Tyrone v Dublin - The return of the Jedi

[Aughafad]

Its going to be great craic with Jim Gavin and Mickey Harte both giving RTE the cold shoulder leading up to this game.

[RedHand88]

There's a Dublin page claiming tickets are on general sale tomorrow on the website and in Centra and Supervalu. Can't see this anywhere else and no mention on the tickets website itself.
Anyone know anything?

[Wildweasel74]

way too early for tickets i think

[RedHand88]

way too early for tickets i think

That's what i would have thought. Didnt think general sale would have been for another week at least

[omaghjoe]

Tyrone's system is very good at snuffing out teams who rely on a particular forward, or even 2... McManus, Clarke, McBrearty & Murphy.

Dublin have 6 forwards already who are class then McManamon, Brogan, Flynn, Costello and of course Connolly to come in.

Finally the inbred upstarts from over the mountain will be put back in their box and Saint Mickey can head for the seminary. . . for everyone's sake!

Must be "bitterly" cold up in Londonderry, wi no football te watch, this time a the year sir    lmao

Ahnow Ahnowref no call for that

Tho Tyrone must be pretty good at snuffing out teams that dont have any forwards too as displayed in their championship opener.

[Fuzzman]

Was looking forward to reading Jim's article in the Irish Times this week and again he doesn't let me down.
I agree that MH tactics have brought us to the table with at least a realistic chance of beating the Dubs but only time will tell.
Sorry for full copy and paste but I'm on my phone.

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Jim McGuinness: D-Day for Tyrone as Harte prepares real questions for Dublin
The champions have yet to be tested but that's about to change and there's no guarantee they have the answers

Dublin's Paul Mannion in action against  Drew Wylie of Monaghan during the  All-Ireland SFC quarter-final at Croke Park. Photograph: Ryan Byrne/Inpho
Dublin's Paul Mannion in action against Drew Wylie of Monaghan during the All-Ireland SFC quarter-final at Croke Park. Photograph: Ryan Byrne/Inpho

Jim McGuinness
51 minutes ago
     
You could see Dublin's intentions clearly in the first 30 seconds of Saturday's quarter-final. Paul Mannion took a very good score off his left foot. He's a very good player with pace, agility and confidence, which isn't a great combination for any opposition corner back but what caught my eye was how quickly the ball was moved in the opening seconds.

There was no solo or hop needed. It was very clear that Dublin weren't going to take the ball into contact – just move it first time, every time and don't give a defensive team like Monaghan what they need, which is the opportunity to tackle and turn the ball over.

You could see their game plan immediately, including defensively. Monaghan kicked the ball in for their opening attack and Philly McMahon bats it down and Jonny Cooper sweeps it up. It was a three versus two situation for Dublin. As the game progressed Cian O'Sullivan also played that role, which he's been doing for the past couple of campaigns.

It is clear that Dublin have refined a game plan based on what's been going on in football over the past couple of years and taken it to a high level.

They have defenders who would probably be able to hold their own one-on-one against most forwards anyway but they also have the safety net of a tried and practised sweeper system operated by intelligent players like O'Sullivan and Cooper, who know where exactly they should be and have the ability to mark space.

The other interesting thing for me was the extent to which Dublin went zonal on the Monaghan kick-out. This isn't a new tactic but Dublin decided to push four players into the full-forward line and three in the half-forward line. It forced Monaghan to go long but for me it didn't work.


Four is a lot to push into the full-forward line and once or twice Rory Beggan clipped the ball over the four of them into that pocket between the 20 and 45 and Monaghan got out with the ball. That tactic got them out two or three times and that's a lot of bodies for Dublin to have committed to that area of the field if you're not going to win possession.

It changed because Monaghan decided they were going to go long anyway and that was when Dublin really took control in the middle of the park.

It was interesting stuff from Jim Gavin even if it didn't work.

With Tyrone in mind, this could be risky. Obviously if you have seven pushed up, you've only seven at the back and a 'keeper like Niall Morgan who can pick out a long pass over the top and take out seven and maybe eight opposition players.

If you've got the right players in the middle of the park, you've got a situation where a team could get at them and maybe score goals. It will be interesting to see if Dublin persist with that tactic in the semi-final.

Like Galway the previous week, Monaghan conceded the kick-outs. I mentioned last week the importance for teams to try to jolt more highly-rated opponents off course, making them think differently and even to alter their game plan if possible.

But if you're going to hand these teams their kick-out, they're simply going to be able to go through their routines and processes. You had the situation where Stephen Cluxton was able to kick the ball out over a Monaghan player and into the hands of a team-mate running into space.

Dublin players continued to get ahead of the ball: four uncontested passes and the ball ends up over the bar at the other end.


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Jim McGuinness: Tyrone are gathering All-Ireland pace
The other big battleground was discipline and fouls, particularly fouls around the 45 – in Dean Rock's case – or more generally, inside the 45. Monaghan conceded five points from frees in the first half.

Between uncontested kick-outs and indiscipline Monaghan conceded six points in the first half. Subtract that from the half-time score of 0-11 to 0-3 and it's a lot more manageable.

They're the kind of percentages that Mickey Harte will be looking at in the next three weeks: how can they keep the game incredibly tight and competitive and also bring enough to the table themselves so that they can really ask questions of Dublin?

Like Galway, Monaghan decided they were going to play 13 or14 behind the ball. Also like Galway they decided to give up the middle and first third and set up defensively along the 45. This is a concept I struggle with, to be honest.

In certain situations and in certain games, yes; there is potential for that tactic. But I would ask why a team can't do both.

Why can't you be very aggressive, purposeful and intent on stopping the opposition building the play while they transition?

And at the same time while you have two or three players exerting real pressure trying to force errors and turnovers, the other players are dovetailing back and making sure you have the defensive shape you want along the 45.

Why can't your full forwards be hassling and harrying with the odd half forward joining in and the other half forwards dropping back with one midfielder joining in and the other falling back? Six along the 45 and you've got defensive shape but you've also got energy, intensity and pressure on the ball.

I don't understand why it has to be one or the other.


Dublin are managing to run the ball up the field with their heads up and looking for options because they've nothing else to bother them. If you want to knock Dublin off their perch, psychologically ruffling them is a prerequisite.

There's also a difference between a packed defence and a proactive packed defence, playing with the necessary intensity.

Jack McCaffrey kicked Dublin's sixth point and it was a classic example of what we used to call in Donegal the 'hope you miss' attitude. He got around four or five players but they were hoping he wouldn't score rather than throwing everything at him trying to make sure that he didn't.

I believe that Tyrone believe they are good enough. Mickey Harte will be fully aware of the tactical requirements and the aggression and ruthlessness needed to take Dublin on in the semi-final.

If you do – and this is an important point – bring all of those things to the table, all you get is the opportunity to compete with the big teams. It doesn't mean that you're going to win but if you can't get even as far as that table it means you're going to lose.

I don't think Monaghan gave themselves the opportunity to compete.

Tyrone will and the positive consideration for them is that their game will suit taking on Dublin. It's predicated more on running the ball than kicking it and they do that very aggressively. If Dublin are going to go plus-one at the back, then Tyrone will be plus-one in running the ball from deep. What happens then?

Do Dublin push out to stop the overload coming from deep or look to keep the numbers at the back to protect your full-back line? This game could get very interesting.

With Mickey Harte working on it for the next few weeks, questions will be asked.


The big one is, have the Dublin forwards the ability to play under extreme pressure? I'm not so sure. I suspect that some of the old failings are there under the surface but very few teams are able to take Dublin to places where these questions get asked. On the very few occasions that Monaghan got any meaningful pressure on the Dublin forwards, they missed.

The big question for Tyrone is whether we are getting a proper read on Dublin. The difference between the teams will be that one is going for a three-in-a-row whereas the others are pretenders with the dynamic of a young team going in as underdogs.

They're hungry and double Ulster champions and outsiders. It's really set up for them. All the talk leading up to the weekend was about the hurt of last year so they go in with a focus of wanting to take these guys down and I think that attitude better suits a defensive team than one trying to play their way through.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong and Dublin have fully morphed into a team that is very comfortable facing a packed defence but the truth is we don't know.

There's something not adding up when you have a player like James McCarthy able to run more or less wherever he wants with hardly a finger being laid on him and you have passages of play where possession is kept for an uninterrupted minute. In an All-Ireland quarter-final where if you lose, you're out!

You need extraordinary conviction to take on the top teams as well as the right tactics.

The one thing we can guarantee with Mickey Harte is that he will be excellent at squeezing the percentages. The big question is can they drag Dublin into a brawl? Can they create enough energy to jolt them off course and disrupt their natural patterns? Ultimately can they force Dublin to play another way?


If the answer to those questions is yes and they bring their kicking boots we could be in for the game of the season.

Remember though that any time Dublin have been dragged into a scrap in the past number of seasons, they have always ended up on the right side of the result. So if everything runs to form something will have to give.

[TheGreatest]

Please behave when visiting the capital to play at the home of the champions and greatest team of all time. Start drinking after the match if you lot cant handle it.

Tyrone very impressive v Armagh, good attacking style with lots of possession, looking at both games live it looked like both Dublin and Tyrone have similar styles of play that could either make it a good attacking game of ball or an absolute stalemate , will only be a couple of points either way for this one, maybe  a draw. Tyrone are the biggest threat to Dublin in years.

[Taylor]

Please behave when visiting the capital to play at the home of the champions and greatest team of all time. Start drinking after the match if you lot cant handle it.

Tyrone very impressive v Armagh, good attacking style with lots of possession, looking at both games live it looked like both Dublin and Tyrone have similar styles of play that could either make it a good attacking game of ball or an absolute stalemate , will only be a couple of points either way for this one, maybe  a draw. Tyrone are the biggest threat to Dublin in years.

We promise not to drink until after the game as long as you share your marching powder with us?

[Hound]

Most interesting part of McGuinness's article:

The big one is, have the Dublin forwards the ability to play under extreme pressure? I'm not so sure. I suspect that some of the old failings are there under the surface but very few teams are able to take Dublin to places where these questions get asked. On the very few occasions that Monaghan got any meaningful pressure on the Dublin forwards, they missed.

It seems he thinks a few of our forwards are of the windy variety.

In our recent games v Tyrone, my recollection is that they made our forward play look very ordinary, running into cul-de-sacs, and running out of ideas. But Tyrone's forwards weren't good enough to take advantage so we still didn't lose.

There is, of course, a difference between league and championship. But also I think it's clear Tyrone are better now than the teams we played in the league encounters. They've found a position for Harte that really showcases his abilities (never liked his as a centre half back).

Colm Cavanaugh was down a couple of times in the second half on Saturday with a sore back, and didn't look good at all going off. I'd guess it's an injury he's been managing rather than something that just came on. Be very important to get him fit and ready for the 70 minutes.

I reckon there'll be one change to the starting Dublin team with either Flynn or Connolly coming into the half forward line. Hopefully it's Connolly. 

[Buttofthehill]

One thing that always confuses me is the notion that if you're level with Dublin with 15 mins to go you've a great chance.

I mean look at Kerry (league final) and Donegal in 2014. They both streaked away from Dublin tin the 3rd quarter and held on in the last 10-15 mins. More Kerry than Donegal granted.

But this notion that Dublin are there for the taking in the last 15 mins belongs in the Pillar days.

With the firepower Dublin have to bring on, I'd be quite confident if it's level with 15 to go.

I'd go so far as to say for Tyrone to win, they'd need to be 4-6 points up with 15 to go.

[Il Bomber Destro]

One thing that always confuses me is the notion that if you're level with Dublin with 15 mins to go you've a great chance.

I mean look at Kerry (league final) and Donegal in 2014. They both streaked away from Dublin tin the 3rd quarter and held on in the last 10-15 mins. More Kerry than Donegal granted.

But this notion that Dublin are there for the taking in the last 15 mins belongs in the Pillar days.

With the firepower Dublin have to bring on, I'd be quite confident if it's level with 15 to go.

I'd go so far as to say for Tyrone to win, they'd need to be 4-6 points up with 15 to go.

Weren't Dublin 7 points or so up on Mayo going into the last 10 or 15 minutes in 2015?

[Hound]

One thing that always confuses me is the notion that if you're level with Dublin with 15 mins to go you've a great chance.

I mean look at Kerry (league final) and Donegal in 2014. They both streaked away from Dublin tin the 3rd quarter and held on in the last 10-15 mins. More Kerry than Donegal granted.

But this notion that Dublin are there for the taking in the last 15 mins belongs in the Pillar days.

With the firepower Dublin have to bring on, I'd be quite confident if it's level with 15 to go.

I'd go so far as to say for Tyrone to win, they'd need to be 4-6 points up with 15 to go.

Weren't Dublin 7 points or so up on Mayo going into the last 10 or 15 minutes against Dublin in 2015?

True. Momentum!

That was Brian Fenton's first season as a regular starter, and he'd been solid up to that, but had a super day that day. Then Gavin took him off in what I believe was a substitution pre-planned before the start. Every manager makes mistakes, and for me that was Gavin's biggest and he was blessed to get away with it. Mayo put the brakes on when they got level. (Although someone told me recently that Jack McCaffrey did a brilliant interception or turnover when it was level that gained us proper possession for the first time in an age which allowed us to get to the final whistle, so I must check that out at some stage).

If Dublin v Tyrone is close going into the final 10 minutes, I won't be counting any chickens!   

[rrhf]

False modesty?

[Mayo4Sam14]

Tyrone the only team capable of stoppin dublin but 3 in a row almost inevitable imo

[rrhf]

There's absolutely no pressure on Tyrone here. They are 3rd or 4th favourites against the greatest team to play the game. This game could be another 10 point win for Dublin or Tyrone might get closer but realistically Tyrone need 1 more year to win these types of games again.