Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66

[seafoid]

The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.

Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/there-can-be-no-doubt-that-certain-words-ian-paisley-spoke-sent-men-out-to-kill-1.1927558

"I remembered the three little Quinn brothers, burned to death in their home in Ballymoney after apocalyptic warnings from Paisley over the rights of the Orange Order at Drumcree.
I remembered Billy Mitchell, a forlorn former loyalist paramilitary who told me he'd been into rock and roll until he started going to Paisley's rallies in the 1960s and dropped rocking round the clock in favour of preparing for doomsday. He killed two men and never forgave himself.
I remembered Mrs Reavey from Whitecross, whose sons were murdered by loyalists. She died a few years ago still waiting for Paisley to apologise for saying they were in the IRA when he knew well that they were not. "

[michaelg]

The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.

Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.

So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

[Owen Brannigan]

The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.

Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Who did McGuinness kill?

Begin by reading this article.........

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/ed-moloney-he-was-savagely-cruel-but-only-mcguinness-could-end-the-terror-1-7884440Who did McGuinness kill?

Then move on to Maloney's 'A Secret History of the IRA", 'Voices From The Grave' and 'Paisley - From Demagogue to Democrat?'

[CiKe]

The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.

Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.

So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

Not.about to reread the 10+ pages since his death.but frankly hadn't noticed this collective airbrushing of history you refer to. Plenty of debate about his past

[Il Bomber Destro]

The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.

Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.

So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass, de Valera?

[michaelg]

The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.

Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.

So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass, de Valera?

Pretty sure none stooped as low as the proxy bomb.

[Il Bomber Destro]

The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.

Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.

So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass, de Valera?

Pretty sure none stooped as low as the proxy bomb.

That didn't answer my question.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?

[michaelg]

The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.

Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.

So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass, de Valera?

Pretty sure none stooped as low as the proxy bomb.

That didn't answer my question.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?

This thread is about Martin McGuiness - What do you think of his likely involvement in some of the murders highlihted in Moloney's article?

[imtommygunn]

The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.

Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.

So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

No. I am not comfortable with it either but the dup have links with very bad things too and are no strangers to rewriting history themselves. There are lots of double standards on the whole thing.

[Il Bomber Destro]

The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.

Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.

So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass, de Valera?

Pretty sure none stooped as low as the proxy bomb.

That didn't answer my question.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?

This thread is about Martin McGuiness - What do you think of his likely involvement in some of the murders highlihted in Moloney's article?

Suspected as you say. I'm wise enough to know war blurs lines, there is no defending some of the actions carried out by the Provos but every war or conflict will have these incidents across all sides. Martin McGuinness was an ordinary man who did extraordinary things due to the discrimination and state sponsored terrorism that was taking place in his own community. If you can't take that on board then there's no point discussing matters with you.

Now for the third time of asking.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?

For some reason it seems you are having difficulty applying your moral affliction to other parties, maybe because your ideals are not as pure as you'd like paint.

For what it's worth, Collins was one of the leading IRA men when 13 Protestant civilians were murdered in his home county of Cork over a short period of time. What do you think of Collins? A civilian informant was also murdered by Collins hit squad. What did you think of Collins?

[brokencrossbar1]

No one in any war has clean hands. War is dirty plain and simpke. No one is air brushing McGinnuess's past but simply asserting that he died a different man than he grew up and some are rationalising his past by contextualising it. When you have extremes you also have grey areas. We never forget the past but we need to learn and move on from the past. It takes some longer than others and that has to be respected too. He lived with secrets and he died with secrets, as no doubt did Paisley, David Irvine and many others. Accept it for that move on otherwise we live in the past forever. There will be no truth forum in NI. As the protagonists die off so the memories will fade and the atrocities lessen by distance in time. This will be seen against a very different world to where it happened and as a result will be easier to 'forget'. The long game is happening and will continue to happen

[T Fearon]

It is funny in a peculiar way that most of the well known protagonists (Adams,Mc Guinness,Adair,Wright) never did much in the way of jail time or indeed came into contact with the police all that often,and were allowed largely  to continue their activities unfettered for decades.

Too much of a murky relationship between all paramilitaries and the British Government,that's why there will never be a truth forum.

Still you do have to feel for victims,particularly those who had no involvement whatsoever with paramilitarism or so called security forces.

[Denn Forever]

Would Martin not have been excommunicated for being in  the IRA?

[michaelg]

The likes of Paisley and Mc Guinness probably regretted much of their earlier lives,when they reached the top of the greasy pole together.But this society is littered with "reformed" characters who either deny or minimalise their past.I know a guy who is a pastor in an evangelical church who was very strongly rumoured to be heavily involved in the sectarian slaughter of two young girls and a customer in a mobile shop 25 years ago,but refuses to go to the Police.

Paisley never murdered anyone. Pretty sure Martin did. Like it or not, that is a significant difference.  You cannot discount the heinous atrocities highlighted in Ed Moloney's article.

Paisley incited a lot though and as far as many are concerned has a lot of blood on his hands too. You may not think it is the same but many do - myself included.

So does that make it okay then?  I'm no fan of Paisley myself and respect McGuiness for successfully delivering peace, but the collective air brushing of history on here regarding the incidents in Moloney's article is the elephant in the room.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass, de Valera?

Pretty sure none stooped as low as the proxy bomb.

That didn't answer my question.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?

This thread is about Martin McGuiness - What do you think of his likely involvement in some of the murders highlihted in Moloney's article?

Suspected as you say. I'm wise enough to know war blurs lines, there is no defending some of the actions carried out by the Provos but every war or conflict will have these incidents across all sides. Martin McGuinness was an ordinary man who did extraordinary things due to the discrimination and state sponsored terrorism that was taking place in his own community. If you can't take that on board then there's no point discussing matters with you.

Now for the third time of asking.

What did you think of Collins, Lemass and de Valera?

For some reason it seems you are having difficulty applying your moral affliction to other parties, maybe because your ideals are not as pure as you'd like paint.

For what it's worth, Collins was one of the leading IRA men when 13 Protestant civilians were murdered in his home county of Cork over a short period of time. What do you think of Collins? A civilian informant was also murdered by Collins hit squad. What did you think of Collins?

Your comment re "Suspected as you say" speaks volumes.  The dogs in the street have a fair idea about what MMcG was involved in.  As such, you cannot claim there is "no point in discussing matters with you" if you are not going to accept his involvement.

As for your question, I would not condone any act of terrorism.  Not trying to provoke a response, but there is no excuse for the sectarian murder of fellow Protestant Irishmen or "suspected" informants.

[OgraAnDun]

Spies are killed in all wars, the US still facilitates capital punishment for US citizens engaged in espionage for a foreign entity I think? What would you rather the IRA did, build a prison to accommodate informers?