Would you be in favour of a second tier?

[five points]

It's a huge mistake in my opinion to tie the league and championship. We're going to be promoting or demoting for championship teams based on their league results in the crappy weather of January and February, which was already a ridiculously pressurised time of year.

15-20 years ago we had 18 teams in Division 1 and that helped a counties like Sligo, Limerick and Wexford to come on enormously. Now, we're pulling up the drawbridge on them.

[thewobbler]

Based on the what is going on at county level -  we need a change. The chances of a D1 team beating a D4 one is remote. Teams getting hammered out the gate year on year...I only have to look as far as my own county last year when we came up against two D1 teams.

You are 100% right, the Tommy Murphy was a shambles. But I'm sure the GAA are looking at and trying to correct the wrongs.  The key element is the PR / interest behind the competition, if they get that bit right then we are heading in the right direction imo. Time will tell but I am willing to give it a chance.

When PR can work: when the core product is good, but public awareness is not.

When PR cannot work: when the core product is poor.

You can call the B Championship anything you like; the Shield, the B, the Tommy Murphy, the Celtic League, the Intermediate. You can throw 5 year's of AI marketing budget at it and demand prime time tv slots.

But you can't change the fact that in its formative years, this will be a competition in which a large percentage of its competitors will not be bothered about winning, and a decent number of competitors  will happily exit at the earliest stage possible. So even if you win the bloody thing, it's a win tarnished by the fact that the first serious challenge you might face might not come along until the second half of the final.

This, basically, is a crap product. PR will not be able to change that. The best it can do is mask the crapness of the product a little. It cannot shine it up.

[twohands!!!]

Just had a look at what the Tier 2 competition would have looked like if it was in operation this year.

There would have been 15 teams in it (all the Division 3 and Division 4 teams for next year bar Cork, who wouldn't have been eligible because they got to a provincial final)

The 15 teams who would have been in it played 22 games in the qualifiers this year winning 7.

              Played        Won
Offaly        3                 2
Derry        2                1
Leitrim      2                1
Antrim      2               1
Down        2                1
Longford    2                1
Waterford  1                0
Wexford    1                0
Wicklow    1                0
Limerick     1                0
London      1                0
Louth       1                0
Carlow      1                0
Sligo            1                0
Tipperary     1                0

If the Tier 2 competition had been in place this year, the same teams would have played 29 games winning 15.

                      29   15
         
1   Finalist           4   4
2   Finalist           4   3
3   Semi-Finalist   3   2
4   Semi-Finalist   3   2
5   Quarter-Finalist   2   1
6   Quarter-Finalist   2   1
7   Quarter-Finalist   2   1
8   Quarter-Finalist   2   1
9   First Round   1   0
10   First Round   1   0
11   First Round   1   0
12   First Round   1   0
13   First Round   1   0
14   First Round   1   0
15   First Round   1   0

Most people critising seem to pointing out how it isn't perfect and I think you'd have to travel a fair bit to find someone who thinks it is.
However I really can't see how it's not an improvement on what it's replacing.

[twohands!!!]

While looking at the Tier 2 format, I was wondering about the sides who would have an exemption for reaching a provincial final.

I looked back over the last decade and these are the sides who would have gotten exemptions.
All of the 11 teams that got to the provincial finals from Tier 2 lost the provincial final.

                                                             Who they beat to get to the final               Losing Margin
                           
2019      Cork                                   Limerick                                         3
2018      Laois                                   Westmeath, Carlow                         18
2017      No-One            
2016      Westmeath                   Offaly, Kildare                                 15
2016      Tipperary                           Waterford, Cork                                 10
2015      Sligo                                   Roscommon                                         26
2015      Westmeath                   Meath, Wexford, Louth                         13
2014      No-One            
2013      London                           New York, Leitrim                                 16
2012      Sligo                                   New York, Galway                                 2
2011      Wexford                           Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow                 3
2010      Limerick                           Waterford                                         3
2010      Louth                           Longford, Kildare, Westmeath         2

Out of these 11 teams Tipperary in 2016 and Cork this year were the only teams who didn't follow up their loss in the provincial final with another loss.

I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the three year trial the Tier 2 sides look to have this aspect of the new format scrapped.

[CountyColours]

So are you not in favour of a tiered championship full stop. Or is it the just new format that you are against? If it's the new format what would you propose?

thewobbler..You are correct, and the fact is that by introducing more than one tier, the lower tiers will always be viewed as secondary (an inferior product) – that will be the perception. That doesn't mean it couldn't work out for the better long-term though. I think what the GAA throw at the second tier / budget will make a huge difference. Ok, we will have players going go to the US (we already have that). We will have players not committing (we already have this in abundance).

My view is we can either continue on as we are or we try to twist. The All Ireland is becoming less competitive each year, the beatings are getting worse, the players are becoming more disillusioned, the championship is becoming more one-sided. I'm open minded...not saying it's going to work out though.   

[five points]

Most people critising seem to pointing out how it isn't perfect and I think you'd have to travel a fair bit to find someone who thinks it is.
However I really can't see how it's not an improvement on what it's replacing.

Beating a no-hoper team in a nothing competition means nothing to anyone.

[lenny]

Most people critising seem to pointing out how it isn't perfect and I think you'd have to travel a fair bit to find someone who thinks it is.
However I really can't see how it's not an improvement on what it's replacing.

Beating a no-hoper team in a nothing competition means nothing to anyone.

Try telling that to all the junior and intermediate club champions round the country.

[five points]

Most people critising seem to pointing out how it isn't perfect and I think you'd have to travel a fair bit to find someone who thinks it is.
However I really can't see how it's not an improvement on what it's replacing.

Beating a no-hoper team in a nothing competition means nothing to anyone.

Try telling that to all the junior and intermediate club champions round the country.

They're not nothing competitions though, played by players who are for the most part itching for meaningful club football.

[sligoman2]

Just had a look at what the Tier 2 competition would have looked like if it was in operation this year.

There would have been 15 teams in it (all the Division 3 and Division 4 teams for next year bar Cork, who wouldn't have been eligible because they got to a provincial final)

The 15 teams who would have been in it played 22 games in the qualifiers this year winning 7.

              Played        Won
Offaly        3                 2
Derry        2                1
Leitrim      2                1
Antrim      2               1
Down        2                1
Longford    2                1
Waterford  1                0
Wexford    1                0
Wicklow    1                0
Limerick     1                0
London      1                0
Louth       1                0
Carlow      1                0
Sligo            1                0
Tipperary     1                0

If the Tier 2 competition had been in place this year, the same teams would have played 29 games winning 15.

                      29   15
         
1   Finalist           4   4
2   Finalist           4   3
3   Semi-Finalist   3   2
4   Semi-Finalist   3   2
5   Quarter-Finalist   2   1
6   Quarter-Finalist   2   1
7   Quarter-Finalist   2   1
8   Quarter-Finalist   2   1
9   First Round   1   0
10   First Round   1   0
11   First Round   1   0
12   First Round   1   0
13   First Round   1   0
14   First Round   1   0
15   First Round   1   0

Most people critising seem to pointing out how it isn't perfect and I think you'd have to travel a fair bit to find someone who thinks it is.
However I really can't see how it's not an improvement on what it's replacing.

Nice work two hands, only comment I would make is that the win to loss ratio is 1 to 1 for every winner there is a loser so there would be 14 winners to 14 losers (unless you consider a bye to the second round a win).  Your point however is very valid, the win percentage is 50% rather than ~20% in the current format.

[JoG2]

Most people critising seem to pointing out how it isn't perfect and I think you'd have to travel a fair bit to find someone who thinks it is.
However I really can't see how it's not an improvement on what it's replacing.

Beating a no-hoper team in a nothing competition means nothing to anyone.

Try telling that to all the junior and intermediate club champions round the country.

They're not nothing competitions though, played by players who are for the most part itching for meaningful club football.

Why are they not 'nothing competitions'?

[five points]

They're not nothing competitions though, played by players who are for the most part itching for meaningful club football.

Why are they not 'nothing competitions'?

Because they're the primary championship competitions for the participating players and teams.

[JoG2]

They're not nothing competitions though, played by players who are for the most part itching for meaningful club football.

Why are they not 'nothing competitions'?

Because they're the primary championship competitions for the participating players and teams.

ie teams competing at their current level

[CountyColours]

Completely disagree that they are nothing competitions...not for the teams competing in them anyway. I was at the Antrim Intermediate final this year, and the pride was bursting from the players / supporters from the winning team- Aldergrove (first title in 40+ years).  I believe the celebrations went on for days...

If it can work at club level, then why not county level?

[five points]

Completely disagree that they are nothing competitions...not for the teams competing in them anyway. I was at the Antrim Intermediate final this year, and the pride was bursting from the players / supporters from the winning team- Aldergrove (first title in 40+ years).  I believe the celebrations went on for days...

Did someone say that they are nothing competitions?

[CountyColours]

it's being insinuated. What is the difference between a tiered club championship and a tiered county championship?