Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football

Started by APM, October 02, 2018, 04:43:21 PM

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DuffleKing

Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 12:17:26 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 07, 2019, 10:46:54 AM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

What is it about the experimental rules that you think make it advantageous to "push up" (Pep style)? If your answer is that a 4th handpass in a row being a foul will put players under pressure* you are even further discredited in this discussion (if that's possible).
If teams press up into their forward line to win the ball back (which is not a new concept) they are leaving man on man scenarios in their own half of the field and crowding their own attacking space.
* If you think teams will be under pressure because of the handpass restriction you obviously haven't been to any games yet - they just turn and kick it back to the keeper then start again.

DuffleKing

Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 01:42:45 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on January 07, 2019, 12:51:33 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 12:23:49 PM
I also think Bonner and Harte etc would rather moan and whinge about the rules, get them thrown out now instead of actually sitting down and seeing how they would make them work for their team. Of all teams I think Donegal could do really well if they pushed up hard on the opposition.

Are the managers not allowed to voice their opinion on the rules the same as everyone else? If they think they are sh!te, surely they are entitled to say that. Doesn't mean they have to be listened to but I wouldn't expect them to lie about what they thought of them either.

They are I suppose but would it not be nice to hear them say "I dont think they will work but I will work with them and lets see how it pans out" Instead we have them lining up to moan after 1 or 2 games having made no attempt in most cases to innovate within those rules.

The handpass rule is a brain dead experiment that obviously wouldn't pass the simplest examination as a prospective improvement on the aesthetics of the game. People have said that from the outset and are not likely to change their mind seeing it in all it's practical glory. Managers are interviewed regularly and reporters ask them direct questions - should they tell lies to not hurt the feelings of the amadans that came up with it?

Itchy

Quote from: DuffleKing on January 07, 2019, 01:46:58 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 12:17:26 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 07, 2019, 10:46:54 AM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

What is it about the experimental rules that you think make it advantageous to "push up" (Pep style)? If your answer is that a 4th handpass in a row being a foul will put players under pressure* you are even further discredited in this discussion (if that's possible).
If teams press up into their forward line to win the ball back (which is not a new concept) they are leaving man on man scenarios in their own half of the field and crowding their own attacking space.
* If you think teams will be under pressure because of the handpass restriction you obviously haven't been to any games yet - they just turn and kick it back to the keeper then start again.

1st bold - I've already answered this question
2nd bold - Exactly.

Glad to have helped you understand.

BennyCake

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on January 07, 2019, 11:55:54 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on January 07, 2019, 11:36:26 AM
Possession football is boring. Ball retention, no risk strategies, sideways/backwards football are boring the shite out of us all. More kicking into forwards is needed. More skilful forwards is needed. Players won't kick ball to forwards as there's no room. What we need is more room.

The solution, as I've said many times = less players.

It's a no brainer.
I agree with you there, it just needs addressed the right way.
My big reservation about reducing team size is that the negative affect it would have in participation, particularly at youth level.

For me, you have to consider why so many managers bring extra defenders back, and the reason is that a 1v1 battle has become next to impossible to win for a defender.
black/yellow/red cards are now so easy to come by, that the defenders also take a now risk strategy when it comes to making a tackle or trying to win the ball. We then have players getting away regularly with 7/8 )( and sometimes more) steps, that making a clean challenge becomes very very difficult.
By gradually leaning the rules towards the forwards over the last number of years in an attempt to promote attacking high scoring football, what we have done is the complete opposite.
Managers now feel like they cant depend on a man marker, so bring additional men back, leading to the type of game we now see.

Yes but unless we give players more space to thrive, particularly the skilful forwards/playmakers, they'll be dropping out anyway. They'll go to a sport where their skills/playmaking is able to flourish. Not only that, but they'll go to a sport where they're getting more enjoyment.

BennyCake

Asking managers about rule changes... I remember harte's column where all rules that would have a detrimental affect on how his team played were poo-pooed weekly in the Irish news. Managers are only out for themselves, obviously. I wouldn't ask any of them.

JoG2

Quote from: BennyCake on January 07, 2019, 02:24:56 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on January 07, 2019, 11:55:54 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on January 07, 2019, 11:36:26 AM
Possession football is boring. Ball retention, no risk strategies, sideways/backwards football are boring the shite out of us all. More kicking into forwards is needed. More skilful forwards is needed. Players won't kick ball to forwards as there's no room. What we need is more room.

The solution, as I've said many times = less players.

It's a no brainer.
I agree with you there, it just needs addressed the right way.
My big reservation about reducing team size is that the negative affect it would have in participation, particularly at youth level.

For me, you have to consider why so many managers bring extra defenders back, and the reason is that a 1v1 battle has become next to impossible to win for a defender.
black/yellow/red cards are now so easy to come by, that the defenders also take a now risk strategy when it comes to making a tackle or trying to win the ball. We then have players getting away regularly with 7/8 )( and sometimes more) steps, that making a clean challenge becomes very very difficult.
By gradually leaning the rules towards the forwards over the last number of years in an attempt to promote attacking high scoring football, what we have done is the complete opposite.
Managers now feel like they cant depend on a man marker, so bring additional men back, leading to the type of game we now see.

Yes but unless we give players more space to thrive, particularly the skilful forwards/playmakers, they'll be dropping out anyway. They'll go to a sport where their skills/playmaking is able to flourish. Not only that, but they'll go to a sport where they're getting more enjoyment.

The majority of players are dropping out due to the commitment levels required these days, even in junior. Don't think I've met a man who's left the sport due to swarmed defences. And for what it's worth, I'd be an advocate of the 13 aside game (trialled of course)

JP

Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 02:11:59 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 07, 2019, 01:46:58 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 12:17:26 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 07, 2019, 10:46:54 AM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

What is it about the experimental rules that you think make it advantageous to "push up" (Pep style)? If your answer is that a 4th handpass in a row being a foul will put players under pressure* you are even further discredited in this discussion (if that's possible).
If teams press up into their forward line to win the ball back (which is not a new concept) they are leaving man on man scenarios in their own half of the field and crowding their own attacking space.
* If you think teams will be under pressure because of the handpass restriction you obviously haven't been to any games yet - they just turn and kick it back to the keeper then start again.

1st bold - I've already answered this question
2nd bold - Exactly.

Glad to have helped you understand.

He was explaining why we won't see teams push up. They are crowding their own attacking space making it difficult for them to score while also leaving their defenders vulnerable in one on one situations. A team pushing up would have to work harder for their scores compared to the counter attacking team.

The rule promotes conversative play from both teams.

blewuporstuffed

Quote from: JoG2 on January 07, 2019, 02:31:44 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on January 07, 2019, 02:24:56 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on January 07, 2019, 11:55:54 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on January 07, 2019, 11:36:26 AM
Possession football is boring. Ball retention, no risk strategies, sideways/backwards football are boring the shite out of us all. More kicking into forwards is needed. More skilful forwards is needed. Players won't kick ball to forwards as there's no room. What we need is more room.

The solution, as I've said many times = less players.

It's a no brainer.
I agree with you there, it just needs addressed the right way.
My big reservation about reducing team size is that the negative affect it would have in participation, particularly at youth level.

For me, you have to consider why so many managers bring extra defenders back, and the reason is that a 1v1 battle has become next to impossible to win for a defender.
black/yellow/red cards are now so easy to come by, that the defenders also take a now risk strategy when it comes to making a tackle or trying to win the ball. We then have players getting away regularly with 7/8 )( and sometimes more) steps, that making a clean challenge becomes very very difficult.
By gradually leaning the rules towards the forwards over the last number of years in an attempt to promote attacking high scoring football, what we have done is the complete opposite.
Managers now feel like they cant depend on a man marker, so bring additional men back, leading to the type of game we now see.

Yes but unless we give players more space to thrive, particularly the skilful forwards/playmakers, they'll be dropping out anyway. They'll go to a sport where their skills/playmaking is able to flourish. Not only that, but they'll go to a sport where they're getting more enjoyment.

The majority of players are dropping out due to the commitment levels required these days, even in junior. Don't think I've met a man who's left the sport due to swarmed defences. And for what it's worth, I'd be an advocate of the 13 aside game (trialled of course)
I'm certainly not against trailing it, and it may actually help with clubs fielding teams at underage/ reserve level where they struggle for numbers.
I'm not convinced its the silver bullet for all the games ills, but its a lot better proposal than restricting the fecking hand pass and most of the other nonsense proposed.
I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either

outinfront

What team sports aren't about ball retention?  I can't think of a game that I have played from primary school upwards where the focus hasn't been on keeping the ball away from the opposition.  Maybe dodgeball is the exception! Teams in all sports drop back as a unit to defend and press forward having turned ball over. Barcelona, Man City and the likes pass backwards/sidewards/forwards and strike when the time is right!  They also play out from the back on most occasions.  They aren't boring imo. I know it's a different sport but the goal is ultimately the same.  Win by scoring more (and conceding less).

There is so much tinkering with the rules and lots of it doesn't work.

I like the sin bin ideas for black cards.
I'm not opposed to this idea of not passing back into your own half (basketball style)
Offensive marks I'm not sure on
Hand pass rule is a load of crap.

Just my thoughts.
If you can dodge a wrench...

DuffleKing

Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 02:11:59 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 07, 2019, 01:46:58 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 12:17:26 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 07, 2019, 10:46:54 AM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

What is it about the experimental rules that you think make it advantageous to "push up" (Pep style)? If your answer is that a 4th handpass in a row being a foul will put players under pressure* you are even further discredited in this discussion (if that's possible).
If teams press up into their forward line to win the ball back (which is not a new concept) they are leaving man on man scenarios in their own half of the field and crowding their own attacking space.
* If you think teams will be under pressure because of the handpass restriction you obviously haven't been to any games yet - they just turn and kick it back to the keeper then start again.

1st bold - I've already answered this question
2nd bold - Exactly.

Glad to have helped you understand.

;D

Itchy

Quote from: JP on January 07, 2019, 02:36:19 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 02:11:59 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 07, 2019, 01:46:58 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 12:17:26 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 07, 2019, 10:46:54 AM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

What is it about the experimental rules that you think make it advantageous to "push up" (Pep style)? If your answer is that a 4th handpass in a row being a foul will put players under pressure* you are even further discredited in this discussion (if that's possible).
If teams press up into their forward line to win the ball back (which is not a new concept) they are leaving man on man scenarios in their own half of the field and crowding their own attacking space.
* If you think teams will be under pressure because of the handpass restriction you obviously haven't been to any games yet - they just turn and kick it back to the keeper then start again.

1st bold - I've already answered this question
2nd bold - Exactly.

Glad to have helped you understand.

He was explaining why we won't see teams push up. They are crowding their own attacking space making it difficult for them to score while also leaving their defenders vulnerable in one on one situations. A team pushing up would have to work harder for their scores compared to the counter attacking team.

The rule promotes conversative play from both teams.

I think after 2 McKenna cup games it is hard to say whether the rule would entice teams to push up. Its about risk vrs reward, and whether you believe putting the kick into the handpass mix will reduce your risk of pressing higher. My guess is that it will. I see Cavan are trying to push up anyway. I think if the rules are kept for league then more teams will go that road. Most teams right now are only getting going so have not probably spent a lot of time on deciding how they will play. Time will tell.

LeoMc

Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 02:11:59 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 07, 2019, 01:46:58 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 12:17:26 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 07, 2019, 10:46:54 AM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

What is it about the experimental rules that you think make it advantageous to "push up" (Pep style)? If your answer is that a 4th handpass in a row being a foul will put players under pressure* you are even further discredited in this discussion (if that's possible).
If teams press up into their forward line to win the ball back (which is not a new concept) they are leaving man on man scenarios in their own half of the field and crowding their own attacking space.
* If you think teams will be under pressure because of the handpass restriction you obviously haven't been to any games yet - they just turn and kick it back to the keeper then start again.

1st bold - I've already answered this question
2nd bold - Exactly.

Glad to have helped you understand.

So you think teams will push up to leave their own defence vulnerable?

Itchy

Quote from: LeoMc on January 07, 2019, 04:35:04 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 02:11:59 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 07, 2019, 01:46:58 PM
Quote from: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 12:17:26 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on January 07, 2019, 10:46:54 AM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

What is it about the experimental rules that you think make it advantageous to "push up" (Pep style)? If your answer is that a 4th handpass in a row being a foul will put players under pressure* you are even further discredited in this discussion (if that's possible).
If teams press up into their forward line to win the ball back (which is not a new concept) they are leaving man on man scenarios in their own half of the field and crowding their own attacking space.
* If you think teams will be under pressure because of the handpass restriction you obviously haven't been to any games yet - they just turn and kick it back to the keeper then start again.

1st bold - I've already answered this question
2nd bold - Exactly.

Glad to have helped you understand.

So you think teams will push up to leave their own defence vulnerable?

Yes, you leave your defense more vulnerable but it is risk versus reward, if you are successful you might score a lot too and the game might be better to watch.

mrdeeds

47 goals last year in first two rounds of McKenna cup. 24 this year and that includes 6 for Armagh v Marys.

trailer

I haven't read a lot the last few pages but anted to pop in and say that anyone; A) Advocating for these rule changes, or B) Advocating for any other rule changes, are the Enemy of GAA, Gaelic Football and Irish past times in general. They are the anti christ.