Death Notices

Started by Armagh4SamAgain, April 05, 2007, 03:25:33 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Champion The Wonder Horse

Quote from: armaghniac on November 26, 2020, 10:19:47 PM
Yes, Maradona is so wonderful that he is better than Best.

He was, yes.

Armamike

Quote from: mouview on November 26, 2020, 04:01:42 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 26, 2020, 12:13:48 AM
Quote from: mouview on November 25, 2020, 11:50:42 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 25, 2020, 06:16:09 PM
Diego existed far and away above anything so trivial as football

He is best looked at as an other worldly liberator of whole peoples

Their entire existence, their entire sense of themselves was validated by him

This is not an exaggeration in any sense - this is genuinely how he made the peoples of Argentina and of Naples feel

In a world sense and in a non football sense, only the likes of Mandela, Martin Luther King and Gandhi had this sort of effect

In history and legend, what he did for Argentina in those four minutes in 1986 was like what Moses did for the Israelites

He was the chosen one

Senna was the Brazilian equivalent.

Sorry but Maradona not GOAT. Messi for me.
Other than them being from South America, at their respective peaks in the late 1980s and having rivetting documentaries about them made by Asif Kapadia, they aren't really comparable





Senna came from 'money' while Maradona patently did not; however, the effect both had on their compatriots was the same. Both were beacons, icons to populations beset with poverty and government indifference and corruption. Both were aspirations to what their people would like to be.

Muhammad Ali was called The Greatest, due perhaps to his personality and the effect he had on the zeitgeist of his era, rather than as much to do with his ring craft. He was scarcely the greatest boxer of all time. In the same way, I think people are conflating Maradona's greatness with his tumultuous times and the stormy life he led. Sure, he played at a time when referee protection was much less and opponents were given more licence to physically stop him from playing, even if it was hardly the brutal free-for-all fest that some would have you believe. His time at the pinnacle was brief by and large, from say 1986 - 1990. His club career, injury-blighted of course, at Barce' was underwhelming, the same post-Napoli where he made little impression at Sevilla and wherever else.

Messi, for longevity alone, is IMO superior to Maradona. He has bestrode the Champions League, (regarded for a good number of years now as the premier competition in football, quality and standard wise)  for over a decade. He has scored the type of 'England 1986' goal many's a time for Barce' and his club performances for a spell in the early to mid years of this decade have been at times stupidly brilliant. Never more so when he masterminded the destruction of Real Madrid almost 10 years ago now;

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/nov/29/barcelona-real-madrid-la-liga

He might have won the '06 WC in Germany if that dolt Pekerman favoured boldness instead of caution. He was never going to win it under Maradona in 2010. Somewhat unfit I think in 2014 and perhaps 2018.

Maradona's great moments were like lightning, brief brilliant flashes. Messi's were a constant blaze of brilliance.

Is longevity that important really?  Is Messi better because he has been at the top for 15 years. Maradona had around 10 years, from 1980 to 1990.  I don't think greatness should be measured in longevity. Compare it to Gaelic.  The greatest player I've seen in my lifetime was Matt Connor.  He only had 3 or 4 years.  The fact he didn't have 10-12 years doesn't diminish his greatness in my eyes. I saw enough in those 3 or 4 years.
That's just, like your opinion man.

bannside

Frank Mc Guigan anyone?

sid waddell

Diego had plenty of longevity, he made his debut in the Argentine first division in 1976, before he turned 16

When he played in Argentine football it was the equal and probably more of anywhere in Europe, as was the case with Brazilian football - European teams had a very poor record in the Intercontinental Cup

thewobbler

#7144
FWIW in my book Maradona was the most entertaining player I've ever seen, an extraordinary mix of technique, balance, close control and power. He was pretty much a unique footballer, in some movements using his power to render the best defenders in world as tools to bounce out of tackles and steal a yard, and in alternate movements leaving their colleagues bamboozled and gasping for air.

The only player in my lifetime with similar attributes at the highest level, was Gascoigne - but in terms of output, that's  like comparing Barcelona with Newcastle. Hence his uniqueness.

But does that make him a better player than Messi or Ronaldo? Honestly, I don't think  so.  Longevity is the easy marker. Consistency is the more relevant one. Diego just didn't have the consistency of the other players who are normally hallmarked for the best player of all time. At his best there was nothing like him. But that doesn't make him the best, anymore than writing a couple of the greatest songs makes you the best songwriter of all time.

Plus anyone  dismissing Messi's credentials for playing in an era without tackles from behind should really consider just how few brick shithouse 6' 3" sprinters played centre half in Maradona's day. They might not be able to kick you these days, but the modern defender is on a different level in terms of physical presence and pace.


sid waddell

England v Argentina 1980

2:35 here

The greatest goal of all time was six years in the making

Maradona's brother asked him "why didn't you go around the goalkeeper"?

He did six years later, he remembered 1980

Though it should probably be mentioned that Ray Clemence was a better goalkeeper than Peter Shilton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6PchZvly8k&feature=emb_title

Captain Obvious


Armamike

Quote from: sid waddell on November 27, 2020, 12:32:41 AM
England v Argentina 1980

2:35 here

The greatest goal of all time was six years in the making

Maradona's brother asked him "why didn't you go around the goalkeeper"?

He did six years later, he remembered 1980

Though it should probably be mentioned that Ray Clemence was a better goalkeeper than Peter Shilton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6PchZvly8k&feature=emb_title

Nobody could do what he could with the ball at his feet.
That's just, like your opinion man.

seafoid

Maradona's father was Guarani.

"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Maroon Manc

Quote from: thewobbler on November 26, 2020, 11:55:20 PM
FWIW in my book Maradona was the most entertaining player I've ever seen, an extraordinary mix of technique, balance, close control and power. He was pretty much a unique footballer, in some movements using his power to render the best defenders in world as tools to bounce out of tackles and steal a yard, and in alternate movements leaving their colleagues bamboozled and gasping for air.

The only player in my lifetime with similar attributes at the highest level, was Gascoigne - but in terms of output, that's  like comparing Barcelona with Newcastle. Hence his uniqueness.

But does that make him a better player than Messi or Ronaldo? Honestly, I don't think  so.  Longevity is the easy marker. Consistency is the more relevant one. Diego just didn't have the consistency of the other players who are normally hallmarked for the best player of all time. At his best there was nothing like him. But that doesn't make him the best, anymore than writing a couple of the greatest songs makes you the best songwriter of all time.

Plus anyone  dismissing Messi's credentials for playing in an era without tackles from behind should really consider just how few brick shithouse 6' 3" sprinters played centre half in Maradona's day. They might not be able to kick you these days, but the modern defender is on a different level in terms of physical presence and pace.

From the age of 17/18 until 30 Maradona was consistent, don't get why you think he was inconsistent? His goal record is phenomenal for a player during that era and given the position he played.




J70

He also single-handedly dragged a nothing, provincial club to league and European titles, and his country to two World Cup finals, winning one.

His impact on his teams was like that of a superstar basketball player, not a soccer player.

nrico2006

His second goal against England was a brilliant goal, but wouldn't be near the best ever. 
'To the extreme I rock a mic like a vandal, light up a stage and wax a chump like a candle.'

Armamike

Which goal or goals did you have in mind? His effort against Belgium?
That's just, like your opinion man.

thewobbler

Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 27, 2020, 12:32:12 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 26, 2020, 11:55:20 PM
FWIW in my book Maradona was the most entertaining player I've ever seen, an extraordinary mix of technique, balance, close control and power. He was pretty much a unique footballer, in some movements using his power to render the best defenders in world as tools to bounce out of tackles and steal a yard, and in alternate movements leaving their colleagues bamboozled and gasping for air.

The only player in my lifetime with similar attributes at the highest level, was Gascoigne - but in terms of output, that's  like comparing Barcelona with Newcastle. Hence his uniqueness.

But does that make him a better player than Messi or Ronaldo? Honestly, I don't think  so.  Longevity is the easy marker. Consistency is the more relevant one. Diego just didn't have the consistency of the other players who are normally hallmarked for the best player of all time. At his best there was nothing like him. But that doesn't make him the best, anymore than writing a couple of the greatest songs makes you the best songwriter of all time.

Plus anyone  dismissing Messi's credentials for playing in an era without tackles from behind should really consider just how few brick shithouse 6' 3" sprinters played centre half in Maradona's day. They might not be able to kick you these days, but the modern defender is on a different level in terms of physical presence and pace.

From the age of 17/18 until 30 Maradona was consistent, don't get why you think he was inconsistent? His goal record is phenomenal for a player during that era and given the position he played.

"His goal record is phenomenal".

This isn't true. Throughout his peak decade (1980s) he averaged a goal every other game for club and country. That is a good return. It might even be very good.

But it wasnt unusual, outlandish or freaky in any way. Definitely not unattainable for a host of top class players in any generation. So it's not phenomenal. I would call it the minimum bar anyone would expect for the best player in the world.

——

As for inconsistent, I'm being harsh here. But if we are going to assess him as the greatest player of all time, then it is a claim that has to be evaluated severely. International football was the peak measuring then.  Maradona's extraordinary 1986 World Cup performances were bookended by mediocre ones in 82 and 90. Of course you'll point to him playing through injuries on those occasions. But that doesn't change the fact that Argentina were only just about a fearsome side throughout that decade, even though Maradona was with them.

——

I adore Maradona the footballer. But i still think it takes a clear and uneven dose of subjectivity to rank him higher than Messi or Ronaldo.