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Its not up to us to offer a solution as to why your county is rubbish on and off the pitch

😂😂 no it's not , but it is up to you to reflect , along with the many Dubliners who are already doing so, that the more AIs you win under current finances and structures , the less value those wins are. The GAA owes it to these great Dublin players , to give them the opportunity to win a fair All-Ireland.

There has never been such a thing as a "fair" All-Ireland

Representative sport is not about fairness

The argument here is to put measures in place to make it competitive across the board

That's a different thing altogether from fairness

Competitiveness across all the GAA has always been lacking

The 2015 All-Ireland quarter-final between Kerry and Kildare was not competitive

The 1993 All-Ireland semi-final between Cork and Mayo was not competitive

The 1994 All-Ireland semi-final between Dublin and Leitrim was not competitive

I don't understand the point of the list of names there. Kilkenny had players who needed replaced. Dublin had players who needed replaced. What does that show? If you'd listed one all time great being replaced by another fair enough but they're just lists of players who played and then needed to be replaced because they stopped? Some of those Dublin players weren't even starters most of the time. I'm not even sure Byrne or Horne always started for Kilkenny?

The pertinent Dublin ones who have been replaced are to me Flynn, two brogans, Connolly and arguably o' Carroll who was a very good full back. (Actually a guy who Dublin based a lot on was O'Sullivan at chb so him too). There is five boys who would grace any team in any era and a boy who you base your defense round replaced seamlessly.

To be fair hogan and Reid replaced top quality with top quality but the likes of Walsh etc just not the same level. To me they replaced DJ with henry(slight overlap) and Henry with tj (again slight overlap).

That is not to forget the Cody factor. The thing that stands out to me as well on Dublin is that I don't think anyone will ever credit Jim gavin with how good he really was because of this dominance. For all the talk of money etc it had to gel together and he made that happen and created a setup which doesn't look it will be undone for a very long time.

(So Dublin had to get their house in order and did very much so but really aren't the same as KK at all imo)

It is a common talking point that Dublin's success from 2011 to 2020 is not generational - that no previous team in GAA history had seamlessly replaced players yet managed to still be dominant

Yet Kilkenny from 2000 to 2009 did the exact same thing - they seamlessly replaced pretty much an entire team while still being dominant

In fact they did it to a greater degree than Dublin have done - Dublin have had a good few more players from 2011 still knocking around the panel in 2020 than Kilkenny had players from 2000 still knocking around in 2009

Kilkenny phased out a load of great or very good players through the 2000s

DJ
Charlie Carter
Willie O'Connor
Brian McEvoy
Peter Barry
John Power
Denis Byrne
Andy Comerford
John Hoyne
Philip Larkin
Cha Fitzpatrick

Pretty similar to what Dublin have done with:
Flynn
Brogan x 2
Connolly
Bastick
O'Gara
Barry Cahill
Kevin Nolan
Ger Brennan
Bryan Cullen
Rory O'Carroll

Kilkenny brought in some very good players post-2009:
TJ Reid really only established himself after 2009
Same with Richie Hogan
Paul Murphy
Cillian Buckley
Walter Walsh
Colin Fennelly
Padraig Walsh
Kieran Joyce
Conor Fogarty

But good as they were, the whole package was always waning because the players that were leaving were true all time greats and most of the new players weren't quite at that level

In six years' time, how many of the current main men for Dublin will still be there

Probably only Howard and Con

Lads who are good but not as good will likely replace the current main men

It's easier to manufacture footballers. Skill levels are lower.
The Dublin machine can continue indefinitely.

If skill levels in hurling are more specialised and take longer to perfect than Gaelic football, ie. if skill levels in Gaelic football are lower - and I'd agree they are - then the excuses for the rest start to fall away

NI students will still be able to participate in the Erasmus programme whereas those in Britain won't be able to

Will they? Eramus works through institutions, not citizenship. A British person attending TCD can go on Erasmus, an Irish person attending UU probably cannot, unless there is an arrangement as part of the NI deal.

It seems if they go to NI colleges they'll be able to

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-55442685

Kilkenny phased out a load of great or very good players through the 2000s

DJ
Charlie Carter
Willie O'Connor
Brian McEvoy
Peter Barry
John Power
Denis Byrne
Andy Comerford
John Hoyne
Philip Larkin
Cha Fitzpatrick

Pretty similar to what Dublin have done with:
Flynn
Brogan x 2
Connolly
Bastick
O'Gara
Barry Cahill
Kevin Nolan
Ger Brennan
Bryan Cullen
Rory O'Carroll

Kilkenny brought in some very good players post-2009:
TJ Reid really only established himself after 2009
Same with Richie Hogan
Paul Murphy
Cillian Buckley
Walter Walsh
Colin Fennelly
Padraig Walsh
Kieran Joyce
Conor Fogarty

But good as they were, the whole package was always waning because the players that were leaving were true all time greats and most of the new players weren't quite at that level

In six years' time, how many of the current main men for Dublin will still be there

Probably only Howard and Con

Lads who are good but not as good will likely replace the current main men

[This is the one aspect of Dublin's run of success that sets them apart from Kerry, Kilkenny hurlers]

I couldn't help thinking of Con Houlihan's grandfather's spade as I see how effortlessly Dublin can effortlessly shunt great players whose sell by date is approaching and replace them with youngsters who can hit the ground running.
This is the one aspect of Dublin's run of success that sets them apart from Kerry, Kilkenny hurlers or any other team that stood out in their times - all of them were eventually hauled in as they didn't have ready made players of equal stature waiting in the wings when the likes of Shefflin and Sheehy had to call it a day.

Kilkenny did the exact same thing Dublin have done since 2011 - they had two starters in 2009 from their first All-Ireland in 2000

Look at the all time greats of the game they brought through most years

Shefflin had been there since '99
Brennan was a sub in 2000
Delaney in 2001?
Walsh in 2003
Brian Hogan in 2004
Larkin in 2005
Tyrrell in 2005/06
Power around 05/06 as well
Reid in '08 as a sub but he didn't properly establish himself for a few years
Richie Hogan in '09
Michael Fennelly was captain in '09 but only a sub so it was 2010 before he properly established himself

That's very similar to what Dublin have done with:
Ciaran Kilkenny '12
McCaffrey '13
Mannion '13
Cooper '13
Fenton '15
Small '16
O'Callaghan '17
Howard '18

Dublin now have a bigger group of impending departures than Kilkenny did in '09 - Cluxton, MDMA, McMahon, O'Sullivan, McManamon, Andrews

Fitzsimons is 31
James McCarthy is 31 soon
Jonny Cooper is 31
Dean Rock is 31
Even the Fenton/McCaffrey/Small/Mannion/Ciaran Kilkenny generation were all born in '93 - Fenton will be 28 in March which is hard to believe - so they are no longer young and they are not going to get better

Things don't stay the same for long

Kilkenny kept things going for a good few years after '09 but they were always waning ever so slightly and that waning became very apparent in '13, even though they came back for two more All-Irelands afterwards

The quality of the players they were bringing through declined, how could it not - I wonder will the same happen with Dublin, I expect it will, or at least the furious dedication will wane to some extent

[The Tailtean Cup will be a much more interesting and fair competition.]

Probably the view of 90% at this stage.

Due to financial doping, a flawed system (that allows fresh Dubs to play tired teams) home matches all the time, and ten times the population of other counties to choose from.

Time for other 31 counties to man up to Gaa and tell them its time to tame the beast that they have created.

Dublin are the best team ever, and play within the rules. My problem isnt with them, its with the flawed system. The Tailtean Cup will be a much more interesting and fair competition.

Will it though?

I doubt many people will be interested. How many were interested in the Murphy cup? Can anyone name the teams that won the competition?

Sure most of the players themselves weren't even interested, the basic rule about the Tommy Murphy Cup was that if you wanted to win it, you'd probably win it, because nobody else cared whether they won it

Benny how about a NY resolution to stop knocking the Tailteann Cup?

Rugby already has such a rule for the Pro14, it doesn't work

Article in Irish news today, very interesting .
Down , a midrange county in football and hurling in terms of success, has the 4th largest population in Ireland , we receive the least amount of games development grant from Croke park , of all 32 counties. Logistics wise we have challenges as football training is based at southern extreme of the county and uniquely most of our hurlers have to get a ferry to train on a 100 x60 4g pitch. We were beaten by a point in the AI final of 2010, just before Dublin's decade of financial and playing dominance. Each year we have to negotiate our way past the likes of Donegal Monaghan Tyrone Armagh mostly away from home. How on earth can we expect to match the Dublin giant?
I cheered Dublin in 2011 v Kerry , have Dublin family , so I definitely am not anti-Dublin. In 2011 little did I suspect that the GAA had created a monster.
I plead with Dublin  supporters on this thread to propose a fair solution to this farce rather than blindly defending the indefensible .

I've proposed at least four solutions

i) No Dublin matches in Croke Park outside of League finals, Leinster finals, All-Ireland semis/finals - and potentially you could look at taking even some of those out of Croke Park
ii) Reduction back to three subs per game
iii) Sponsorship redistribution, ie. each county keeps 50% of sponsorship money, 50% to a central pool to be divided equally per county, the details would have to be worked out but that's the principle
iv) Revamp the league to a Division 1A, 1B, 2A 2B format as per most of the 2000s - this gives a more even spread of competition for each county

Retaining centralised mileage payments should help as well

The rest really is up to counties themselves

Roaming charges back on!

You have been shafted of your EU citizenry.
The country's now split between Brexit Irish and EU Irish, but hey, hands across the border.

All people born in NI have the right to EU citizenship

NI students will still be able to participate in the Erasmus programme whereas those in Britain won't be able to

The Irish government have played a blinder throughout this whole process

But what a waste of time and energy for them

[As for Narrow water and Kilmichael I have no great problem with either - an elite group of professional soldiers were attacked in the middle of a conflict.]

Big difference between the 1919-22 IRA and the 1970/05 IRA was informers.
The 1919/21 crew infiltrated Dublin Castle and finished off the Cairo gang.
As Trailer said the Provos were seriously infected with informers right up to the top informer catcher.
As for Narrow water and Kilmichael I have no great problem with either - an elite group of professional soldiers were attacked in the middle of a conflict.
Meanwhile time for Sid and Angelo to do a Brian Stanley and stay off GAAboard for a week.

What are your views on the "shoot to kill" policy"?  Always seemed that it was only ever a "war" when it suited the Republican movement.

In my own personal opinion Michael, as grim as it's sounds, and I'm sure if it was one my family members it might change my view, I would have no problem with the shoot to kill policy if the Brits admitted it was a war. But they don't. So you can't have a government killing their own unarmed citizens.

So okay if they were armed / on "active service"?

Loughgall and Gibraltar were fine by the rules the PIRA played according to

To me they were flat out murder, but the PIRA chose their rules of engagement, so they can hardly complain

[Big difference between the 1919-22 IRA and the 1970/05 IRA was informers.The 1919/21 crew infiltrated Dublin Castle and finished off the Cairo gang]

Big difference between the 1919-22 IRA and the 1970/05 IRA was informers.
The 1919/21 crew infiltrated Dublin Castle and finished off the Cairo gang.
As Trailer said the Provos were seriously infected with informers right up to the top informer catcher.
As for Narrow water and Kilmichael I have no great problem with either - an elite group of professional soldiers were attacked in the middle of a conflict.
Meanwhile time for Sid and Angelo to do a Brian Stanley and stay off GAAboard for a week.

You are aware that this is questionable in the bigger picture as the Brits doubled down on their intelligence post Bloody Sunday and if anything their intelligence improved.

There's a lot of similarities between the treaty talks in 1921 and the peace process in 1994.

Both Collins and the IRA leadership in both periods knew they couldn't win militarily and needed something to show for their efforts and cut a deal that didn't deliver the end goal but was a step further.
Collins got/was given the 26 but the 1994 version was only given the possibility of a UI referendum. The last step will be the biggest and IMO the soundings around a UI referendum are a lot more further forward thanks to Brexit but and I will repeat this that Sinn Fein should not be involved in that process unless they are in government in the South.

When the time comes for a UI referendum Sinn Fein will do more harm than good in getting main stream protestant/unionist buy in for it, the drivers for that need to be from the current incumbents in FF/FG but sadly Martin is worse than useless, and Varadkar lacks a little bit of substance. Coveney is probably the most capable at the minute.

As for the effectiveness of informers in the PIRA, they were undoubtedly there but as the Canary Wharf bomb showed they were still able to get big operations off the ground. There's no doubt in my mind and it is well documented that Major was visited by the big Banks based in the City of London and told to sort it out. The back channels were already in operation and came to the forefront after that.
If the provos had been so badly riddled with informers then there's no way that bomb would have been allowed to happen.

The big problem is FF and FG are both partitionist parties. They have created an elite Catholic ruling class in the 26 and neither FF/FG or the DUP/UUP are interested in giving up their ascendancy status in each of the failed states on this island. SF whether you like them or don't, are the only major political party on this island with an appetite for a United Ireland but they are also by far an away now the biggest political party on this island.

FG/FF subscribe to the Good Friday Agreement

So do Sinn Fein

So if FG/FF are partitionist in your book, then so must Sinn Fein be

Again, not me saying it, you're saying it

My belief is that Sinn Fein are indeed a united Ireland party first and foremost

And though I would like to see a united Ireland, it would be around about bottom of my list of priorities in terms of what I want to see in Irish politics

Bread and butter issues are infinitely more important than irredentism and nationalism

Any hypothetical united Ireland, when it comes, the abolition of the Irish tricolour and Amhran na bhFiann as the national anthem are a starting point

Question for all the Shinnerbots here:

i) Was the Allied campaign in World War II, on the whole, justified? (allowing that some horrible things happened during it)
ii) Was the US/British campaign in Iraq in 2003, on the whole, justified?

Answer the questions, now

And you were banging on that questions about the Old IRA were irrelevant to the subject matter.

Nonetheless, I'll indulge you.

i) Yes
ii) No

Now, back to your question

So you accept that one war can be justified and another cannot

You now accept the premise that equating the War of Independence to the PIRA campaign in terms of moral justifiability is just as stupid as equating World War II to Iraq in terms of moral justifiability

That they are not the same

Civilian slaughter of course occurred in the War of Independence and that can never be justified

But the overall campaign has a plausible claim to moral justifiability in a way the PIRA campaign does not - in the same way that the Allied campaign of World War II has a claim of moral justification while the Iraq War does not

Question for all the Shinnerbots here:

i) Was the Allied campaign in World War II, on the whole, justified? (allowing that some horrible things happened during it)
ii) Was the US/British campaign in Iraq in 2003, on the whole, justified?

Answer the questions, now

I'm not a shinnerbot but just to answer,

1- yes
2- No

But I think the issue is you claimed the PIRA campaign was a Civilian murder campaign. But the stats would be more towards military targets. Therefore given the old IRA also had civilian deaths would it also be considered a civilian murder campaign?

So you accept that one war can be plausibly justified and another cannot

I accept that too

Civilian murders take place in all wars, in the War of Independence, the PIRA campaign, World War II, and Iraq

But as we now accept, World War II and Iraq are not morally equivalent

And neither are the War of Independence and the PIRA campaign morally equivalent

The PIRA knew they had no hope whatsoever of winning - they knew this early, and yet they kept going for 28 years

Again I ask for exact statistics about civilian murders in the War of Independence - how many, when, where, and the views of historians of them

The PIRA murdered 644 civilians over 28 years as well as over a thousand others and did so right up to the end in a campaign they never had a hope of winning and which did nothing except inflict societal devastation

When I ask what was it for, the answer can only be nothing

And Warrenpoint and Teebane and Deal and the many boob trap car bombs on RUC officers were just as futile as the civilian murder, killing for the sake of killing

And therefore the moral justification for the campaign is non-existent and those who waged it should live with the knowledge and the shame that they did nothing except bring devastation to their areas and the areas of many others

This is the central denial at the heart of Sinn Fein today, they refuse to accept this

The PIRA were hated by the people of the south who saw right through them and in the north the SDLP consistently polled way above them - the people of the north also saw through them

Slow learners indeed

Yes,
No.
Up Tyrone.

They didn't bring Uncle Sam home