Super 8s

Started by theticklemister, February 19, 2017, 10:55:16 PM

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rodney trotter

Teams could lose the first 2 games and have nothing to play for in the 3rd game. Imagine that non event in Croke Park,

Zulu

But again all your saying is it isn't perfect and the reality is that if we want to cater for two separate codes, have players play at two different levels (club and county) and give everyone enough games and structure to their season then we need to make some very unpopular decisions and change the GAA dramatically.

Since that's not going to happen then this is a reasonable development.



Ball Hopper

According to the GAA document, The Order of Games in each Group has been pre-determined as follows, presuming 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw:

Round 1
Team 1 v Team 2 in Croke Park
Team 3 v Team 4 in Croke Park

Round 2
Team 1 v Team 3 or 4  Home advantage for provincial champions.
Team 2 V Team 3 or 4  Home advantage for provincial champions.

Round 3
Team 1 v Team 3 or 4  Home advantage for Team 3 or 4.
Team 2 v Team 3 or 4  Home advantage for Team 3 or 4.

The winner of the Team 1 v Team 2 will have a big advantage and winning the Round 2 game at home will see them through.  Does that leave the final game away from home a dead rubber?  Or maybe play to avoid a "bigger" team in the other group, depending on results from that group?

Loser of Team 1 v Team 2 will need two wins to advance so no dead rubber in Round 3.  Of course, their opponent in Round 3 may have lost both games to that point which would leave them nothing to play for in that final game.

Would 3 points for a win make a difference?  Is a three-way tie possible...outside of every game finishing level...or is a two-way tie for second place most likely?



From the Bunker

Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 03:22:45 PM
Mr. Deeds, that's what you get when you stick to provincial championships, unless the Munster teams improve.  Not much you can do without scrapping the provincials.

The Trap, how do you mean it's bad for club with county players?

Ha ha Derry, there may be dead rubber games granted. But could you not try to make your argument balanced by saying "might be" instead of implying they're a certainty?
Munster champions get a second chance but will still encounter more difficult games en route to the final. Can you also accept this?
Clubs of the six teams not making the semi-finals will also get their players back earlier.

From the Bunker is in WUM territory so I won't encourage him/her.

I'm not on a wind up! I'm disgusted with the Super 8! It creates more problems than it solves. I hate the thought that the stronger teams now get a third chance. The advantages that were available to the stronger teams have become bigger advantages. Dublin come out of this smelling of roses! Their big squad, home games and professional set-up will suit the rapid fire nature of the games.  Kerry/Tyrone/Mayo/Donegal will hold their own. Counties like Monaghan who are punching above their weight would be stretched!

But hey, Zulu who is bored out his mind with the Leinster Championship needs a bit stimulation on his doorstep! So lets create a longer version of what we already have over a shorter space of time.

Farrandeelin

I'm not arguing for the Trap, but I do think that clubs with county players will be punished when the county leagues are going on.
Inaugural Football Championship Prediction Winner.

Zulu

Quote from: From the Bunker on February 28, 2017, 07:55:43 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 03:22:45 PM
Mr. Deeds, that's what you get when you stick to provincial championships, unless the Munster teams improve.  Not much you can do without scrapping the provincials.

The Trap, how do you mean it's bad for club with county players?

Ha ha Derry, there may be dead rubber games granted. But could you not try to make your argument balanced by saying "might be" instead of implying they're a certainty?
Munster champions get a second chance but will still encounter more difficult games en route to the final. Can you also accept this?
Clubs of the six teams not making the semi-finals will also get their players back earlier.

From the Bunker is in WUM territory so I won't encourage him/her.

I'm not on a wind up! I'm disgusted with the Super 8! It creates more problems than it solves. I hate the thought that the stronger teams now get a third chance. The advantages that were available to the stronger teams have become bigger advantages. Dublin come out of this smelling of roses! Their big squad, home games and professional set-up will suit the rapid fire nature of the games.  Kerry/Tyrone/Mayo/Donegal will hold their own. Counties like Monaghan who are punching above their weight would be stretched!

But hey, Zulu who is bored out his mind with the Leinster Championship needs a bit stimulation on his doorstep! So lets create a longer version of what we already have over a shorter space of time.

Just for clarity, I'm not a Dub or living in Dublin but I am, like most everybody else, board out of my mind with the championship. The league is brilliant thankfully and gives everybody something meaningful.

FoB unless you can suggest something better and that will pass congress then I don't understand where you're coming from at all.

macdanger2

Quote from: Ball Hopper on February 28, 2017, 07:49:12 PM
According to the GAA document, The Order of Games in each Group has been pre-determined as follows, presuming 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw:

Round 1
Team 1 v Team 2 in Croke Park
Team 3 v Team 4 in Croke Park

Round 2
Team 1 v Team 3 or 4  Home advantage for provincial champions.
Team 2 V Team 3 or 4  Home advantage for provincial champions.

Round 3
Team 1 v Team 3 or 4  Home advantage for Team 3 or 4.
Team 2 v Team 3 or 4  Home advantage for Team 3 or 4.

The winner of the Team 1 v Team 2 will have a big advantage and winning the Round 2 game at home will see them through.  Does that leave the final game away from home a dead rubber?  Or maybe play to avoid a "bigger" team in the other group, depending on results from that group?

Loser of Team 1 v Team 2 will need two wins to advance so no dead rubber in Round 3.  Of course, their opponent in Round 3 may have lost both games to that point which would leave them nothing to play for in that final game.

Would 3 points for a win make a difference?  Is a three-way tie possible...outside of every game finishing level...or is a two-way tie for second place most likely?

Regardless of the order of games, if one or two teams enter the final round having lost both previous games, there'll be one or two dead rubbers. Ideally, all four teams would have won one game entering the last round but that's probably unlikely unless it's a very competitive group.

Avondhu star

Quote from: Zulu on February 28, 2017, 09:03:43 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 28, 2017, 07:55:43 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 03:22:45 PM
Mr. Deeds, that's what you get when you stick to provincial championships, unless the Munster teams improve.  Not much you can do without scrapping the provincials.

The Trap, how do you mean it's bad for club with county players?

Ha ha Derry, there may be dead rubber games granted. But could you not try to make your argument balanced by saying "might be" instead of implying they're a certainty?
Munster champions get a second chance but will still encounter more difficult games en route to the final. Can you also accept this?
Clubs of the six teams not making the semi-finals will also get their players back earlier.

From the Bunker is in WUM territory so I won't encourage him/her.

I'm not on a wind up! I'm disgusted with the Super 8! It creates more problems than it solves. I hate the thought that the stronger teams now get a third chance. The advantages that were available to the stronger teams have become bigger advantages. Dublin come out of this smelling of roses! Their big squad, home games and professional set-up will suit the rapid fire nature of the games.  Kerry/Tyrone/Mayo/Donegal will hold their own. Counties like Monaghan who are punching above their weight would be stretched!

But hey, Zulu who is bored out his mind with the Leinster Championship needs a bit stimulation on his doorstep! So lets create a longer version of what we already have over a shorter space of time.

Just for clarity, I'm not a Dub or living in Dublin but I am, like most everybody else, board out of my mind with the championship. The league is brilliant thankfully and gives everybody something meaningful.

FoB unless you can suggest something better and that will pass congress then I don't understand where you're coming from at all.
I agree with you. I find the league a lot more enjoyable. Players are fitter now than years ago and there are a lot more  competitive games. What good is Dublin v Wicklow or Kerry v Waterford in the championship? We have to wait all summer for a decent game usually a semi final. Even the Qfs are thrown up mismatches
Lee Harvey Oswald , your country needs you

AZOffaly

The league certainly undergone a perception shift. The Championship is still the holy grail, and while you have lads like Liam Kearns downplaying it and saying the Chammpionship is the main focus, I think most managers and players understand that to play the long game, consistently competitive in championship, you have to be operating at a higher level in the league.

If we made your league finishing position a factor in what stage of the championship you entered, you might have another boost.

In fairness TG4 and Eir have also added greatly to the appeal of the league.

Farrandeelin

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 01, 2017, 08:48:17 AM
The league certainly undergone a perception shift. The Championship is still the holy grail, and while you have lads like Liam Kearns downplaying it and saying the Chammpionship is the main focus, I think most managers and players understand that to play the long game, consistently competitive in championship, you have to be operating at a higher level in the league.

If we made your league finishing position a factor in what stage of the championship you entered, you might have another boost.

In fairness TG4 and Eir have also added greatly to the appeal of the league.
I was thinking something the same the other night in bed AZ. Kind of like the FA cup in England, Div 3 and 4 enter the 1st round, 8 winners and Div 2 in second round 8 winners and Div 1 in 3rd round. It would be open draw first team home advantage etc. Gives all counties incentive to move up the leagues. I know the provincials would be rendered useless, but something would have to give.
Inaugural Football Championship Prediction Winner.

macdanger2

The league is a great competition. Apart from the occasional game in D4, almost all games are between fairly evenly matched teams

munchkin

Quote from: Farrandeelin on March 01, 2017, 09:16:52 AM
I was thinking something the same the other night in bed AZ. Kind of like the FA cup in England, Div 3 and 4 enter the 1st round, 8 winners and Div 2 in second round 8 winners and Div 1 in 3rd round. It would be open draw first team home advantage etc. Gives all counties incentive to move up the leagues. I know the provincials would be rendered useless, but something would have to give.
i was thinking along the same lines, except that winning the province gives you a wild card to a later stage  if you havent already automatically qualified as a div1 team.
Similar to the way that winning the champions league might kick out a 4th place team in England or Germany.

it will NEVER pass congress without some sort of direct qualification or benefit from winning the province which is why something like that would be needed.
(now.... that the format of the championship requires congress approval to allow it to be written into the rule book  is another issue !)

Esmarelda

Genuine question for everyone, but especially for those against the Super 8; what do the the weaker counties want? I'm talking primarily about the counties in Division 4. Does anyone know anyone involved, be it players, management etc?

We've heard that they want the provincials kept and that they don't want a tiered championship. Then we hear the Wicklow manager advocating a strike in light of what was passed at congress.

I'm just wondering what kind up set-up they have in mind that would right the wrong of what was passed.

AZOffaly

I think they want to be in the All Ireland championship proper, and they want the Provincials, but they want more games. That's going to be very tricky to do. 

Esmarelda

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 01, 2017, 10:24:39 AM
I think they want to be in the All Ireland championship proper, and they want the Provincials, but they want more games. That's going to be very tricky to do.
Yeah that seems to be it in high level terms but I wonder have the any ideas on it. Is a round-robin at the beginning of the championship to qualify for the latter stages a runner at all I wonder?