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To be fair,  it's also about ensuring there will be no dead rubbers in the group stages.

Are Meath out of the race for Sam ?

Yes, first time ever. It's a sad state of affairs for Meath football.

did you forget about every year pre 2001 that they lost a leinster championship match?

From memory I think it was changed  around 10 years ago?
Another that some commentators don't know is a throw up for encroaching when taking a sideline kick.
And of course McStay and playing the ball on the ground in last year's Tailteann Final

The lack of knowledge of the rules among the 'expert pundits' is a disgrace!  If they don't know the rules of the game they shouldn't be providing 'expert' analysis!

Although since its provincial council vote, I doubt Roscommon would be overly in favour in the long term as we benefit from Galway V Mayo Connacht semi finals.

Plus for next year if its the provincial finalists who are seeded that's Sligo* and potentially Galway to use the form guide but in prearranged games its Galway vs London, Mayo vs New York in the quarter finals.

Galway, Mayo and Roscommon cannot be on the same side of the draw next year because Galway and Mayo are in the pre-arranged games.  So no need to seed the draw at all next year.
It's only possible in years when 2 of the 3 are drawn together in the quarter final.  And even in years when that happens, the semi final draw can still keep them apart.

I say unless there a miracle Donegal and Monaghan be going down.

Monaghan have never needed miracles to beat Tyrone in the league. We can't possibly play as bad as that 2nd half performance  in Galway and notwithstanding it took Galway ages to get that game closing goal, even that had to handed on a plate to them.

Galway controlled that game handily and had it not been for a moment of madness (that the ref should've sorted far earlier) and 4/5 Beggan punts from soft frees, it probably would've been a double figure scoreline. Galway missed a gilt edged goal chance 15 mins before their actual one on 63 mins, and fisted another when a goal chance was glaring. Not sure Monaghan got within sight of a goal

Galway controlled all the second half yet it took the gifted goal near the end to put the required distance, from 2 points to 5. It was the worst half Monaghan have played this year, so I wouldnt start counting chickens just yet and considering Monaghan's shooting was much more wasteful in front of goal than Galway's. Nevertheless, we won't be relegating you this year.

Ah, that year you broke the covid rules and got rewarded with a home relegation playoff in a game of inches. A tough one to take at the time alright, but one of the best things to happen in hindsight. There's great momentum in winning, and it lasted for the vast majority of last year.

You should have nothing to be worried about as long as you're confident you'll get straight back up. I do hope Monaghan stay up though, that lengthy stretch in D1 is a great achievement

Monaghan were punished for breaking covid rules and served their time which afterwards ended up in a play off in Clones. When you are beaten fair and square on the field of play you should take it on the chin like us Monaghan folk are well used to
Just take on board  that this year you failed to beat both Roscommon and Donegal,  which we managed handily enough. The league is not a consistent affair but about who manages to stay afloat after 7 games.

8 points may not be enough for safety.

Donegal can only finish with a maximum of 7. Tyrone play monaghan and with both on 4 - I think - both cant finish on 8. 8 will keep you in div1

It's mathematically IMPOSSIBLE to get relegated on 8 points in an 8 team (7 match) league unless one team gets zero. Therefore 8 points is guaranteed to keep you up this year.

Galway defender threw the ball.
Technical foul in small square is a penalty.

I didn't see umpires signal that the ball was across the line, so i assume ref didn't know if it was across the line before he signalled for the penalty.

RIP Farrandeelin. He was always a very resonable contributor.

Forgive me if its already been discussed (I haven't read all of the thread), but is there any reason why the GAA can't do substitutions the way they do them in soccer?

At the halfway point on the sideline, players come off before substitute goes on. Ref or linesman oversees it?

You see how long it takes a soccer player to walk off when he wants to waste time? Then treble that as a player at the far corner of a GAA pitch (a smart manager would tell the player coming off to head to the far corner before sub is signalled) would have nearly 3 times as far to go, at walking or limping pace this would take too much time

Gie them 20s to get off then yellow card them if they arent off in that time

Getting a yellow card as you are walking off the pitch isn't much punishment (unless it's a second yellow) in a sport where yellow cards don't accumulate

At least it filled the last few days with talking shite!! 

Very true

I better go do some work! 

Anyways, lets see how KC approach this when given their options by Croke, we need to take away the ambiguity of the rules, they are so open to 'abuse' they ain't clear cut and the process of appeals seems flawed also.

Westbound, KC didn't send on 16 or 17 players they started each half with 15 and made subs during that time, the process of games being restarted after a sub was made wasn't adhered to, that wasn't KC's fault, we are talking about 30 seconds or so, there was a mistake, no doubt unwittingly by some official and this is what we have.

I agree it was a mistake.
But rules can be broken by accident.

[after]

The referee must restart the play after the sub leaves and there are 15 players (providing no black cards or red cards) KC gave the slip notification given .. Are you saying they should literally pull him off the park?

all the players
coming off/going on to the field of play in acts
of substitution/temporary substitution shall go
through this point, when given permission by
the Referee. Except when there is an injury, the player can leave nearest available place

A Substitution may only be made during a break
in play, after the player has given a substitution
note to the Referee, or in the case of a InterCounty Senior game, to the Sideline Official.
This shall also apply to a Temporary Substitution
allowed under Rule 1.5 (b), Rules of Control -
Injuries: Blood or Suspected Head Injury.
A break in play shall be when the play is stopped
after a score or wide or for a free, sideline puck/
kick or when the Referee has stopped play for
medical attention to an injured player.


There isn't a rule that says you have to pull the player off the pitch, if they followed the above rules and it wasn't adhered to by the ref then that's on him unfortunately..

As I've indicated before the referee/officials definitely need to shoulder some of the blame, but not all of it. None of what you've listed above relieves of the KC's management responsibility to ensure that they have 15 players on the field. The referee must give permission for the sub, and yes he should not restart play until the replaced player is off. The sideline officials have the responsibility to ensure that the subs take place from the technical zone. It's clear the referee messed up and I'm not arguing that. What I am objecting to is you putting the entire blame on the ref. That is clearly wrong. To do that is absolving the KC management of all responsibility.

KC can't restart the game, we are talking 30 to 45 seconds here, not minutes whether this extra information (sub's player hasn't left pitch yet) was given to the ref we don't know. But the reality is unfortunately this player, didn't leave or knew he had to leave and wasn't informed by the player coming on, as he positioned himself elsewhere.

Now you can huff and puff about KC breaking the rules, but they'll have really only broke the rules if they sent on a player with no notification to the officials!

Sorry milltown, I don't agree with your last sentence at all.

KC had 16 players on the pitch - that IS a breach of the rules.

Now, I don't disagree with a lot of what  you say and that the officials were at fault.  BUT playing with 16 players IS a break of the rules.

Choosing a punishment that fits the crime is a different matter
For example, Paul mannion remaining on the pitch is also a breach of the rule. But I think everyone would think everyone would agree that the MAXIMUM punishment for that type of 'indiscretion' should be a fine (and most likely no punishment at all).  But defending a passage of play with 16men (virtually inside your own 21 yard line) while the opposition NEED a goal is surely a greater indiscretion than the Paul Mannion offcence and therefore deserving of a bigger punishment?

Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.

This isn't only a question of the referee. In this case, the other team broke the rules by not bringing their player off.

Tell me or show me the rule as I haven't seen it, that the team that gives the slip to the 4th official, he then tells the ref  that there are 2 subs coming on, that he then has to wait till the subs go off before restarting that KC management broke the rules?

Rule 2.1 below!

RULE 2 - THE PLAYERS
2.1 A team shall consist of fifteen players.

I don't believe KC management deliberately broke the rules, but I REALLY can't see how anyone can argue that they didn't break the rules (albeit for only about 30 seconds).

To me it's without question that the rules were broken.  The severity of the punishment can be debated IMO. I think it warrants a replay - 'depending on the circumstances' (i.e. it was the last 30 seconds where all 16 players were behind the ball).

They followed procedure, who is there to enforce that? All I'm doing here is what will Croke park be doing to get out of this jam? The subs must leave the field of play before restarting the game.. Look for that rule

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here,

I think you are in agreement that the rules were broken?

I said yesterday that it was ultimately the fault of the officials, but KC may have followed procedure and TRIED to play with only 15 on the field. But they HAD 16 (17!!!) on the field for the last play of them game. Therefore they definintely gained an advantage from breaking the rules - Even if they tried to do everything right.

So I really can't see how anyone can say that the rules weren't broken.

So, if we agree that the rules are broken then it is up to the committee in charge to determine the appropriate punishment. 

If we think through the 3 possible options for punishment:
1) Award the game to glen? Glen were two points down with 30 seconds left, unlikely to get a goal to win, so therefore I believe this punishment wouldn't be a fair punishment for the 'crime'
2) a fine to KC - if we agree that it was an accidental break of the rules by KC and it was more a mistake by the referee, then it doesn't really make sense to issue a fine. Also, this punishment doesn't give any benefit to the team (Glen) that was affected by the rule break. Therefore I don't think this one is appropriate.
3) Replay - The only option left! Plus it gives KC the opportunity to win it again (I actually think they would win a replay with a bit to spare) and it recompenses Glen (i.e. they get the opportunity to win the game).

That's my thought process anyway.

Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.

This isn't only a question of the referee. In this case, the other team broke the rules by not bringing their player off.

Tell me or show me the rule as I haven't seen it, that the team that gives the slip to the 4th official, he then tells the ref  that there are 2 subs coming on, that he then has to wait till the subs go off before restarting that KC management broke the rules?

Rule 2.1 below!

RULE 2 - THE PLAYERS
2.1 A team shall consist of fifteen players.

I don't believe KC management deliberately broke the rules, but I REALLY can't see how anyone can argue that they didn't break the rules (albeit for only about 30 seconds).

To me it's without question that the rules were broken.  The severity of the punishment can be debated IMO. I think it warrants a replay - 'depending on the circumstances' (i.e. it was the last 30 seconds where all 16 players were behind the ball).

A player would always have been in that position had no.14 not been, it's the basics of managing your line.

Of course that means one less person of the 15 not on the 14 yard line not a clear route on goal, that's clutching especially considering the actual clear routes they had to goal but missed, but had he got a shot off on target then yes there is proper interference.

My view is Glen should put the ball back into Croke Parks court and see what happens

It's not clutching. The fact is you can't know, and one less player out the field would have made some difference. How much? Who knows. But that's the point. It absolutely had some effect on the field, and that's why a replay is needed.

There are 3 outcome, KC lose the final Glen win, Replay ordered or a fine, the replay isn't just the only option

There are 4 options per rule 6.44
the 3 you mention plus 'forfeiture of the game without award of the game to the oppossing team'.  This one is only possible if GAA HQ step in them selves. If Glen object, then this isn't a possibility.

In my opinion, taking the game from KC and/or giving it to glen makes no sense. Also, if we believe (which I do) that this was an accidental breach of the rules by KC, then fining them (for what is ultimately an error by the officials) makes no sense.
It's a replay or nothing in my eyes.

I have to say, my initial reaction after the game was let it go, and I think if I was a player I would have to look at it and say that we had 60+mins to win the game and we weren't good enough to win without a possible last minute hail mary goal. So don't object. I'm sure there are several others in my club that would disagree.
BUT, why do we have a rule book at all if GAA HQ aren't going to implement it? HQ should be implementing this rule (and every rule).

Tough one!

Can anyone give me an example of this having happened before?  In that they (Croke Park) have agreed to a replay after steps climbed, speeches made, trophies presented, songs sung etc?

I think it unlikely.  That said, Glen do have the right to ask/appeal!

Big fat fine me thinks!

Connacht minor final Ros V Galway, the year cake took the penalty when he shouldn't have. Pretty sure it was 1989! Not an all ireland, but it was a final. Roscommon captain got the cup and later in the day the game was 'awarded' to galway. Subsequently, a replay was agreed and Ros won the replay (AET in Tuam if my memory serves me correctly!)

There are other replays - Offaly V clare hurling & Armagh V laois football championship but I don't recall any other final being played