'Splitting into two groups of 16 is inevitable for football'

[Kilkevan]

Kilkenny man......how do you propose your footballers get better?? You mention Cork but surely on a hurling context only.........superpowers like cork and Meath are now in the also rans............Meath actually had more to celebrate in hurling last year! I can guarantee you now that the only counties who will get to the standard that Dublin are at now are Kerry, Mayo for another couple of years and then maybe Donegal and Tyrone could get close for a year or two, Monaghan as well.....and that is why they are putting their lives into it.......because they have even an outside chance..........Carlow had a great win over Wexford but it will prob do more long term harm than good when Dublin roll over the top of them in second gear and they realise just how far they are behind........if you were an Antrim or Fermanagh footballer last week or a Derry man today would you be thinking well that was worth it......the biggest surprise to me is that 10000 people turn up yesterday for a game that was so predictable........even when two good teams meet such as Tyrone v Donegal next it will make for horrific viewing....

There is no interest in football in Kilkenny. Probably never will be and outside of a very small group nobody cares how bad the footballers are. Trying to improve Kilkenny football is flogging a dead horse.

Cork have had a bad run of things in both hurling and football in recent years and can be considered also fans in that timr in hurling too. Every successful county goes through good and bad patches though and I would be very surprised if Cork don't get back in both in time.

[seafoid]

I think a three tier championship as per the club scene is the best option in the short term.......in the long term the only hope is that the top teams begin to ask themselves "what the hell are we putting in all of this effort for and putting the rest of our lives on hold for?"..... and hopefully they will come back to the pack.........if you were a young lad from Down Derry Armagh Antrim Fermanagh etc would you be willing to put your life on hold over the next few years just to try and close the gap? When Harte goes Tyrone will prob come back to the pack and prob the same in Monaghan post orourke.......when Donegal lose another few especially Murphy they will come back down too......then we might see a competitive ulster championship again anyway.........dunno what we can do with the dubs and Kerry though!!!!!

The let's hope Dublin stop spending millions and getting millions more in grants approach to bringing parity. Sadly that crazy sort of thinking probably is closer to the GAA's weak-willed approach that's unwilling to address the abatross they hung around their own necks than than it is to a sensible and coherent approach to cpdraining the money doping from the game and making it a truly amateur sport again.

If it was all down to money Dublin would be running away with all the hurling all irelands also because they have similar amounts pumped into hurling in dublin. If anything hurling has started to regress aagain in dublin. Dublin quite simply have a great manager, great team and group of players at the moment. Some of their players like brogan, flynn etc are coming right to the end of their careers and I have a feeling they will slip back in the next year or 2. As it is most of their latter stage of the championship matches in the last few years have been very tight which shows that even now they're not that far ahead of teams like kerry, mayo and donegal.

The only reason Dublin haven't won a hurling AI is the best hurlers are also top footballers, and it's a football first county. Once the Kilkennys and Costellos start choosing hurling that will come, it should be very frightening how fast Dublin have become a major power in hurling thanks to the money they've pumped into the sport.

What other county in living memory have done what Dublin have and became a major power without having any tradition or even primary status in their county to work in the sport's advantage? Hurling is such a closed shop apart from Dublin, Westmeath giving a half-interested Galway a shock is the closet to a breakthrough we've seen in a very long time.

Offaly in 1981, Syf. Came out of nowhere. Won 4 all Irelands in less than 20 years

[ballinaman]

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[The Trap]

I think a big problem in football anyway is that we went through a period in the 70s/early 80s when Dublin and Kerry dominated and it was all ok.......other provincial winners took their beating and got on with it.......no back door......no sky Tv.......no social media.......nobody knew any different.......then we had a great period when so many different teams competed and football was at its zenith from the mid 80s to late noughties ......this was the pinnacle and still fresh in all of our memories........we long for those days again......but the world has moved on....Ireland is now a much more international outgoing place......our young people want to be part of success but want it given to them, not to have to really dig in and work for it......that is why I can't see teams closing gaps......our rural communities are decimated......those counties just won't be able to compete.......Kerry and Dublin dominating again does not carry the same appeal as before.......we long for a time when Cork Meath Galway Armagh Down Derry Wexford Monaghan Laois Kildare are all at or near the top table.......with Tyrone Mayo Donegal and Monaghan .......Cavan Westmeath Leitrim Sligo and Clare winning provincial titles......Fermanagh limerick Louth and Antrim in finals......we went through a very special 20 year period and now we are in a demise that I think the modern world will make it very difficult to emerge from......i really can't see Antrim or Fermanagh competing again......Armagh have fired all they can at it with mcgeeney as manager but they just don't have it.........that said down v Armagh is a game to look forward to as we genuinely don't know who is going to win....... a rarity nowadays.......this thread is about splitting the championship into 2 x 16s.........it would need to be 8 at most and then 24.......oh that's right it's going to be 8 from next year.......but feck the other 24.......and the players in the other 24 will really start to says what's the point!!!!!

[Kilkevan]

The only reason Dublin haven't won a hurling AI is the best hurlers are also top footballers, and it's a football first county. Once the Kilkennys and Costellos start choosing hurling that will come, it should be very frightening how fast Dublin have become a major power in hurling thanks to the money they've pumped into the sport.

Dublin aren't a major power in hurling and haven't been in decades. They've improved certainly and moved from being no hopers into a team which in a given year could compete for a Leinster championship. The closest they went to an All Ireland was in 2013 when neither Kilkenny nor Tipperary turned up and so it was a very level playing field. They've also moved back into arguably being provincial contenders, though this year they are a total mess, at a time when other more traditional competitors had gone back a good bit. There was a gap which had been vacated by Wexford and has been by Offaly and Dublin have slotted into that position. Saying they're a major power simply does not stack up.

I don't disbelieve that they can, maybe will, win an All Ireland at some point in the future. The hurling culture isn't there for them to dominate though. Football will always be the quickest route to success in Dublin and that will pull what hurlers there are away from the small ball game. Equally, hurling isn't sown into Dublin's fabric. Go to any part of Kilkenny and Tipperary, the real hurling strongholds in Cork and Waterford and you see young fellas, and girls, carrying hurls around with them like they're an additional body appendage. You can throw all the money you like at Dublin hurling but you just can't buy that kind of thing in a sport which is notoriously difficult to perfect.

Back to football, what caused Dublin to be so weak for years? It's still only ten to fifteen years ago where Dublin couldn't win even in Leinster. Being from Kilkenny, I wouldn't have the in-depth football knowledge most of you would have but something must have caused that. Could those conditions present again? I'm a believer that these things are cyclical and that Dublin will come back to the pack again. Take ourselves in hurling as a case in point, not so long ago other counties were despairing at our dominance, now we're no longer the front runners for the All Ireland, and perhaps not even for Leinster, and that's because of the cyclical nature of sport.

[Fuzzman]

oh that's right it's going to be 8 from next year.......but feck the other 24.......and the players in the other 24 will really start to says what's the point!!!!!

Why are people so confused about next year's so called "super 8". I'm not sure who came up with that term but it seems to have misled a lot of people.
AFAIK nothing has changed to stop every county making it to the last 8 like other years. You have your 4 provincial winners and then 4 who come through the back door. There is no set elite counties that are getting preference over other counties.
Like in any competition the best teams should rise to the top but of course we all know that the game has become a lot more professional and the teams with the bigger playing population, best underage structures and money to spend on them and many other factors will tend to do the best.

I think the provincials really have become boring and of no benefit any more.

Munster has always been won by Kerry or Cork. Cork seem to have lost their way every since the blanket defence style of play has been brought in and don't seem interested in adapting to it. Tipperary & Clare have improved and are capable of beating Cork but not Kerry.

Leinster has been completely taken over by the Dubs and none of the other counties seem even interested in competing with them any more. Dublin have only lost one Leinster match since 2005 and every match they play is a total damp squid as they know before hand it will be a walk in the park and there's no atmosphere or passion.
The Dubs have to wait every year until August before they get a match of any intensity as do Kerry.

Connacht used to be a little bit interesting with Mayo and Galway big rivals and Roscommon or Sligo throwing in the odd surprise. However, again in the last 7 or 8 years Mayo have kicked on and became a lot more professional and dominated the province with them only losing out in 2010 and 2016 since 2009.

Ulster, which used to be the only entertainment the rest of the country got from May to August doesn't have the tough 1st round matches it was renowned for any more with the demise of Down, Derry and Armagh. Donegal and Monaghan however have shown that you can turn things around and they along with Tyrone still make it a fiercely competitive championship.

Only in Ireland would you see us play a totally unbalanced championship structure with uneven numbers in each province where most games are a total walk over, yet we do have a competition where we have the top 8 teams in a league structure yet we rarely get to see them play each other.
I would love to see more full blooded championship games such as
Donegal v Kerry, Dublin v Tyrone, Mayo v Monaghan, Cork v Galway etc.

Most years we get 2 or 3 exciting games in the whole year.

I think next years championship will be very interesting as yes you'll probably have your usual suspects as provincial winners but I think there will be a lot more fight in teams coming through the back door.

[Rossfan]

Unless you bring in some sort of handicap system the best teams are going to be in the closing stages.
But isn't that the whole point of having a competition?

[seafoid]

Unless you bring in some sort of handicap system the best teams are going to be in the closing stages.
But isn't that the whole point of having a competition?

If teams have more matches they develop more experience. Many matches are won by a point later in the summer.
The idea of structured reform would be to give teams more matches. 

[OgraAnDun]

Unless you bring in some sort of handicap system the best teams are going to be in the closing stages.
But isn't that the whole point of having a competition?

If teams have more matches they develop more experience. Many matches are won by a point later in the summer.
The idea of structured reform would be to give teams more matches.

Because teams of a similar standard are playing eachother, not because poor teams have built up a head of steam after a few qualifier rounds.

[Esmarelda]

There's been so much discussion on this topic, both on this board and elsewhere, that I think a few things can be almost agreed upon:

-If we were starting from scratch, we wouldn't devise a system based on the provincials.
-A graded system, whatever it may be, would seem like a sensible option.
-Any system needs to be included in a calendar that meets the needs of the clubs and club players.

The problem, as I see it, is culture. Antrim are used to being allowed to attempt to win the Ulster Championship and the Sam Maguire. Any move to take either away is likely be resisted by all GAA people in the county; players and supporters in particular. The result is lack of interest in the competition entered, players not committing and fans not attending.

The GPA members confirmed their opposition to such a move only last year. Would board members be happy for a tiered-system to be introduced if it meant their county not entering the race for Sam?

The question is, how do you change this general view? If the footballers of the likes of Leitrim, Carlow, Wicklow and Waterford prefer the current system to the tiered one, I think we have a long way to go in getting the changes that are being suggested by many in the media.

[seafoid]

Unless you bring in some sort of handicap system the best teams are going to be in the closing stages.
But isn't that the whole point of having a competition?

If teams have more matches they develop more experience. Many matches are won by a point later in the summer.
The idea of structured reform would be to give teams more matches.

Because teams of a similar standard are playing eachother, not because poor teams have built up a head of steam after a few qualifier rounds.

Teams gel after a few matches. Just look at Down in the league. 2 matches in they had zero points and were favs for relegation
I'd say counties like Ros and Cavan would improve with more matches. 

[Kickham csc]

The answer is simple.

Start a rating system whereby your performance in league, and provincial championship determine your ranking for the All Ireland draw, and, create 4 equal brackets, and a straight knockout championship.

In this structure, you no longer have 2 championship matches, but 8 league + 2 championship games, which gives 10 games that are linked to winning the All Ireland.

This is the system for US college basketball, and march madness is by far the best tournament in sports IMO.
In the US, they love the system because you have conferences which drives year on year local rivalry, and the tournament which provides the opportunity for a shock result (which happens every year)

It would be a simple solution to the current debacle

[Rossfan]

What would those "equal brackets" be?
Will they be graded as in the NFL?
Will 2 teams from each get to AI Qtr Finals?

[OgraAnDun]

Unless you bring in some sort of handicap system the best teams are going to be in the closing stages.
But isn't that the whole point of having a competition?

If teams have more matches they develop more experience. Many matches are won by a point later in the summer.
The idea of structured reform would be to give teams more matches.

Because teams of a similar standard are playing eachother, not because poor teams have built up a head of steam after a few qualifier rounds.

Teams gel after a few matches. Just look at Down in the league. 2 matches in they had zero points and were favs for relegation
I'd say counties like Ros and Cavan would improve with more matches.

Aye and then they beat an awful Derry team, a Meath side who looked like they had a few pints with their pre-match meal and struggled to a draw with an already safe Cork. A run of games can help a side but it is definitely not the reason for closer games in later stages of the championship.

[Kickham csc]

What would those "equal brackets" be?
Will they be graded as in the NFL?
Will 2 teams from each get to AI Qtr Finals?

4 groups of 8, each group having a 1/4 final, semi final and final, with the winner going to the semis
Grade them, top 4 rated teams go in as 1 seeds in each group and so on. This would result in provincials and league games now being important and bring in championship type pressure to the games.

In effect the semi in each group would be an All Ireland 1/4 final.

This creates a simple and clear draw. No advantages given or disadvantages given to when you are knocked out of the championship.

As I say, it works for NA colleges and march madness is a fantastic tournament