'Splitting into two groups of 16 is inevitable for football'

[Syferus]

What would those "equal brackets" be?
Will they be graded as in the NFL?
Will 2 teams from each get to AI Qtr Finals?

4 groups of 8, each group having a 1/4 final, semi final and final, with the winner going to the semis
Grade them, top 4 rated teams go in as 1 seeds in each group and so on. This would result in provincials and league games now being important and bring in championship type pressure to the games.

In effect the semi in each group would be an All Ireland 1/4 final.

This creates a simple and clear draw. No advantages given or disadvantages given to when you are knocked out of the championship.

As I say, it works for NA colleges and march madness is a fantastic tournament

There isn't a massive population or money disparity between #1 and #7 in NCAA football or basketball.

[lenny]

There's been so much discussion on this topic, both on this board and elsewhere, that I think a few things can be almost agreed upon:

-If we were starting from scratch, we wouldn't devise a system based on the provincials.
-A graded system, whatever it may be, would seem like a sensible option.
-Any system needs to be included in a calendar that meets the needs of the clubs and club players.

The problem, as I see it, is culture. Antrim are used to being allowed to attempt to win the Ulster Championship and the Sam Maguire. Any move to take either away is likely be resisted by all GAA people in the county; players and supporters in particular. The result is lack of interest in the competition entered, players not committing and fans not attending.

The GPA members confirmed their opposition to such a move only last year. Would board members be happy for a tiered-system to be introduced if it meant their county not entering the race for Sam?

The question is, how do you change this general view? If the footballers of the likes of Leitrim, Carlow, Wicklow and Waterford prefer the current system to the tiered one, I think we have a long way to go in getting the changes that are being suggested by many in the media.

Nobody has offered the players a tiered system like they have at club level so we don't know their views. People talk about the tommy murphy not being a success but that was a competition for division 4 teams knocked out of the championship. Therefore it wasn't seen as a championship competition because you only got into it when you were knocked out of the main championship. ie it was a competition for drop outs. In a tiered system you have a senior championship, an intermediate championship and a junior championship. Teams have a chance of winning an all Ireland championship and an all Ireland medal.

[Syferus]

There's been so much discussion on this topic, both on this board and elsewhere, that I think a few things can be almost agreed upon:

-If we were starting from scratch, we wouldn't devise a system based on the provincials.
-A graded system, whatever it may be, would seem like a sensible option.
-Any system needs to be included in a calendar that meets the needs of the clubs and club players.

The problem, as I see it, is culture. Antrim are used to being allowed to attempt to win the Ulster Championship and the Sam Maguire. Any move to take either away is likely be resisted by all GAA people in the county; players and supporters in particular. The result is lack of interest in the competition entered, players not committing and fans not attending.

The GPA members confirmed their opposition to such a move only last year. Would board members be happy for a tiered-system to be introduced if it meant their county not entering the race for Sam?

The question is, how do you change this general view? If the footballers of the likes of Leitrim, Carlow, Wicklow and Waterford prefer the current system to the tiered one, I think we have a long way to go in getting the changes that are being suggested by many in the media.

Nobody has offered the players a tiered system like they have at club level so we don't know their views. People talk about the tommy murphy not being a success but that was a competition for division 4 teams knocked out of the championship. Therefore it wasn't seen as a championship competition because you only got into it when you were knocked out of the main championship. ie it was a competition for drop outs. In a tiered system you have a senior championship, an intermediate championship and a junior championship. Teams have a chance of winning an all Ireland championship and an all Ireland medal.

Players at Junior IC can do that already.. that people seem to have forgotten that a Junior level already exists shows how much people really care about the lower tiers.

[Kickham csc]

What would those "equal brackets" be?
Will they be graded as in the NFL?
Will 2 teams from each get to AI Qtr Finals?

4 groups of 8, each group having a 1/4 final, semi final and final, with the winner going to the semis
Grade them, top 4 rated teams go in as 1 seeds in each group and so on. This would result in provincials and league games now being important and bring in championship type pressure to the games.

In effect the semi in each group would be an All Ireland 1/4 final.

This creates a simple and clear draw. No advantages given or disadvantages given to when you are knocked out of the championship.

As I say, it works for NA colleges and march madness is a fantastic tournament

There isn't a massive population or money disparity between #1 and #7 in NCAA football or basketball.

There absolutely is in basketball. Kansas v UC Davis, Villanova v Mount St Mary, is David verses goliath. But they look at the spread and if they smaller college keeps the score tight then its viewed as a moral victory. But every year a 2 v 15 seed produces an upset. So the smaller colleges earn the right to play by winning their conference against like sized teams and then get to enjoy playing marque teams.

I think it would be a simple and effective solution. If you don't want to play a top ranked team, start winning league games!!!!

[AZOffaly]

Every year there's a 2 v 15 upset?

[Syferus]

What would those "equal brackets" be?
Will they be graded as in the NFL?
Will 2 teams from each get to AI Qtr Finals?

4 groups of 8, each group having a 1/4 final, semi final and final, with the winner going to the semis
Grade them, top 4 rated teams go in as 1 seeds in each group and so on. This would result in provincials and league games now being important and bring in championship type pressure to the games.

In effect the semi in each group would be an All Ireland 1/4 final.

This creates a simple and clear draw. No advantages given or disadvantages given to when you are knocked out of the championship.

As I say, it works for NA colleges and march madness is a fantastic tournament

There isn't a massive population or money disparity between #1 and #7 in NCAA football or basketball.

There absolutely is in basketball. Kansas v UC Davis, Villanova v Mount St Mary, is David verses goliath. But they look at the spread and if they smaller college keeps the score tight then its viewed as a moral victory. But every year a 2 v 15 seed produces an upset. So the smaller colleges earn the right to play by winning their conference against like sized teams and then get to enjoy playing marque teams.

I think it would be a simple and effective solution. If you don't want to play a top ranked team, start winning league games!!!!

I think no team lower than #8 has ever won the NCAA basketball tournament, once in '85. Indeed no one below #8 has ever made the championship game. No one below #11 has even reached the Final Four.

Also it should be noted that it is easier to assemble a competitive team when you only ever need five players on the court and not 22 in American football or 15 in Gaelic football, which is part of the reason smaller colleges have attracted big players in the past. In Gaelic football a good Roscommon team isn't going to be able to recruit Emlyn Mulligan or Jamie Clarke from one of the smaller counties to complete a team like those colleges can.

Further to that point, those colleges pump a massive amount of their manpower and budget into their teams as well because it is in most cases what they're known for and acts as a walking promotion of the college. Villanova ain't a threat to anyone in football but North and South Carolina are both big enough to be competitive in football and basketball.

[Kilkevan]

There's been so much discussion on this topic, both on this board and elsewhere, that I think a few things can be almost agreed upon:

-If we were starting from scratch, we wouldn't devise a system based on the provincials.
-A graded system, whatever it may be, would seem like a sensible option.
-Any system needs to be included in a calendar that meets the needs of the clubs and club players.

The problem, as I see it, is culture. Antrim are used to being allowed to attempt to win the Ulster Championship and the Sam Maguire. Any move to take either away is likely be resisted by all GAA people in the county; players and supporters in particular. The result is lack of interest in the competition entered, players not committing and fans not attending.

The GPA members confirmed their opposition to such a move only last year. Would board members be happy for a tiered-system to be introduced if it meant their county not entering the race for Sam?

The question is, how do you change this general view? If the footballers of the likes of Leitrim, Carlow, Wicklow and Waterford prefer the current system to the tiered one, I think we have a long way to go in getting the changes that are being suggested by many in the media.

Nobody has offered the players a tiered system like they have at club level so we don't know their views. People talk about the tommy murphy not being a success but that was a competition for division 4 teams knocked out of the championship. Therefore it wasn't seen as a championship competition because you only got into it when you were knocked out of the main championship. ie it was a competition for drop outs. In a tiered system you have a senior championship, an intermediate championship and a junior championship. Teams have a chance of winning an all Ireland championship and an all Ireland medal.

And a chance to play at Croke Park which is not to be sniffed at. They aren't without their problems but I think the Meagher, Rackard and Ring Cups have been generally successful in hurling and it's quite a major thing to win one of them. I would say for the very reason you cited that they are championships in their own right.

[Rossfan]

There's been so much discussion on this topic, both on this board and elsewhere, that I think a few things can be almost agreed upon:

-If we were starting from scratch, we wouldn't devise a system based on the provincials.
-A graded system, whatever it may be, would seem like a sensible option.
-Any system needs to be included in a calendar that meets the needs of the clubs and club players.

The problem, as I see it, is culture. Antrim are used to being allowed to attempt to win the Ulster Championship and the Sam Maguire. Any move to take either away is likely be resisted by all GAA people in the county; players and supporters in particular. The result is lack of interest in the competition entered, players not committing and fans not attending.

The GPA members confirmed their opposition to such a move only last year. Would board members be happy for a tiered-system to be introduced if it meant their county not entering the race for Sam?

The question is, how do you change this general view? If the footballers of the likes of Leitrim, Carlow, Wicklow and Waterford prefer the current system to the tiered one, I think we have a long way to go in getting the changes that are being suggested by many in the media.

Nobody has offered the players a tiered system like they have at club level so we don't know their views. People talk about the tommy murphy not being a success but that was a competition for division 4 teams knocked out of the championship. Therefore it wasn't seen as a championship competition because you only got into it when you were knocked out of the main championship. ie it was a competition for drop outs. In a tiered system you have a senior championship, an intermediate championship and a junior championship. Teams have a chance of winning an all Ireland championship and an all Ireland medal.

And gping up to the next grade plus relegation will keep the Senior and Inter teams honest.
We have 11 Counties who will in all likelihood never win an AI due to population reasons. Monaghan are the best of those the last few years. Offaly 198w and Ros 1980 were the last AI finalists of those 11.
6 more Counties are hurling first and highly unlikely to win a football AI. Tipp best if these at present.
Last AI Final appearances Tipp 1920(?).

[Kickham csc]

Every year there's a 2 v 15 upset?

There might have been 1 year where there wasn't, but yes and always a few scares. A bit like Waterford and Cork at the weekend or Antrim Donegal a cuple of years ago.

If you haven't experienced it, put Vegas and the first two days of March madness in your bucket list.  Absolute scream in the sports book

[Kickham csc]

Every year there's a 2 v 15 upset?

There might have been 1 year where there wasn't, but yes and always a few scares. A bit like Waterford and Cork at the weekend or Antrim Donegal a cuple of years ago.

If you haven't experienced it, put Vegas and the first two days of March madness in your bucket list.  Absolute scream in the sports book

Just did a fact check, and I was a bit loose with the facts...but a quick summary

16 v 1 - no upsets
15 v 2 - 8 upsets
14 v 3 - 21 upsets
13 v 4 - 26 upsets

but every year there is an upset. 

[AZOffaly]

Every year there's a 2 v 15 upset?

There might have been 1 year where there wasn't, but yes and always a few scares. A bit like Waterford and Cork at the weekend or Antrim Donegal a cuple of years ago.

If you haven't experienced it, put Vegas and the first two days of March madness in your bucket list.  Absolute scream in the sports book

I know March Madness very well. There's actually been 8 upsets of this nature EVER, since it became a 64 team field. Given that with the regions, there's 4 of these matchups every year, it actually works out at a 6% chance, or thereabouts.

There was one in 2016, one in 2013 2 in 2012 and 4 more since 1991.

Edit. I didn't see your second reply. So snap. I was just being pedantic, because I knew there was nothing like a 15v2 every year. 12 v 5, now there's one. My old reliable in the betting.

[Zulu]

I think some people are viewing this in the wrong way. The vast majority of players in every sport around the world happily play without a great chance of winning things. Most players simply want regular games against opponents they can compete against. If they get that they know they may win something but at least if they don't there is still merit in their season. We aren't giving that to our IC players which is why our format is inherently flawed.

Whatever the best format is, it isn't this one because it doesn't give players regular, structured games against teams of similar ability. If that changes then there will be merit in playing IC football irrespective of your teams ability.

[The Trap]

Zulu you are 100% correct......plus we have to remember this is an amateur game......no player can make a living out of it.......you can't transfer to a better team.......it's areal conundrum

[Syferus]

Zulu you are 100% correct......plus we have to remember this is an amateur game......no player can make a living out of it.......you can't transfer to a better team.......it's areal conundrum

Is it?

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/dublin-backroom-team-picture-98181

[The Trap]

That's a problem syferus.....some way more amateur than others......but most lads will not make a good living out of the gaa....even in Dublin.....