Ballyjamesduff

[seafoid]

A lot of the murder suicide cases involve relationship breakdown  and mental illness involving catastrophisation. It isn't rational.

Why did Hawe not just kill himself ?

Nothing will be done about it nationally . So there will be more cases.

But what do you do?

Is there a linear or predictable path from depression or specific signs to senseless murder?

When does society and the government step in?

Its the same in the US with mentally ill people buying guns legally.

The US is worse.
Mental health support is too mysterious. Even if Hawe had problems at work and in his marriage 4 people didn't need to die. Maybe he could have been hospitalised for a month or two.
If people are experiencing psychotic symptoms they should be under medical supervision
Most of the 450 or so people who take their own lives every year do not know that help is available.

[Franko]

If the suicide had failed he would be looking at a long jail sentence.  Sanjay? someone was married to a woma  from Mayo. He killed his 2 sons and attempted suicide after he racked up.gambling losses. That triggered a psychotic episode. No excuse under the law.

Would he though?? No expert by any means, but if he claimed insanity would he not have been given a vastly reduced sentence?  Served in a mental inst?

Sanjeev Chada got life. He killed his 2 sons

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/heartbroken-mum-kathleen-chada-whose-11124609

I suspect you know this but Chada wasn't found to be 'insane' so your reference (like so many of your references) is totally irrelevant.

[seafoid]

If the suicide had failed he would be looking at a long jail sentence.  Sanjay? someone was married to a woma  from Mayo. He killed his 2 sons and attempted suicide after he racked up.gambling losses. That triggered a psychotic episode. No excuse under the law.

Would he though?? No expert by any means, but if he claimed insanity would he not have been given a vastly reduced sentence?  Served in a mental inst?

Sanjeev Chada got life. He killed his 2 sons

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/heartbroken-mum-kathleen-chada-whose-11124609

I suspect you know this but Chada wasn't found to be 'insane' so your reference (like so many of your references) is totally irrelevant.

WTF

You thought insanity.might be a defence..Apparently it isn't. 

[Franko]

If the suicide had failed he would be looking at a long jail sentence.  Sanjay? someone was married to a woma  from Mayo. He killed his 2 sons and attempted suicide after he racked up.gambling losses. That triggered a psychotic episode. No excuse under the law.

Would he though?? No expert by any means, but if he claimed insanity would he not have been given a vastly reduced sentence?  Served in a mental inst?

Sanjeev Chada got life. He killed his 2 sons

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/heartbroken-mum-kathleen-chada-whose-11124609

I suspect you know this but Chada wasn't found to be 'insane' so your reference (like so many of your references) is totally irrelevant.

WTF

You thought insanity.might be a defence..Apparently it isn't.

But it is.  In Irish law.

Mental experts found that the Chada guy wasn't legally 'insane'.  The testimony heard from the Hawe inquest would suggest that it's very likely he would have been.

[seafoid]

If the suicide had failed he would be looking at a long jail sentence.  Sanjay? someone was married to a woma  from Mayo. He killed his 2 sons and attempted suicide after he racked up.gambling losses. That triggered a psychotic episode. No excuse under the law.

Would he though?? No expert by any means, but if he claimed insanity would he not have been given a vastly reduced sentence?  Served in a mental inst?

Sanjeev Chada got life. He killed his 2 sons

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/heartbroken-mum-kathleen-chada-whose-11124609

I suspect you know this but Chada wasn't found to be 'insane' so your reference (like so many of your references) is totally irrelevant.

WTF

You thought insanity.might be a defence..Apparently it isn't.

But it is.  In Irish law.

Mental experts found that the Chada guy wasn't legally 'insane'.  The testimony heard from the Hawe inquest would suggest that it's very likely he would have been.

maybe paranoid schizophrenia is acceptablé but depressivé psychosis is not  . Something to do with planning?  I don't know. A fella in Sligo had PS  and killed his gf and is in the Central Mental Hospital.

[Franko]

If the suicide had failed he would be looking at a long jail sentence.  Sanjay? someone was married to a woma  from Mayo. He killed his 2 sons and attempted suicide after he racked up.gambling losses. That triggered a psychotic episode. No excuse under the law.

Would he though?? No expert by any means, but if he claimed insanity would he not have been given a vastly reduced sentence?  Served in a mental inst?

Sanjeev Chada got life. He killed his 2 sons

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/heartbroken-mum-kathleen-chada-whose-11124609

I suspect you know this but Chada wasn't found to be 'insane' so your reference (like so many of your references) is totally irrelevant.

WTF

You thought insanity.might be a defence..Apparently it isn't.

But it is.  In Irish law.

Mental experts found that the Chada guy wasn't legally 'insane'.  The testimony heard from the Hawe inquest would suggest that it's very likely he would have been.

maybe paranoid schizophrenia is acceptablé but depressivé psychosis is not  . Something to do with planning?  I don't know. A fella in Sligo had PS  and killed his gf and is in the Central Mental Hospital.

Em, yeah, you just made that up. 

People who are charged with a criminal offence and who are suffering from a mental disorder are dealt with under the Criminal Law (Insanity) Act 2006 as amended by the Criminal Law (Insanity) Act 2010.

The question of the mental state of someone charged with a crime may arise at 2 different stages - at the start of the trial and at the decision on guilt. If a person is suffering from a mental disorder, they may be considered unfit to be tried at the start of the trial. In that case, no trial goes ahead. If a trial is held and the person is considered to have actually committed the offence but was insane at the time, it is possible for a verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity to be reached. In murder cases, the concept of diminished responsibility may be used to substitute a verdict of manslaughter.

A mental disorder is defined in the 2006 Act as including mental illness, mental disability, dementia or any disease of the mind but does not include intoxication (drunkenness).

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_trial/criminal_insanity_and_mental_health.html

[omaghjoe]

Firstly I should point out that he wasn't diagnosed retrospectively with having diminished responsibility or not understanding the difference between right or wrong or the consequences.
He was diagnosed retrospectively without ever being examined by that physician of having a depression induced psychosis.

My own feeling is that whatever his perceived mental state, and these latest letters appear to back it up, is that he knew exactly what he was doing, the consequences and the horror of his actions.

[nrico2006]

Firstly I should point out that he wasn't diagnosed retrospectively with having diminished responsibility or not understanding the difference between right or wrong or the consequences.
He was diagnosed retrospectively without ever being examined by that physician of having a depression induced psychosis.

My own feeling is that whatever his perceived mental state, and these latest letters appear to back it up, is that he knew exactly what he was doing, the consequences and the horror of his actions.

Are those who commit suicide selfish and cruel then? They often leave letters that show they know what they are at and the consequences of their actions.

[omaghjoe]

Firstly I should point out that he wasn't diagnosed retrospectively with having diminished responsibility or not understanding the difference between right or wrong or the consequences.
He was diagnosed retrospectively without ever being examined by that physician of having a depression induced psychosis.

My own feeling is that whatever his perceived mental state, and these latest letters appear to back it up, is that he knew exactly what he was doing, the consequences and the horror of his actions.

Are those who commit suicide selfish and cruel then? They often leave letters that show they know what they are at and the consequences of their actions.

Selfishness and Cruelness are subjective graduated concepts so differ on how each individual observer see and feels about them.

This discussion was regarding his mental state and specifically wether he understood exactly what he was doing, the consequences of his actions and wether he understood them to be wrong. From his letters it would appear that he did.

[nrico2006]

Firstly I should point out that he wasn't diagnosed retrospectively with having diminished responsibility or not understanding the difference between right or wrong or the consequences.
He was diagnosed retrospectively without ever being examined by that physician of having a depression induced psychosis.

My own feeling is that whatever his perceived mental state, and these latest letters appear to back it up, is that he knew exactly what he was doing, the consequences and the horror of his actions.

Are those who commit suicide selfish and cruel then? They often leave letters that show they know what they are at and the consequences of their actions.

Selfishness and Cruelness are subjective graduated concepts so differ on how each individual observer see and feels about them.

This discussion was regarding his mental state and specifically wether he understood exactly what he was doing, the consequences of his actions and wether he understood them to be wrong. From his letters it would appear that he did.

My point was simply that when someone takes their own life there is a lot of sympathy for them as others see it as something an illness (depression etc.) caused them to do as opposed to something they would have done if 100% healthy mentally.  If Hawe was impaired mentally then surely it could be argues that it was the result of his illness and not entirely his fault.

[Dougal Maguire]

Some unbelievable,half cocked, uninformed nonsense on this thread. I would ask the Mods to close it down.

[HiMucker]

Some unbelievable,half cocked, uninformed nonsense on this thread. I would ask the Mods to close it down.

I would agree with you, that some of the comments here are "half cocked uniformed nonsense", however I think mental health issues are best talked about out in the open.  The more these things are discussed the more peoples opinions wont be "half cocked uniformed nonsense".  Enough of sweeping things under the carpet, so people don't feel uncomfortable.  It has not served society well at all.

[Esmarelda]

Some unbelievable,half cocked, uninformed nonsense on this thread. I would ask the Mods to close it down.

I would agree with you, that some of the comments here are "half cocked uniformed nonsense", however I think mental health issues are best talked about out in the open.  The more these things are discussed the more peoples opinions wont be "half cocked uniformed nonsense".  Enough of sweeping things under the carpet, so people don't feel uncomfortable.  It has not served society well at all.

It was inevitable that comments such as Dougal's would come up.

You're completely right Mucker. People are discussing a topic, they're not pretending to be experts on it. I for one have seen a different view on it from reading this thread.

[guy crouchback]

Firstly I should point out that he wasn't diagnosed retrospectively with having diminished responsibility or not understanding the difference between right or wrong or the consequences.
He was diagnosed retrospectively without ever being examined by that physician of having a depression induced psychosis.

My own feeling is that whatever his perceived mental state, and these latest letters appear to back it up, is that he knew exactly what he was doing, the consequences and the horror of his actions.

Are those who commit suicide selfish and cruel then? They often leave letters that show they know what they are at and the consequences of their actions.

Selfishness and Cruelness are subjective graduated concepts so differ on how each individual observer see and feels about them.

This discussion was regarding his mental state and specifically wether he understood exactly what he was doing, the consequences of his actions and wether he understood them to be wrong. From his letters it would appear that he did.

My point was simply that when someone takes their own life there is a lot of sympathy for them as others see it as something an illness (depression etc.) caused them to do as opposed to something they would have done if 100% healthy mentally.  If Hawe was impaired mentally then surely it could be argues that it was the result of his illness and not entirely his fault.

as  understand it your mental health would have to be so impaired that your were unable to tell right from wrong, that you had no idea that what you were doing was wrong or in any way illegal.

[seafoid]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/suicide-note-shows-catalogue-of-issues-troubled-hawe-1.3334479

In his suicide notes, Hawe expressed concerns about his performance as a teacher and how students at his school perceived him and how he worked. He made an unexplained reference to how they might have thought he was not correcting the school work of students properly and that they were "probably" saying that he was on the phone.

He believed that he had fallen short in his work as a teacher at the school, that he was lazy and that people over the summer had been "looking at me oddly and not saluting me," he wrote in his suicide notes.

He was due to return to work at the school after the summer break on the morning the bodies were found.

Hawe, who wrote the letter after murdering his family, said that he felt he had no choice but to kill his family because he believed that they could not live with the burden of his suicide so it was "easier" to murder them.