into men against boys and the prospect of humiliation in Croke Park, is not that appealing. To endure it once is bad enough, but to have to face up to the prospect of two more would be a bit horrific and undo all the good done by a good run in the championship up to that point. Better a clean cold execution, than being kept on life support and tortured for three weeks. This is not an edifying sight for neutrals never mind the counties that have to go through it.
This to me is one area where the Super 8s is wrong, but bringing in tiers to rectify it is wrong too, as tiers kills the prospect of the triumph of the underdog, which is one of the great scenarios in sport. The GAA needs the romance of the successful underdog, but it also needs to ensure that the dog isn't run down over in the first round of the super 8s, only to spend the next three weeks stumbling about the place with its guts hanging out until it is eventually put out of its misery.
Quote from: APM on July 26, 2018, 10:15:21 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on July 25, 2018, 09:56:49 PM
Exactly apm.
First round ties, probably two of the most famous. Both teams potential AI winners. Do or die. That's what the c'ship is missing.
In fact, that year in question of 1994, when Down bt Derry, the Dubs beat Leitrim by 12 in the semi. To be fair to Leitrim, it wasn't a case of beating London & Sligo, as they came past Galway, Roscommon and Mayo - so there was no question that their progress was hard won and well-deserved.
I can only assume that the whole of Leitrim and their diaspora came to Croke for that game - I remember watching it, but not much about it. If the same thing was to happen now and they reached the Super 8s, I think the supporters would fear for them. Back then, the whole question of "its all on the day" meant that there was more hope for a team like Leitrim going to Croke Park. They could give it a lash and enjoy it.
I doubt their supporters would relish the prospect of 3 games against Tyrone, Kerry and Dublin. The hammerings are more severe, the stronger teams are better at holding possession and game management, so it really does turn into men against boys and the prospect of humiliation in Croke Park, is not that appealing. To endure it once is bad enough, but to have to face up to the prospect of two more would be a bit horrific and undo all the good done by a good run in the championship up to that point. Better a clean cold execution, than being kept on life support and tortured for three weeks. This is not an edifying sight for neutrals never mind the counties that have to go through it.
This to me is one area where the Super 8s is wrong, but bringing in tiers to rectify it is wrong too, as tiers kills the prospect of the triumph of the underdog, which is one of the great scenarios in sport. The GAA needs the romance of the successful underdog, but it also needs to ensure that the dog isn't run down over in the first round of the super 8s, only to spend the next three weeks stumbling about the place with its guts hanging out until it is eventually put out of its misery.
Yeah I agree.
As hard as it was to get beat by Tyrone last year by 18 points, two more similar beatings by a Dublin and Kerry would have done Armagh absolutely no good whatsoever. And wiuld have completely undone the good work in the qualifiers.
Tyrone were better, fresher. We were on the go 4/5 weeks and had a couple injured. You can move on and get over one bad day. Where do you start if you get three trashings? It would be so demoralising for a squad.
We'll let you know later :-[
I'm genuinely embarrassed by the idea of a supporter being afraid of their team getting too far in the championship. Why bother at all?
Any progress in the Championship must be earned. Handy draws for shite teams who make it to the latter stages is pointless. They finish up taking a huge tanking somewhere along the line that arguably puts them back further.
Quote from: Syferus on July 26, 2018, 11:07:29 AM
I'm genuinely embarrassed by the idea of a supporter being afraid of their team getting too far in the championship. Why bother at all?
We're you not genuinely embarrassed by the Roscommon performance v Tyrone? Look, you play what's in front of you, but serious question, would Roscommon be better of this year taking that beating from Tyrone and going home for the winter, or having to play a dead rubber against Dublin next week. All I'm saying is that, as a supporter, I wouldn't have relished the prospect of further humiliation after the Tyrone hammering last year in Croke Park. Once you're minus 18pts on scoring difference after one game, with Dublin and Donegal still to play, the players also know the game is up. There's not much you can do to recover from that type of beating in one week. You're just playing for pride and the hope is really gone. That is a season ending style hammering, particularly when it happens in the latter end of the season.
**Edit**
The point is I wouldn't want tiers and want the opportunity for Armagh to progress, but one hammering of 18pts would have been enough to tell us were not good enough. Three one-sided games where we simply don't compete, seems unnecessarily cruel. It does more harm than good and with the stronger teams getting more competitive games against eachother, it brings them on. But again, from a Kildare point of view, it should act as a good launchpad for success next year, given that they have been competitive in each game, despite losing.
I was disappointed but I've never been embarasssed by losing any match. We're clearly in the top eight - had Armagh got to back to back AIQFs they'd have had a good case too. Just because we shipped a few beatings doesn't mean you were better off losing before you got there. It's such a defeatist attitude.
Quote from: Syferus on July 26, 2018, 11:59:16 AM
I was disappointed but I've never been embarasssed by losing any match. We're clearly in the top eight - had Armagh got to back to back AIQFs they'd have had a good case too. Just because we shipped a few beatings doesn't mean you were better off losing before you got there. It's such a defeatist attitude.
Look, maybe you'll restore some pride in the Dublin game. I hope you do, as I enjoyed watching ye in Portlaoise and enjoyed the craic in the stands. The support is first class.
But are you telling me that a points difference of -42 at the end of this campaign, with the final game played in front of 95% Dublin fans in Parnell Park will be better for the development of this Roscommon team, than exiting directly after the Tyrone game.
My point is not that you shouldn't aspire to be there, but that the structure of the Super 8s will actually be MORE detrimental to Roscommon's development this year than a quick QF exit.
While we'd beat at least 18 teams out there in Championship football we were badly exposed in the last 8 thanks to the soft draw route.
(Not to mention management doing nothing to improve the deficiencies so badly exposed in the 2017 NFL and by the dark forces of Mayowestros in August 2017).
Those unrectified deficiencies were more public you exposed in a tight time frame this year.
No matter what tiers might or might not be introduced our current team would be Tier 1/Senior or whatever you want to call it.
Maybe our current (suspended) manager may be able to see our weaknesses better due to 3 defeats ?
Quote from: Syferus on July 26, 2018, 11:07:29 AM
I'm genuinely embarrassed by the idea of a supporter being afraid of their team getting too far in the championship. Why bother at all?
See reply #85.
Quote from: APM on July 26, 2018, 10:15:21 AM
as tiers kills the prospect of the triumph of the underdog, which is one of the great scenarios in sport. The GAA needs the romance of the successful underdog, but it also needs to ensure that the dog isn't run down over in the first round of the super 8s, only to spend the next three weeks stumbling about the place with its guts hanging out until it is eventually put out of its misery.
Couldn't agree more. Some think all that matters is who becomes the number one team however the underdog story is one of the most important things in any competition. A round robin for the last eight was never suited for the underdog you find out enough about yourself after one Quarter final knock out game. In Roscommon's case how big of underdog are they? only last year they beat Galway well who in turn are now into All Ireland semi final and Roscommon will be in Division one again next year. Roscommon might go away from their 3 Super 8s games now and look to work hard on their deficiencies or is that possible under that fella McStay?