The Many Faces of US Politics...

[heganboy]

Terrible would describe the experience of my self employed clients and friends whose premiums have skyrocketed from $17k per year to $28k per year with a $6k deductible tacked on for good measure....you know....like the people who Bill Clinton described as "humping it 60 hours a week whose premiums have doubled and their coverage cut in half...its the craziest thing in the world"

What you and all the progressives seem to be missing or ignoring is that Obamacare was collapsing in on top of itself

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2016/08/16/is-it-time-to-acknowledge-that-obamacare-is-collapsing/amp/

Whitey,
I have a lot of experience with this, my own family healthcare premiums doubled from 18k to 36k annually, and add in a a 10k deductible "for good measure" when i was self employed. That includes coverage of a highly medical dependent child with a "pre-existing condition".

A significantly higher coverage for my family is now provided by my employer for less than 8k per annum.

You can call it terrible, (or in my words a f**king disgrace) but my view of terrible is a possibility of significant amount of people in the US completely losing their coverage, and those that do pay for coverage having it denied on the whim of an insurance policy that it is very unlikely that they fully understand when they buy it. The ACA brought significantly improved economics to the entire United States, but the lobbyists will not tolerate the changes that are required to improve the heath care system in the US.

Do you think the problem is the bill that supports healthcare for all, or the structure that allows that differential to occur?

The new bill that has passed the house has a fair chance of being a huge tax credit for the richest americans at the expense of the poorest. Now both sides will spin the shite out of this, but I think that the Republicans will pay a huge price for this in the next elections.

It is the myth perpetuated by the self employed that the ACA screws them, the fact is no-one is lobbying for the self employed and as a result they bear the brunt of the tax law. When they get successful, they contribute to politicians and get looked after but by that point they are a corporate entity and they don't look back...

[whitey]

The whole thing is a fvckin disgrace.....whether its Obamacare or Trumpcare. The healthcare system here is a complete shambles.  I have always worked for big companies, so I have never had to pay the huge premiums you mention for healthcare, but all my clients are self employed and theyre getting completely fvcked under Obamacare.

Everyone in the country should have some basic health insurance, but Obama shifted the burden of paying for it onto people who are already squeezed to breaking point. He was elected to repeal it and thats what he did...

[seafoid]

The whole thing is a fvckin disgrace.....whether its Obamacare or Trumpcare. The healthcare system here is a complete shambles.  I have always worked for big companies, so I have never had to pay the huge premiums you mention for healthcare, but all my clients are self employed and theyre getting completely fvcked under Obamacare.

Everyone in the country should have some basic health insurance, but Obama shifted the burden of paying for it onto people who are already squeezed to breaking point. He was elected to repeal it and thats what he did...

Whitey , Trump.promised to fix healthcare. He promised to take on the lobbies.
Louisiana voted Trump and 30% of people have pre existing conditions. This is the real wold. When people start dying Hannity won't be able to.bring them back to life.  Alex Jones won't be able to blame liberals.   

  The base rejected all the Koch candidates because Trump listened to them. . But it is still.the rent seekers versus everybody else.

[seafoid]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/05/05/health-care-score-republicans-1-americans-0-andy-slavitt-column/101326472/

[whitey]

The whole thing is a fvckin disgrace.....whether its Obamacare or Trumpcare. The healthcare system here is a complete shambles.  I have always worked for big companies, so I have never had to pay the huge premiums you mention for healthcare, but all my clients are self employed and theyre getting completely fvcked under Obamacare.

Everyone in the country should have some basic health insurance, but Obama shifted the burden of paying for it onto people who are already squeezed to breaking point. He was elected to repeal it and thats what he did...

Whitey , Trump.promised to fix healthcare. He promised to take on the lobbies.
Louisiana voted Trump and 30% of people have pre existing conditions. This is the real wold. When people start dying Hannity won't be able to.bring them back to life.  Alex Jones won't be able to blame liberals.   

  The base rejected all the Koch candidates because Trump listened to them. . But it is still.the rent seekers versus everybody else.

It's all politics......was Obamacare as great as Democrats claimed it was? Absolutely not. There were serious flaws in the design, implementation and pricing of Obamacare

On the other hand was Obamacare as big a disaster as Republicans claimed it was? Absolutely not!  Some parts of the law worked great and were actually quite popular across the political divide.

It's exactly the same with this new plan....just the shoe is on the other foot.....the plan will be nowhere near as bad as Democrats claim, nor will it be as great as the Republicans claim

[seafoid]

The whole thing is a fvckin disgrace.....whether its Obamacare or Trumpcare. The healthcare system here is a complete shambles.  I have always worked for big companies, so I have never had to pay the huge premiums you mention for healthcare, but all my clients are self employed and theyre getting completely fvcked under Obamacare.

Everyone in the country should have some basic health insurance, but Obama shifted the burden of paying for it onto people who are already squeezed to breaking point. He was elected to repeal it and thats what he did...

Whitey , Trump.promised to fix healthcare. He promised to take on the lobbies.
Louisiana voted Trump and 30% of people have pre existing conditions. This is the real wold. When people start dying Hannity won't be able to.bring them back to life.  Alex Jones won't be able to blame liberals.   

  The base rejected all the Koch candidates because Trump listened to them. . But it is still.the rent seekers versus everybody else.

It's all politics......was Obamacare as great as Democrats claimed it was? Absolutely not. There were serious flaws in the design, implementation and pricing of Obamacare

On the other hand was Obamacare as big a disaster as Republicans claimed it was? Absolutely not!  Some parts of the law worked great and were actually quite popular across the political divide.

It's exactly the same with this new plan....just the shoe is on the other foot.....the plan will be nowhere near as bad as Democrats claim, nor will it be as great as the Republicans claim

Single payer is the only way forward

The collective principle asserts that... no society can legitimately call itself civilised if a sick person is denied medical aid because of lack of means. — Aneurin Bevan, In Place of Fear, p. 100

I think a lot of people will have to die needlessly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmWWoMcGmo0

before healthcare is reformed coherently. Obamacare was better than Swampcare but it was no solution. 



http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2009/07/02/the-health-reform-we-need-are-not-getting/
As bad as they already are, things will have to get still worse before major reform becomes politically possible. The legislation likely to emerge from this Congress will not control—and will probably even exacerbate—the inflation of costs. But sometime in the not-too- distant future, health expenditures will become intolerable and fundamental change will at last be accepted as the only way to avoid disaster. When that time arrives, the opportunity to enact real health reform will finally be at hand.
—June 3, 2009

[J70]

Whitey,
Let's go ahead and call bull shit right now

No one has read the bill and had time to do an assessment of the impact of the bill. This is an absolute disgrace that a bill so meaningful to the poor of the US has been passed sight unseen on order for Republicans to fulfil the repeal obamacare election promises.

The language in there about preexisting conditions and states rights are abysmal. The "religious freedom" aspect is a disgrace to human rights standards​ anywhere and the parcelled tax rebates for the 0.01% are shameful.

Seth Myers rip on Paul Ryan vs Paul Ryan is a humorous take on the hypocrisy of the whole thing, but let's be clear, no vote on that bill should ever have happened.

Careful what you wish for...

I would prefer them to get it right rather than rush it through.....that being said.....the bill its replacing has been an absolute abomination....it's not like that hey are replacing a great bill with a terrible bill....it's more like they're replacing a terrible bill with a less terrible bill

And I have to laugh at the Dems with their hair on fire about no one reading the bill....what was it Nancy Pelosi said about Obamacare again?

What DID she say?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/pelosi-defends-her-infamous-health-care-remark/2012/06/20/gJQAqch6qV_blog.html?utm_term=.477863cdc9d4

In what way is the new bill "less terrible"?

Who is it "less terrible" for?

[J70]

The whole thing is a fvckin disgrace.....whether its Obamacare or Trumpcare. The healthcare system here is a complete shambles.  I have always worked for big companies, so I have never had to pay the huge premiums you mention for healthcare, but all my clients are self employed and theyre getting completely fvcked under Obamacare.

Everyone in the country should have some basic health insurance, but Obama shifted the burden of paying for it onto people who are already squeezed to breaking point. He was elected to repeal it and thats what he did...

Whitey , Trump.promised to fix healthcare. He promised to take on the lobbies.
Louisiana voted Trump and 30% of people have pre existing conditions. This is the real wold. When people start dying Hannity won't be able to.bring them back to life.  Alex Jones won't be able to blame liberals.   

  The base rejected all the Koch candidates because Trump listened to them. . But it is still.the rent seekers versus everybody else.

It's all politics......was Obamacare as great as Democrats claimed it was? Absolutely not. There were serious flaws in the design, implementation and pricing of Obamacare

On the other hand was Obamacare as big a disaster as Republicans claimed it was? Absolutely not!  Some parts of the law worked great and were actually quite popular across the political divide.

It's exactly the same with this new plan....just the shoe is on the other foot.....the plan will be nowhere near as bad as Democrats claim, nor will it be as great as the Republicans claim

I guess it all depends on your perspective. If you are poor or have pre-existing conditions or need a lot of medical or surgical treatment, tough shit. If you're young and healthy or rich...

[whitey]

The whole thing is a fvckin disgrace.....whether its Obamacare or Trumpcare. The healthcare system here is a complete shambles.  I have always worked for big companies, so I have never had to pay the huge premiums you mention for healthcare, but all my clients are self employed and theyre getting completely fvcked under Obamacare.

Everyone in the country should have some basic health insurance, but Obama shifted the burden of paying for it onto people who are already squeezed to breaking point. He was elected to repeal it and thats what he did...

Whitey , Trump.promised to fix healthcare. He promised to take on the lobbies.
Louisiana voted Trump and 30% of people have pre existing conditions. This is the real wold. When people start dying Hannity won't be able to.bring them back to life.  Alex Jones won't be able to blame liberals.   

  The base rejected all the Koch candidates because Trump listened to them. . But it is still.the rent seekers versus everybody else.

It's all politics......was Obamacare as great as Democrats claimed it was? Absolutely not. There were serious flaws in the design, implementation and pricing of Obamacare

On the other hand was Obamacare as big a disaster as Republicans claimed it was? Absolutely not!  Some parts of the law worked great and were actually quite popular across the political divide.

It's exactly the same with this new plan....just the shoe is on the other foot.....the plan will be nowhere near as bad as Democrats claim, nor will it be as great as the Republicans claim

I guess it all depends on your perspective. If you are poor or have pre-existing conditions or need a lot of medical or surgical treatment, tough shit. If you're young and healthy or rich...

Fair enough....but how many of those people would have been covered by Medicaid pre Obamacare?

I know plenty of People with no health insurance who have gotten the best of care no questions asked

https://www.the42.ie/mark-mcgoverns-debt-mounting-daily-in-san-francisco-201583-Aug2011/%3Famp%3D1

You are just running with same old lazy generalizations that just aren't true in many real life situations

[omochain]

The whole thing is a fvckin disgrace.....whether its Obamacare or Trumpcare. The healthcare system here is a complete shambles.  I have always worked for big companies, so I have never had to pay the huge premiums you mention for healthcare, but all my clients are self employed and theyre getting completely fvcked under Obamacare.

Everyone in the country should have some basic health insurance, but Obama shifted the burden of paying for it onto people who are already squeezed to breaking point. He was elected to repeal it and thats what he did...

Whitey , Trump.promised to fix healthcare. He promised to take on the lobbies.
Louisiana voted Trump and 30% of people have pre existing conditions. This is the real wold. When people start dying Hannity won't be able to.bring them back to life.  Alex Jones won't be able to blame liberals.   

  The base rejected all the Koch candidates because Trump listened to them. . But it is still.the rent seekers versus everybody else.

It's all politics......was Obamacare as great as Democrats claimed it was? Absolutely not. There were serious flaws in the design, implementation and pricing of Obamacare

On the other hand was Obamacare as big a disaster as Republicans claimed it was? Absolutely not!  Some parts of the law worked great and were actually quite popular across the political divide.

It's exactly the same with this new plan....just the shoe is on the other foot.....the plan will be nowhere near as bad as Democrats claim, nor will it be as great as the Republicans claim

I guess it all depends on your perspective. If you are poor or have pre-existing conditions or need a lot of medical or surgical treatment, tough shit. If you're young and healthy or rich...

Fair enough....but how many of those people would have been covered by Medicaid pre Obamacare?

I know plenty of People with no health insurance who have gotten the best of care no questions asked

https://www.the42.ie/mark-mcgoverns-debt-mounting-daily-in-san-francisco-201583-Aug2011/%3Famp%3D1

You are just running with same old lazy generalizations that just aren't true in many real life situations

Whitey you live by the anecdote you die by the anecdote.

[J70]

The whole thing is a fvckin disgrace.....whether its Obamacare or Trumpcare. The healthcare system here is a complete shambles.  I have always worked for big companies, so I have never had to pay the huge premiums you mention for healthcare, but all my clients are self employed and theyre getting completely fvcked under Obamacare.

Everyone in the country should have some basic health insurance, but Obama shifted the burden of paying for it onto people who are already squeezed to breaking point. He was elected to repeal it and thats what he did...

Whitey , Trump.promised to fix healthcare. He promised to take on the lobbies.
Louisiana voted Trump and 30% of people have pre existing conditions. This is the real wold. When people start dying Hannity won't be able to.bring them back to life.  Alex Jones won't be able to blame liberals.   

  The base rejected all the Koch candidates because Trump listened to them. . But it is still.the rent seekers versus everybody else.

It's all politics......was Obamacare as great as Democrats claimed it was? Absolutely not. There were serious flaws in the design, implementation and pricing of Obamacare

On the other hand was Obamacare as big a disaster as Republicans claimed it was? Absolutely not!  Some parts of the law worked great and were actually quite popular across the political divide.

It's exactly the same with this new plan....just the shoe is on the other foot.....the plan will be nowhere near as bad as Democrats claim, nor will it be as great as the Republicans claim

I guess it all depends on your perspective. If you are poor or have pre-existing conditions or need a lot of medical or surgical treatment, tough shit. If you're young and healthy or rich...

Fair enough....but how many of those people would have been covered by Medicaid pre Obamacare?

I know plenty of People with no health insurance who have gotten the best of care no questions asked

https://www.the42.ie/mark-mcgoverns-debt-mounting-daily-in-san-francisco-201583-Aug2011/%3Famp%3D1

You are just running with same old lazy generalizations that just aren't true in many real life situations

How does McGovern's case support your perspective? Are you saying its all right to go without insurance because in an absolute emergency, the hospital will have to treat you first and try to recover the costs later? Do you think they're just going to swallow those costs? I lived with a lad who got $30K worth of treatment after a road accident and ending up skipping the country to go back home, permanently, because he couldn't pay them. Is that a sustainable system. BTW, I never said they wouldn't get emergency care.

But, assuming I am full of shit, tell us why the GOP wants to strip the protections for pre-existing conditions and minimum standards for policies and reintroduce caps on pay-outs and repeal subsidies and so forth, all while repealing the Obamacare taxes on the wealthy, if NOT to shift the burden back on to the less well off, both medically and financially?

[whitey]

The whole thing is a fvckin disgrace.....whether its Obamacare or Trumpcare. The healthcare system here is a complete shambles.  I have always worked for big companies, so I have never had to pay the huge premiums you mention for healthcare, but all my clients are self employed and theyre getting completely fvcked under Obamacare.

Everyone in the country should have some basic health insurance, but Obama shifted the burden of paying for it onto people who are already squeezed to breaking point. He was elected to repeal it and thats what he did...

Whitey , Trump.promised to fix healthcare. He promised to take on the lobbies.
Louisiana voted Trump and 30% of people have pre existing conditions. This is the real wold. When people start dying Hannity won't be able to.bring them back to life.  Alex Jones won't be able to blame liberals.   

  The base rejected all the Koch candidates because Trump listened to them. . But it is still.the rent seekers versus everybody else.

It's all politics......was Obamacare as great as Democrats claimed it was? Absolutely not. There were serious flaws in the design, implementation and pricing of Obamacare

On the other hand was Obamacare as big a disaster as Republicans claimed it was? Absolutely not!  Some parts of the law worked great and were actually quite popular across the political divide.

It's exactly the same with this new plan....just the shoe is on the other foot.....the plan will be nowhere near as bad as Democrats claim, nor will it be as great as the Republicans claim

I guess it all depends on your perspective. If you are poor or have pre-existing conditions or need a lot of medical or surgical treatment, tough shit. If you're young and healthy or rich...

Fair enough....but how many of those people would have been covered by Medicaid pre Obamacare?

I know plenty of People with no health insurance who have gotten the best of care no questions asked

https://www.the42.ie/mark-mcgoverns-debt-mounting-daily-in-san-francisco-201583-Aug2011/%3Famp%3D1

You are just running with same old lazy generalizations that just aren't true in many real life situations

Whitey you live by the anecdote you die by the anecdote.

Well I once lived with lads who were undocumented and at various points they had to visit the ER for a vAriety of ailments.....none of them paid a penny.  I shared the one about the lad from Fermanagh because it's one most people on here would be familiar with (and listening to J70 you'd think that people without insurance were getting turned away at the door of the hospital, which simply is untrue)

[whitey]

The whole thing is a fvckin disgrace.....whether its Obamacare or Trumpcare. The healthcare system here is a complete shambles.  I have always worked for big companies, so I have never had to pay the huge premiums you mention for healthcare, but all my clients are self employed and theyre getting completely fvcked under Obamacare.

Everyone in the country should have some basic health insurance, but Obama shifted the burden of paying for it onto people who are already squeezed to breaking point. He was elected to repeal it and thats what he did...

Whitey , Trump.promised to fix healthcare. He promised to take on the lobbies.
Louisiana voted Trump and 30% of people have pre existing conditions. This is the real wold. When people start dying Hannity won't be able to.bring them back to life.  Alex Jones won't be able to blame liberals.   

  The base rejected all the Koch candidates because Trump listened to them. . But it is still.the rent seekers versus everybody else.

It's all politics......was Obamacare as great as Democrats claimed it was? Absolutely not. There were serious flaws in the design, implementation and pricing of Obamacare

On the other hand was Obamacare as big a disaster as Republicans claimed it was? Absolutely not!  Some parts of the law worked great and were actually quite popular across the political divide.

It's exactly the same with this new plan....just the shoe is on the other foot.....the plan will be nowhere near as bad as Democrats claim, nor will it be as great as the Republicans claim

I guess it all depends on your perspective. If you are poor or have pre-existing conditions or need a lot of medical or surgical treatment, tough shit. If you're young and healthy or rich...

Fair enough....but how many of those people would have been covered by Medicaid pre Obamacare?

I know plenty of People with no health insurance who have gotten the best of care no questions asked

https://www.the42.ie/mark-mcgoverns-debt-mounting-daily-in-san-francisco-201583-Aug2011/%3Famp%3D1

You are just running with same old lazy generalizations that just aren't true in many real life situations

How does McGovern's case support your perspective? Are you saying its all right to go without insurance because in an absolute emergency, the hospital will have to treat you first and try to recover the costs later? Do you think they're just going to swallow those costs? I lived with a lad who got $30K worth of treatment after a road accident and ending up skipping the country to go back home, permanently, because he couldn't pay them. Is that a sustainable system. BTW, I never said they wouldn't get emergency care.

But, assuming I am full of shit, tell us why the GOP wants to strip the protections for pre-existing conditions and minimum standards for policies and reintroduce caps on pay-outs and repeal subsidies and so forth, all while repealing the Obamacare taxes on the wealthy, if NOT to shift the burden back on to the less well off, both medically and financially?

What you are/were implying is that Pre Obamacare, those without insurance could not get access to healthcare.....that is simply untrue. The McGovern case is just an example I shared because most people here would be familiar with the story.  That lad got the best care in the world with no questions asked with regard to insurance or legal status.  (And I haven't heard any stories about his family getting chased for the money)

From what I've read, very few people if any will lose their insurance under the new plan.  From what you've read tens of millions will lose their insurance....I'm assuming best case scenario because I'm a conservative, you're assuming the worst case scenario because you're a progressive.

Im sure the truth will be somewhere in between

[seafoid]

"From what I've read, very few people if any will lose their insurance under the new plan.  "

GOP people have been asked about pre existing conditions and keep on repeating an idea about  layers of protection. AND they got 8bn dollars extra.  It sounds like a lot. If you are gullible. But US healthcare costs around 1 in 5 dollars of everything spent in the US.

The whole point of the AHCA is to free up money for a tax cut for Scrooge McDuck. $800 bn

Obviously nobody will lose coverage because there is $8 bn and the GOP promised.

Healthcare is a life or death issue for the GOP now.

[stew]

"From what I've read, very few people if any will lose their insurance under the new plan.  "

GOP people have been asked about pre existing conditions and keep on repeating an idea about  layers of protection. AND they got 8bn dollars extra.  It sounds like a lot. If you are gullible. But US healthcare costs around 1 in 5 dollars of everything spent in the US.

The whole point of the AHCA is to free up money for a tax cut for Scrooge McDuck. $800 bn

Obviously nobody will lose coverage because there is $8 bn and the GOP promised.

Healthcare is a life or death issue for the GOP now.

If Trump fucks over the people regarding healthcare I hope he and the GOP lose their collective asses in the upcoming election seasons, I have serious reservations about their commitment to this biggest of issues.

That America is in the awful shape it is in health care wise is testament to the ineptitude and apathy of both parties, Obama aside that is, he got it wrong but at least he tried.