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This is a gear grinder for me but it deserves a thread of its own.

"Political correctness" is a derogatory term dreamed up by right wingers to denounce every bit of progress we've made in advancing the cause of human dignity.

• Abolish slavery? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Desegregate races? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• End apartheid? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Stop being racist? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Stop being homophobic? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Marriage equality? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Be nice to immigrants? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Prevent refugees from drowning in the Mediterranean? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Can't smoke around your children? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Can't smoke in a pub? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Can't have a few pints before you drive? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Can't hunt foxes with hounds? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Can't execute people anymore? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• People upset about the Angelus on RTE? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Can't force atheists to pray? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• We have to treat women as human beings? "Political correctness gone mad!"

Newsflash: Times change. Values change. Stuff that was tolerated 100, 50, or only 10 years ago isn't tolerated anymore. This is the way of things. You can yap and whinge and cry about it all you like, but you can either change with the times or squeal like a spoiled brat every time we make a bit of progress and build a better society. If we listened to the "PC brigade" brigade we'd still be sending children up chimneys to clean them from the inside and locking single mothers up in Magdalene laundries.

Away and dry your eyes, you whinging shower of apes!

U started a thread to whinge and be careful who u are calling ape that's not very pc and could be misinterpreted by some of our sensitive posters.

I love it when we get so PC that the PC brigade are out PCd

https://extranewsfeed.com/what-is-white-feminism-8f376360a59

As it related to the womens protest march after Trump got elected

"3. White feminism reflected the lack of internalization of intersectionality, which allows for counter-concepts and false equivalencies like #AllLivesMatter and #NotAllMen to exist."


Theyll keep going around in circles until they end up where they started

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 15, 2017, 01:37:14 AM
This is a gear grinder for me but it deserves a thread of its own.

"Political correctness" is a derogatory term dreamed up by right wingers to denounce every bit of progress we've made in advancing the cause of human dignity.

• Abolish slavery? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Desegregate races? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• End apartheid? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Stop being racist? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Stop being homophobic? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Marriage equality? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Be nice to immigrants? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Prevent refugees from drowning in the Mediterranean? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Can't smoke around your children? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Can't smoke in a pub? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Can't have a few pints before you drive? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Can't hunt foxes with hounds? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Can't execute people anymore? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• People upset about the Angelus on RTE? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• Can't force atheists to pray? "Political correctness gone mad!"
• We have to treat women as human beings? "Political correctness gone mad!"

Newsflash: Times change. Values change. Stuff that was tolerated 100, 50, or only 10 years ago isn't tolerated anymore. This is the way of things. You can yap and whinge and cry about it all you like, but you can either change with the times or squeal like a spoiled brat every time we make a bit of progress and build a better society. If we listened to the "PC brigade" brigade we'd still be sending children up chimneys to clean them from the inside and locking single mothers up in Magdalene laundries.

Away and dry your eyes, you whinging shower of apes!

I'm usually in agreement with you but you are calling people whingers here after having the mother of all whinges.  As they would say on your side of the pond, "the optics aren't great".

Stewart Lee's take on those who oppose political correctness really is very good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99s19HBs-6A

Calling children spoilt little bastards for playing with their toys on Christmas Day - political correctness gone mad.  - Oh sorry that should never be tolerated!

I was having an argument with someone about this at the weekend.

1 - Is forcing people to say 'Happy Holidays' rather than 'Happy Christmas' PC gone mad, or is it correct?
2 - Does that actually happen?

Someone was going on about this PC gone mad stuff, and he used this as a reference. I know some American's do that, but to be honest I think that's to reflect the Jewish Hannukah rather than anything else, and I don't think they are 'forced' to do it. In Ireland, I have never noticed anyone saying, or proposing we say, 'Happy Holidays'.

IS this PC gone mad, or  is it paranoia?

Brexit and Trump released the restrictions on what goes for political discourse . There are an awful lot of racists , homophobes and mysogynists out there  . The economic situation doesn't help either.

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 11:56:52 AM
I was having an argument with someone about this at the weekend.

1 - Is forcing people to say 'Happy Holidays' rather than 'Happy Christmas' PC gone mad, or is it correct?
2 - Does that actually happen?

Someone was going on about this PC gone mad stuff, and he used this as a reference. I know some American's do that, but to be honest I think that's to reflect the Jewish Hannukah rather than anything else, and I don't think they are 'forced' to do it. In Ireland, I have never noticed anyone saying, or proposing we say, 'Happy Holidays'.

IS this PC gone mad, or  is it paranoia?

The term PC is oft misunderstood and misapplied.
PC does not go mad, it's people who go mad and abuse/disabuse PC, until it's no longer PC.

The solution is use both terms, happy holidays and happy christmas.
In Scandanavian countries both terms are used and interchangeable in usage by the same person or within the context of an exchange.
One can wish a person "happy christmas" and they may reply "happy holidays" without feeling in the least offended.

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 11:56:52 AM
I was having an argument with someone about this at the weekend.

1 - Is forcing people to say 'Happy Holidays' rather than 'Happy Christmas' PC gone mad, or is it correct?
2 - Does that actually happen?

Someone was going on about this PC gone mad stuff, and he used this as a reference. I know some American's do that, but to be honest I think that's to reflect the Jewish Hannukah rather than anything else, and I don't think they are 'forced' to do it. In Ireland, I have never noticed anyone saying, or proposing we say, 'Happy Holidays'.

IS this PC gone mad, or  is it paranoia?

Well, it's both since basically they are the same. There are those who feel upset if anyone criticises the Traveller community in any way.

Some years ago a Fine Gael senator, Anne Devlin, produced a report that was highly critical of certain aspects of Traveller culture. That was 10+ years ago and I can't recall the reason for her conducting this report and I was waiting for the politically correct mouth pieces to have a field day.
Instead, it was comical to see the likes of Kevin Myers and other self-important journalists and their fellow travellers making tits of themselves as they were caught like a dog with one pee and two lamposts.

Y' see, Anne stated in unequivocal terms that women in Traveller circles are treated as second class by the males. No parity of esteem there. So the PC brigade were in a fix. There were two proverbial sacred cows there and both couldn't be milked at the same time.
Last year there was outrage for the PC faction when the French government banned the wearing of burkhas on public beaches. (I think I got that right.)Few if any of the loolas realised that the wearing of burkhas and veils and that sort of craic was because the women in question were regarded as sex chattels and nothing more. They were and are treated in much the same way as the Traveller women mentioned by Anne Devlin.
"Happy Holidays" gives me a pain in the butt. From what my lawyer nephew tells me its used because its not connected in any way to the religious beliefs of any sept or church.
It's quite safe to say that the langers and their Confederate regalia know about as much about Robert E. Lee as they do about Henry VIII; Beauregard Nelson or Horatio Nelson. "Who gives a phuck, boy?" is the most likely answer to any query on the subject from any Leesider..

Just using the latter to highlight a point: If the people of Cork felt sympathy for the white supremacists in Virginia or flew their Stars and Bars as an act of solidarity for the KKK's cause, it would be a different matter entirely.
I tend not to go around rising rows that I have no hope of winning.

Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 15, 2017, 01:52:32 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 11:56:52 AM
I was having an argument with someone about this at the weekend.

1 - Is forcing people to say 'Happy Holidays' rather than 'Happy Christmas' PC gone mad, or is it correct?
2 - Does that actually happen?

Someone was going on about this PC gone mad stuff, and he used this as a reference. I know some American's do that, but to be honest I think that's to reflect the Jewish Hannukah rather than anything else, and I don't think they are 'forced' to do it. In Ireland, I have never noticed anyone saying, or proposing we say, 'Happy Holidays'.

IS this PC gone mad, or  is it paranoia?

Well, it's both since basically they are the same. There are those who feel upset if anyone criticises the Traveller community in any way.

Some years ago a Fine Gael senator, Anne Devlin, produced a report that was highly critical of certain aspects of Traveller culture. That was 10+ years ago and I can't recall the reason for her conducting this report and I was waiting for the politically correct mouth pieces to have a field day.
Instead, it was comical to see the likes of Kevin Myers and other self-important journalists and their fellow travellers making tits of themselves as they were caught like a dog with one pee and two lamposts.

Y' see, Anne stated in unequivocal terms that women in Traveller circles are treated as second class by the males. No parity of esteem there. So the PC brigade were in a fix. There were two proverbial sacred cows there and both couldn't be milked at the same time.
Last year there was outrage for the PC faction when the French government banned the wearing of burkhas on public beaches. (I think I got that right.)Few if any of the loolas realised that the wearing of burkhas and veils and that sort of craic was because the women in question were regarded as sex chattels and nothing more. They were and are treated in much the same way as the Traveller women mentioned by Anne Devlin.
"Happy Holidays" gives me a pain in the butt. From what my lawyer nephew tells me its used because its not connected in any way to the religious beliefs of any sept or church.
It's quite safe to say that the langers and their Confederate regalia know about as much about Robert E. Lee as they do about Henry VIII; Beauregard Nelson or Horatio Nelson. "Who gives a phuck, boy?" is the most likely answer to any query on the subject from any Leesider..

Just using the latter to highlight a point: If the people of Cork felt sympathy for the white supremacists in Virginia or flew their Stars and Bars as an act of solidarity for the KKK's cause, it would be a different matter entirely.
I tend not to go around rising rows that I have no hope of winning.

I'd take issue with your points above. Firstly, ignorance is no defence. Some symbols cannot be separated from their meaning - for instance, there is red and white in the Nazi swastika - but none of them are used on GAA terraces. So, whilst we can ignorantly look at confederate flags and wax nostalgic about watching "the Dukes of Hazzard", it doesn't change the fact that they represent a huge and potent evil - slavery.

Secondly, even if we were to accept ignorance as an excuse back in the day, it is inconceivable now for anyone attempting to fly that flag in this country without being aware of the overtones, whether they agree that it represents it or not. And if they had any empathy they wouldn't fly it because of the distress or discomfort it could cause to people of colour, whether American, African or from other backgrounds.

That's just manners, which is all PC is - manners and concern for other people.

But does the confederate flag symbolise slavery, or does it just symbolise the Southern States of the US, which included slavery. I'm not sure the Stars and Bars are a racist symbol in and of themselves, but obviously the rebels that flew it wanted to hold onto their secessionary status, and their slaves. Would the single star of the 'Bonnie Blue Flag' be deemed racist if it was flown?

The problem here, I believe, is not because they are flying a colourful flag which was used by the Army of Virginia in the civil war, and made famous in multiple movies and TV shows as part of the old South Yee Haw. It's because it's been taken over and used as a symbol of hate by the KKK and the Alt Right. That in itself is enough to disown it, as it does not have an official standing to fall back on, as a national flag would have.

I  sometimes whistle Dixie. Am I a racist?

Sensitivity to differences that others may have is to be encouraged and embraced, but at what point does common sense kick in?

We could all find something to be offended every minute of every day if we so choose

In the grand scale of things if it makes you feel better that there's a "Holiday Tree Lighting" rather a "Christmas Tree Lighting" you need to take a serious look in the mirror.

Poor Mitt Romney hates women because he had binders full of qualified female candidates for top positions at Bain Capital

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 02:51:55 PM
But does the confederate flag symbolise slavery, or does it just symbolise the Southern States of the US, which included slavery. I'm not sure the Stars and Bars are a racist symbol in and of themselves, but obviously the rebels that flew it wanted to hold onto their secessionary status, and their slaves. Would the single star of the 'Bonnie Blue Flag' be deemed racist if it was flown?

The problem here, I believe, is not because they are flying a colourful flag which was used by the Army of Virginia in the civil war, and made famous in multiple movies and TV shows as part of the old South Yee Haw. It's because it's been taken over and used as a symbol of hate by the KKK and the Alt Right. That in itself is enough to disown it, as it does not have an official standing to fall back on, as a national flag would have.

It symbolises an economic system that was based on slavery that the South went to war to defend. And they lost.

OK, but the Original Stars and Bars, the one with the big thick stripes, and the Bonnie Blue Flag, are also flags of the Confederacy. They would 'stand for' the same thing. But they would not be deemed racist, I would guess, if they were flown. Unless they too were appropriated by the Klan and flown at ignorant rallies like last week.

But the Confederate States didn't just "include" slavery. Slavery was the reason for their formation and its continued legality was what they were trying to defend. All the hand wringing over the official Stars and Bars and the Battle flag is irrelevant, as you say, AZ. The defenders of the Confederate "cause" and white supremacy have adopted the Battle flag. It IS the flag of the Confederacy and southern racism for all intents and purposes. Any idiot from Cork using that flag needs to wake up. This isn't black people taking ownership of the n-word. It's the brainless, heedless, offensive use of a very high profile symbol of someone else's racist policies and society. Would anyone condone Sligo people using the ISIS flag? Or, as easytiger said, GAA followers using the Nazi swastika flag?

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 03:05:58 PM
OK, but the Original Stars and Bars, the one with the big thick stripes, and the Bonnie Blue Flag, are also flags of the Confederacy. They would 'stand for' the same thing. But they would not be deemed racist, I would guess, if they were flown. Unless they too were appropriated by the Klan and flown at ignorant rallies like last week.

Surely you're talking about profile here?

If they were to suddenly wheel out the Stars and Bars, which existed for no other reason than the Confederacy, there would be a very swift backlash once it's origin became widely known.

Don't know anything about the Bonnie Blue flag.

Absolutely, it's profile. But do you think people are now cracking down on the Rebel flag because of the US Civil War, and the reasons behind it, or because the KKK now have adopted it?

I think it's the latter, and I think if the Cork lads rolled out the original Stars and Bars, even if people were aware of the origin, I don't think there'd be as big a storm about it unless some group like the Pillowcase Heads took it.

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 03:13:59 PM
Absolutely, it's profile. But do you think people are now cracking down on the Rebel flag because of the US Civil War, and the reasons behind it, or because the KKK now have adopted it?

I think it's the latter, and I think if the Cork lads rolled out the original Stars and Bars, even if people were aware of the origin, I don't think there'd be as big a storm about it unless some group like the Pillowcase Heads took it.

Hard to know. I think in this day and age, with social media and the availability of information on the internet, the backlash against the Stars and Bars would come very quickly, especially if they are being discouraged from using the battle flag.

As to your first point, I don't see much of a disconnect between the Civil War and the KKK, but that may not reflect wider perceptions, especially in Ireland.

Wasn't there something a few months ago that the London Underground announcements would no longer say "good morning ladies & gentlemen" and would change it to something "gender neutral".

Now that is crazy.

Some crackpot pressure group actually lobbied for it

Quote from: easytiger95 on August 15, 2017, 02:42:45 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 15, 2017, 01:52:32 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 11:56:52 AM
I was having an argument with someone about this at the weekend.

1 - Is forcing people to say 'Happy Holidays' rather than 'Happy Christmas' PC gone mad, or is it correct?
2 - Does that actually happen?

Someone was going on about this PC gone mad stuff, and he used this as a reference. I know some American's do that, but to be honest I think that's to reflect the Jewish Hannukah rather than anything else, and I don't think they are 'forced' to do it. In Ireland, I have never noticed anyone saying, or proposing we say, 'Happy Holidays'.

IS this PC gone mad, or  is it paranoia?

Well, it's both since basically they are the same. There are those who feel upset if anyone criticises the Traveller community in any way.

Some years ago a Fine Gael senator, Anne Devlin, produced a report that was highly critical of certain aspects of Traveller culture. That was 10+ years ago and I can't recall the reason for her conducting this report and I was waiting for the politically correct mouth pieces to have a field day.
Instead, it was comical to see the likes of Kevin Myers and other self-important journalists and their fellow travellers making tits of themselves as they were caught like a dog with one pee and two lamposts.

Y' see, Anne stated in unequivocal terms that women in Traveller circles are treated as second class by the males. No parity of esteem there. So the PC brigade were in a fix. There were two proverbial sacred cows there and both couldn't be milked at the same time.
Last year there was outrage for the PC faction when the French government banned the wearing of burkhas on public beaches. (I think I got that right.)Few if any of the loolas realised that the wearing of burkhas and veils and that sort of craic was because the women in question were regarded as sex chattels and nothing more. They were and are treated in much the same way as the Traveller women mentioned by Anne Devlin.
"Happy Holidays" gives me a pain in the butt. From what my lawyer nephew tells me its used because its not connected in any way to the religious beliefs of any sept or church.
It's quite safe to say that the langers and their Confederate regalia know about as much about Robert E. Lee as they do about Henry VIII; Beauregard Nelson or Horatio Nelson. "Who gives a phuck, boy?" is the most likely answer to any query on the subject from any Leesider..

Just using the latter to highlight a point: If the people of Cork felt sympathy for the white supremacists in Virginia or flew their Stars and Bars as an act of solidarity for the KKK's cause, it would be a different matter entirely.
I tend not to go around rising rows that I have no hope of winning.

I'd take issue with your points above. Firstly, ignorance is no defence. Some symbols cannot be separated from their meaning - for instance, there is red and white in the Nazi swastika - but none of them are used on GAA terraces. So, whilst we can ignorantly look at confederate flags and wax nostalgic about watching "the Dukes of Hazzard", it doesn't change the fact that they represent a huge and potent evil - slavery.

Secondly, even if we were to accept ignorance as an excuse back in the day, it is inconceivable now for anyone attempting to fly that flag in this country without being aware of the overtones, whether they agree that it represents it or not. And if they had any empathy they wouldn't fly it because of the distress or discomfort it could cause to people of colour, whether American, African or from other backgrounds.

That's just manners, which is all PC is - manners and concern for other people.

The salient point I was trying to make is in my last sentence ie "I tend not to go around rising rows that I have no hope of winning." I don't support the white supremacists in any way but am I entitled to force someone else to do as say as I do?
Okay, ignorance is no defence all right but defence of what?
Your definition of what's indefensible may not tally with that of someone else who looks at things from a different perspective.
I sincerely wish the Corkonians would put their confederate flags and general regalia away and find another way of expressing their feelings but I certainly can't or wouldn't insist that I am right and they are wrong so they should do as I say. Political correctness taken too excess is a form of intolerance and illiberalism that in its own way is just as insidioius as the antics of the white is right brigade in Charlottesville.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIpkdusnIkE

Imagine trying to have a reasonable conversation with a wagon like this

It's funny how the PC brigade label themselves as progressive and in turn label people who don't agree with them as backward...

Am I backward because I call a girl sweetheart or love when I great her? Ashley Judd and the PC brigade say so.
Am I backward if I use the term boy or girl or he or she instead of a more gender neutral prefix such as "Ze" - The PC brigade would say so
Am I backward when I get upset that my child has been invited to a "spring sphere hunt" and that people can't call it Easter Eggs..... the school system here would say so.

It's all going too far. We are losing who we are as people

Are you pulling the piss? A spring sphere hunt?

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 03:47:25 PM
Are you pulling the piss? A spring sphere hunt?

Nope - fact. Up in Seattle area. Apparently they were renamed back in 2011 in the school district. Seattle and San Fran are the most progressive thinkers in America. The rest of us are backward if we don't agree with all of their musings...

Quote from: easytiger95 on August 15, 2017, 02:42:45 PM
That's just manners, which is all PC is - manners and concern for other people.

A lot of people take PC stances in online debates just to win the argument and take the moral high ground, not because they give a toss about the people being discriminated against. I know plenty of selfish pr!cks who are politically correct in every way, just as I know lads who are very un-PC and inappropriate but are good hearted and would try to help others where they can.

Quote from: The Iceman on August 15, 2017, 03:55:37 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 03:47:25 PM
Are you pulling the piss? A spring sphere hunt?

Nope - fact. Up in Seattle area. Apparently they were renamed back in 2011 in the school district. Seattle and San Fran are the most progressive thinkers in America. The rest of us are backward if we don't agree with all of their musings...

Fox News angst.
The world is going to pot because of welfare fraud, food stamps,  immigrants, mexicans, muslims, the evil "pc brigade" are taking easter away from "us".
The PC brigade are out to get you, according to Fox news.

Quote from: The Iceman on August 15, 2017, 03:55:37 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 03:47:25 PM
Are you pulling the piss? A spring sphere hunt?

Nope - fact. Up in Seattle area. Apparently they were renamed back in 2011 in the school district. Seattle and San Fran are the most progressive thinkers in America. The rest of us are backward if we don't agree with all of their musings...

Are they definitely spherical though, while we're being correct, politically or otherwise?

Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 15, 2017, 03:32:21 PM

Quote from: easytiger95 on August 15, 2017, 02:42:45 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 15, 2017, 01:52:32 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 11:56:52 AM
I was having an argument with someone about this at the weekend.

1 - Is forcing people to say 'Happy Holidays' rather than 'Happy Christmas' PC gone mad, or is it correct?
2 - Does that actually happen?

Someone was going on about this PC gone mad stuff, and he used this as a reference. I know some American's do that, but to be honest I think that's to reflect the Jewish Hannukah rather than anything else, and I don't think they are 'forced' to do it. In Ireland, I have never noticed anyone saying, or proposing we say, 'Happy Holidays'.

IS this PC gone mad, or  is it paranoia?

Well, it's both since basically they are the same. There are those who feel upset if anyone criticises the Traveller community in any way.

Some years ago a Fine Gael senator, Anne Devlin, produced a report that was highly critical of certain aspects of Traveller culture. That was 10+ years ago and I can't recall the reason for her conducting this report and I was waiting for the politically correct mouth pieces to have a field day.
Instead, it was comical to see the likes of Kevin Myers and other self-important journalists and their fellow travellers making tits of themselves as they were caught like a dog with one pee and two lamposts.

Y' see, Anne stated in unequivocal terms that women in Traveller circles are treated as second class by the males. No parity of esteem there. So the PC brigade were in a fix. There were two proverbial sacred cows there and both couldn't be milked at the same time.
Last year there was outrage for the PC faction when the French government banned the wearing of burkhas on public beaches. (I think I got that right.)Few if any of the loolas realised that the wearing of burkhas and veils and that sort of craic was because the women in question were regarded as sex chattels and nothing more. They were and are treated in much the same way as the Traveller women mentioned by Anne Devlin.
"Happy Holidays" gives me a pain in the butt. From what my lawyer nephew tells me its used because its not connected in any way to the religious beliefs of any sept or church.
It's quite safe to say that the langers and their Confederate regalia know about as much about Robert E. Lee as they do about Henry VIII; Beauregard Nelson or Horatio Nelson. "Who gives a phuck, boy?" is the most likely answer to any query on the subject from any Leesider..

Just using the latter to highlight a point: If the people of Cork felt sympathy for the white supremacists in Virginia or flew their Stars and Bars as an act of solidarity for the KKK's cause, it would be a different matter entirely.
I tend not to go around rising rows that I have no hope of winning.

I'd take issue with your points above. Firstly, ignorance is no defence. Some symbols cannot be separated from their meaning - for instance, there is red and white in the Nazi swastika - but none of them are used on GAA terraces. So, whilst we can ignorantly look at confederate flags and wax nostalgic about watching "the Dukes of Hazzard", it doesn't change the fact that they represent a huge and potent evil - slavery.

Secondly, even if we were to accept ignorance as an excuse back in the day, it is inconceivable now for anyone attempting to fly that flag in this country without being aware of the overtones, whether they agree that it represents it or not. And if they had any empathy they wouldn't fly it because of the distress or discomfort it could cause to people of colour, whether American, African or from other backgrounds.

That's just manners, which is all PC is - manners and concern for other people.

The salient point I was trying to make is in my last sentence ie "I tend not to go around rising rows that I have no hope of winning." I don't support the white supremacists in any way but am I entitled to force someone else to do as say as I do?
Okay, ignorance is no defence all right but defence of what?
Your definition of what's indefensible may not tally with that of someone else who looks at things from a different perspective.
I sincerely wish the Corkonians would put their confederate flags and general regalia away and find another way of expressing their feelings but I certainly can't or wouldn't insist that I am right and they are wrong so they should do as I say. Political correctness taken too excess is a form of intolerance and illiberalism that in its own way is just as insidioius as the antics of the white is right brigade in Charlottesville.

How can it be PC-excess to point out to Cork people that the flag they are using is a symbol of racism and slavery? That's a simple fact. If they have an argument defending its use, I'd love to hear it and how they rationalize its use. Not everything in life is defensible. I can't imagine their "argument" having much validity.

Quote from: Main Street on August 15, 2017, 03:59:14 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on August 15, 2017, 03:55:37 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 03:47:25 PM
Are you pulling the piss? A spring sphere hunt?

Nope - fact. Up in Seattle area. Apparently they were renamed back in 2011 in the school district. Seattle and San Fran are the most progressive thinkers in America. The rest of us are backward if we don't agree with all of their musings...

Fox News angst.
The world is going to pot because of welfare fraud, food stamps,  immigrants, mexicans, muslims, the evil "pc brigade" are taking easter away from "us".
The PC brigade are out to get you, according to Fox news.

Deflecting Asal Mor.
I'm giving real examples.
Join the conversation instead of stirring the pot

Eggs aren't even spherical!

Why not just call them "spring eggs"?  :P

But yes, some take things too far, as with anything.

Doesn't mean that we should go back to the days of calling black people "boy" or the n-word or it being acceptable to slap your young secretary on the ass.

The "spring sphere" crowd are idiots. So are the people who get their knickers in a twist over "happy holidays".

Quote from: J70 on August 15, 2017, 04:08:51 PM
Eggs aren't even spherical!

Why not just call them "spring eggs"?  :P

But yes, some take things too far, as with anything.

Doesn't mean that we should go back to the days of calling black people "boy" or the n-word or it being acceptable to slap your young secretary on the ass.

The "spring sphere" crowd are idiots. So are the people who get their knickers in a twist over "happy holidays".

But J70 why does it mean going back to those days? Why can't we just go back to yesterday where it was ok to have an Easter Egg and a Christmas Tree? Why does going back to then have to be extrapolated out to racism and sexual abuse of women? Why are they even linked?

Quote from: The Iceman on August 15, 2017, 04:02:38 PM

Quote from: Main Street on August 15, 2017, 03:59:14 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on August 15, 2017, 03:55:37 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 03:47:25 PM
Are you pulling the piss? A spring sphere hunt?

Nope - fact. Up in Seattle area. Apparently they were renamed back in 2011 in the school district. Seattle and San Fran are the most progressive thinkers in America. The rest of us are backward if we don't agree with all of their musings...

Fox News angst.
The world is going to pot because of welfare fraud, food stamps,  immigrants, mexicans, muslims, the evil "pc brigade" are taking easter away from "us".
The PC brigade are out to get you, according to Fox news.

Deflecting Asal Mor.
I'm giving real examples.
Join the conversation instead of stirring the pot

Real example me hole, you have a reality bypass.
One example from an age ago and you're off on a pc brigade rant versus "us".

Quote from: The Iceman on August 15, 2017, 04:18:26 PM

Quote from: J70 on August 15, 2017, 04:08:51 PM
Eggs aren't even spherical!

Why not just call them "spring eggs"?  :P

But yes, some take things too far, as with anything.

Doesn't mean that we should go back to the days of calling black people "boy" or the n-word or it being acceptable to slap your young secretary on the ass.

The "spring sphere" crowd are idiots. So are the people who get their knickers in a twist over "happy holidays".

But J70 why does it mean going back to those days? Why can't we just go back to yesterday where it was ok to have an Easter Egg and a Christmas Tree? Why does going back to then have to be extrapolated out to racism and sexual abuse of women? Why are they even linked?

Who says it's not ok to have an xmas tree or Easter eggs? No one is stopping you. Nor is anyone stopping you saying Merry Christmas.

My point was that a lot of this so-called PC stuff is valid e.g. the declining acceptability of racial epithets or sexual harassment. You can't seriously claim that the whining about political correctness doesn't include whining about the upright to use certain terms (we've had it on this board). Some pc stuff goes too far, almost into parody, for sure. School boards may verge into ridiculousness in trying to be inclusive, but ultimately, is that really that big a deal? Cultural diversity and public inclusiveness are not mutually exclusive.

Nobody is stopping us down in Florida no. But in Seattle honestly the kids were told it wasn't an easter egg hunt it was a spring sphere hunt.
PC stuff does go too far. I don't think its wrong or unacceptable of me to be upset about it. Especially when it infringes on my beliefs and way of life.
I agree that a lot of the PC stuff is valid and also that a lot of it is becoming a parody of itself.

Main street not sure where your aggression is coming from

"Infringes on my beliefs and way of life"

f**k off. It doesn't infringe on anything. I suggest you look up the meaning of the word.

Is it ok to call someone (presumably you mean a somewhat random female, not your wife or daughter) "love" or "sweetheart"? No it clearly f**king isn't.

Are you backward if you use "he" or "she"? No. Tell me about the overwhelmingly large PC Brigade crusade to limit your ability to do so.

Is renaming it a spring sphere hunt completely over the top, daft nonsense? Yes. Are you backward that you get "upset" about this? Absolutely.

Quote from: gallsman on August 15, 2017, 06:51:04 PM
Is it ok to call someone (presumably you mean a somewhat random female, not your wife or daughter) "love" or "sweetheart"? No it clearly f**king isn't.

It's okay in the north of England.

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 03:47:25 PM
Are you pulling the piss? A spring sphere hunt?

It's like the "War on Christmas."  Right wingers have been scaremongering about this sort of thing for years. They find some obscure corner of the country where one person said something overly sensitive and they blow that up to make it sound like it's part of a massive nationwide campaign to ban Easter/Christmas/any other popular holiday.

The rebel flag at the hurling semi appears to have upset some idiots. I am sure they will be calling for the Druids Glen to be renamed too.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 15, 2017, 06:58:03 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 03:47:25 PM
Are you pulling the piss? A spring sphere hunt?

It's like the "War on Christmas."  Right wingers have been scaremongering about this sort of thing for years. They find some obscure corner of the country where one person said something overly sensitive and they blow that up to make it sound like it's part of a massive nationwide campaign to ban Easter/Christmas/any other popular holiday.

Don't forget the PTA in suburban Boston who cancelled the annual kids trip to the Nutcracker in case someone got triggered by seeing a Christmas Tree/Holiday Tree

Quote from: gallsman on August 15, 2017, 06:51:04 PM
"Infringes on my beliefs and way of life"

f**k off. It doesn't infringe on anything. I suggest you look up the meaning of the word.

Infringe - definition - to encroach on, to limit...
not sure why you think it's a wrong use of the word. We celebrate Easter in my house, we celebrate Christmas in my house. When we lived in Seattle the kids couldn't talk about it. They were told it wasn't for school. School had spring spheres and winter celebrations. Being told differently had an impact on my family. I'm not sure why you are so upset?

Quote from: gallsman on August 15, 2017, 06:51:04 PM
Is it ok to call someone (presumably you mean a somewhat random female, not your wife or daughter) "love" or "sweetheart"? No it clearly f**king isn't.

Why is it not ok to use terms of endearment to refer to someone? I use them all the time? Are you an Antrim man? you've never called anyone mate or mucker? Love? I struggle to believe your stance on this one is genuine and thought out...

Quote from: gallsman on August 15, 2017, 06:51:04 PM
Are you backward if you use "he" or "she"? No. Tell me about the overwhelmingly large PC Brigade crusade to limit your ability to do so.

Why are you not backward if you use he or she but backward if you use love or sweetheart? I never mentioned an overwhelmingly large PC brigade crusade - I just pointed out examples

Quote from: gallsman on August 15, 2017, 06:51:04 PM
Is renaming it a spring sphere hunt completely over the top, daft nonsense? Yes. Are you backward that you get "upset" about this? Absolutely.

Why am I backward because I am upset?
Are you backward because you are upset at me and cursing me out?...

Quote from: J70 on August 15, 2017, 04:02:05 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 15, 2017, 03:32:21 PM

Quote from: easytiger95 on August 15, 2017, 02:42:45 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 15, 2017, 01:52:32 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 11:56:52 AM
I was having an argument with someone about this at the weekend.

1 - Is forcing people to say 'Happy Holidays' rather than 'Happy Christmas' PC gone mad, or is it correct?
2 - Does that actually happen?

Someone was going on about this PC gone mad stuff, and he used this as a reference. I know some American's do that, but to be honest I think that's to reflect the Jewish Hannukah rather than anything else, and I don't think they are 'forced' to do it. In Ireland, I have never noticed anyone saying, or proposing we say, 'Happy Holidays'.

IS this PC gone mad, or  is it paranoia?

Well, it's both since basically they are the same. There are those who feel upset if anyone criticises the Traveller community in any way.

Some years ago a Fine Gael senator, Anne Devlin, produced a report that was highly critical of certain aspects of Traveller culture. That was 10+ years ago and I can't recall the reason for her conducting this report and I was waiting for the politically correct mouth pieces to have a field day.
Instead, it was comical to see the likes of Kevin Myers and other self-important journalists and their fellow travellers making tits of themselves as they were caught like a dog with one pee and two lamposts.

Y' see, Anne stated in unequivocal terms that women in Traveller circles are treated as second class by the males. No parity of esteem there. So the PC brigade were in a fix. There were two proverbial sacred cows there and both couldn't be milked at the same time.
Last year there was outrage for the PC faction when the French government banned the wearing of burkhas on public beaches. (I think I got that right.)Few if any of the loolas realised that the wearing of burkhas and veils and that sort of craic was because the women in question were regarded as sex chattels and nothing more. They were and are treated in much the same way as the Traveller women mentioned by Anne Devlin.
"Happy Holidays" gives me a pain in the butt. From what my lawyer nephew tells me its used because its not connected in any way to the religious beliefs of any sept or church.
It's quite safe to say that the langers and their Confederate regalia know about as much about Robert E. Lee as they do about Henry VIII; Beauregard Nelson or Horatio Nelson. "Who gives a phuck, boy?" is the most likely answer to any query on the subject from any Leesider..

Just using the latter to highlight a point: If the people of Cork felt sympathy for the white supremacists in Virginia or flew their Stars and Bars as an act of solidarity for the KKK's cause, it would be a different matter entirely.
I tend not to go around rising rows that I have no hope of winning.

I'd take issue with your points above. Firstly, ignorance is no defence. Some symbols cannot be separated from their meaning - for instance, there is red and white in the Nazi swastika - but none of them are used on GAA terraces. So, whilst we can ignorantly look at confederate flags and wax nostalgic about watching "the Dukes of Hazzard", it doesn't change the fact that they represent a huge and potent evil - slavery.

Secondly, even if we were to accept ignorance as an excuse back in the day, it is inconceivable now for anyone attempting to fly that flag in this country without being aware of the overtones, whether they agree that it represents it or not. And if they had any empathy they wouldn't fly it because of the distress or discomfort it could cause to people of colour, whether American, African or from other backgrounds.

That's just manners, which is all PC is - manners and concern for other people.

The salient point I was trying to make is in my last sentence ie "I tend not to go around rising rows that I have no hope of winning." I don't support the white supremacists in any way but am I entitled to force someone else to do as say as I do?
Okay, ignorance is no defence all right but defence of what?
Your definition of what's indefensible may not tally with that of someone else who looks at things from a different perspective.
I sincerely wish the Corkonians would put their confederate flags and general regalia away and find another way of expressing their feelings but I certainly can't or wouldn't insist that I am right and they are wrong so they should do as I say. Political correctness taken too excess is a form of intolerance and illiberalism that in its own way is just as insidioius as the antics of the white is right brigade in Charlottesville.

How can it be PC-excess to point out to Cork people that the flag they are using is a symbol of racism and slavery? That's a simple fact. If they have an argument defending its use, I'd love to hear it and how they rationalize its use. Not everything in life is defensible. I can't imagine their "argument" having much validity.

On a personal note I disagree with the display of Confederate flags and banners at Cork matches. I'd be happy to point this out to any langer I speak to, if and when the topic arose. However, telling anyone to stop doing something because I say so could provoke a backlash.
Like your good self, I personally don't think any such action is morally defensible but the decision is not mine to make.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 15, 2017, 06:58:03 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 03:47:25 PM
Are you pulling the piss? A spring sphere hunt?

It's like the "War on Christmas."  Right wingers have been scaremongering about this sort of thing for years. They find some obscure corner of the country where one person said something overly sensitive and they blow that up to make it sound like it's part of a massive nationwide campaign to ban Easter/Christmas/any other popular holiday.

I would hardly call Seattle an obscure corner of the country. It's hardly obscure and it's 3 hours from the coast... ;)
But you can't have it both ways Eamonn - either it's progressive or its not? and for the record I am not a rightwinger - I don't align with either party or side. It doesn't define my life. You've spent too much time in SFO lad (is it still ok to call people "lad" Gallsman?) oops...

Quote from: The Iceman on August 15, 2017, 07:18:23 PM

Quote from: gallsman on August 15, 2017, 06:51:04 PM
"Infringes on my beliefs and way of life"

f**k off. It doesn't infringe on anything. I suggest you look up the meaning of the word.

Infringe - definition - to encroach on, to limit...
not sure why you think it's a wrong use of the word. We celebrate Easter in my house, we celebrate Christmas in my house. When we lived in Seattle the kids couldn't talk about it. They were told it wasn't for school. School had spring spheres and winter celebrations. Being told differently had an impact on my family. I'm not sure why you are so upset?

You celebrate Easter and Christmas in your house? Well done. Did anyone forcibly enter your home and demand you refer to a holiday tree or a spring sphere hunt at home? I know America is fucked but I highly doubt it. How did the school policy affect your family life? If your kids are unable to use the words "Christmas" or "Easter" within the confines of the family, I suggest you look closer to home for the blame.

Quote from: gallsman on August 15, 2017, 08:05:49 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on August 15, 2017, 07:18:23 PM

Quote from: gallsman on August 15, 2017, 06:51:04 PM
"Infringes on my beliefs and way of life"

f**k off. It doesn't infringe on anything. I suggest you look up the meaning of the word.

Infringe - definition - to encroach on, to limit...
not sure why you think it's a wrong use of the word. We celebrate Easter in my house, we celebrate Christmas in my house. When we lived in Seattle the kids couldn't talk about it. They were told it wasn't for school. School had spring spheres and winter celebrations. Being told differently had an impact on my family. I'm not sure why you are so upset?

You celebrate Easter and Christmas in your house? Well done. Did anyone forcibly enter your home and demand you refer to a holiday tree or a spring sphere hunt at home? I know America is fucked but I highly doubt it. How did the school policy affect your family life? If your kids are unable to use the words "Christmas" or "Easter" within the confines of the family, I suggest you look closer to home for the blame.

So to your point my life only constitutes within my own home? And anything that affects it outside of the home I can't comment or complain about?
Not sure where you are going with this at all?
And thanks for addressing all the points and backing up your arguments... top person

FT :
The Trump administration recently killed an effort to use online technologies to draw people away from extremism, axing a $400,000 grant for a deradicalisation group called Life after Hate in Chicago. Run by several former members of white nationalist organisations, the group was planning to use counter extremism technologies pioneered by Moonshot of London

Quote from: seafoid on August 15, 2017, 09:15:06 PM
FT :
The Trump administration recently killed an effort to use online technologies to draw people away from extremism, axing a $400,000 grant for a deradicalisation group called Life after Hate in Chicago. Run by several former members of white nationalist organisations, the group was planning to use counter extremism technologies pioneered by Moonshot of London

Steve Bannon was never going to have that.

Quote from: The Iceman on August 15, 2017, 05:07:27 PM
Nobody is stopping us down in Florida no. But in Seattle honestly the kids were told it wasn't an easter egg hunt it was a spring sphere hunt.
PC stuff does go too far. I don't think its wrong or unacceptable of me to be upset about it. Especially when it infringes on my beliefs and way of life.
I agree that a lot of the PC stuff is valid and also that a lot of it is becoming a parody of itself.

Main street not sure where your aggression is coming from

Honestly Iceman, what difference does it REALLY make to the beliefs or way life of you or your kids if, when in school, they have to engage in a "spring sphere" hunt?  (I looked it up, and apparently the whole broohaha refers to some 16 year old named Jessica being told she must use this term six years ago - I don't see anything about it official Seattle School Board policy. The wife's aunt works for Seattle schools... must ask her about this!)

Somebody somewhere who know's somebody's cousin's aunt who once spoke to a mate of mine said that Easter Eggs now have to be called "Spheres," ergo there's a war on Easter and it's Political Correctness Gone Mad ^TM.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 16, 2017, 01:45:12 AM
Somebody somewhere who know's somebody's cousin's aunt who once spoke to a mate of mine said that Easter Eggs now have to be called "Spheres," ergo there's a war on Easter and it's Political Correctness Gone Mad ^TM.

I prefer the one where the school banned Halloween celebrations because they might be offensive to "real witches".

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=184701&page=1

It's the equivalent of the straight bananas myth. Brought to you by Boris Johnson.

Quote from: J70 on August 16, 2017, 01:36:01 AM

Quote from: The Iceman on August 15, 2017, 05:07:27 PM
Nobody is stopping us down in Florida no. But in Seattle honestly the kids were told it wasn't an easter egg hunt it was a spring sphere hunt.
PC stuff does go too far. I don't think its wrong or unacceptable of me to be upset about it. Especially when it infringes on my beliefs and way of life.
I agree that a lot of the PC stuff is valid and also that a lot of it is becoming a parody of itself.

Main street not sure where your aggression is coming from

Honestly Iceman, what difference does it REALLY make to the beliefs or way life of you or your kids if, when in school, they have to engage in a "spring sphere" hunt?  (I looked it up, and apparently the whole broohaha refers to some 16 year old named Jessica being told she must use this term six years ago - I don't see anything about it official Seattle School Board policy. The wife's aunt works for Seattle schools... must ask her about this!)

It's one more thing added to the list J70. Compounding. It's one of the reasons we were happy to hit the road again - the place was too liberal for us.
If that was the only thing, you are right - it didn't really make a difference - but compounded with everything else - it wasn't the place for us and didn't synch up with how we want to live.

I'd still love to hear back from gallsman after his rant - you can IM me if you want...

For years now I have been ignoring the clear and present danger of this threat from the pc brigade, nevertheless, I have a growing fear,  an utter dread of the time when the pc brigade will finally catch up with me, packs of them in my vicinity,  breathing my air, dirty little tree hugging pinkos waving their Guardian newspaper subscriptions in the air.

However, there's some consolation as I read the comments under this article in the Indo  from those of our fine citizens who are completely untouched by the pc disease. At least we can still call a spade a spade in the Indo, one of the last bastions of unfettered free speech.

 
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/appalling-disgusting-vandals-destroy-memorial-to-11-victims-of-carrickmines-fire-tragedy-36037250.html (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/appalling-disgusting-vandals-destroy-memorial-to-11-victims-of-carrickmines-fire-tragedy-36037250.html)

"Vandals destroy memorial to 11 victims of Carrickmines fire tragedy"


"The statue of ' Our Lady ' could be replaced with a solid metal one ?"
"It'd be sold for scrap and melted down"


"it looks like a grave, it's ghastly and tasteless. If it can be seen from the Glenamuck road I wouldn't be surprised of the neighbors did a job on it. I would if it popped up on my road."


"...I'm also sick of the way we have to pc our way around this ethnic group. When can we grow up as a nation, and say straight out to people that their so called way of life is incompatible with modern Ireland and that the taxpayers should not be expected to fund "state of the art halting sites".

"Was there planning permission for the memorial?"

Quote from: The Iceman on August 15, 2017, 05:07:27 PM
Nobody is stopping us down in Florida no. But in Seattle honestly the kids were told it wasn't an easter egg hunt it was a spring sphere hunt.
PC stuff does go too far. I don't think its wrong or unacceptable of me to be upset about it. Especially when it infringes on my beliefs and way of life.
I agree that a lot of the PC stuff is valid and also that a lot of it is becoming a parody of itself.

Main street not sure where your aggression is coming from

Seattle is a hot bed for liberal thought police, sphere hunt my hole.

Quote from: stew on August 16, 2017, 03:03:36 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on August 15, 2017, 05:07:27 PM
Nobody is stopping us down in Florida no. But in Seattle honestly the kids were told it wasn't an easter egg hunt it was a spring sphere hunt.
PC stuff does go too far. I don't think its wrong or unacceptable of me to be upset about it. Especially when it infringes on my beliefs and way of life.
I agree that a lot of the PC stuff is valid and also that a lot of it is becoming a parody of itself.

Main street not sure where your aggression is coming from

Seattle is a hot bed for liberal thought police, sphere hunt my hole.

Emmm :)

Quote from: whitey on August 16, 2017, 01:54:32 AM

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 16, 2017, 01:45:12 AM
Somebody somewhere who know's somebody's cousin's aunt who once spoke to a mate of mine said that Easter Eggs now have to be called "Spheres," ergo there's a war on Easter and it's Political Correctness Gone Mad ^TM.

I prefer the one where the school banned Halloween celebrations because they might be offensive to "real witches".

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=184701&page=1

Another non-story.

Quote from: seafoid on August 15, 2017, 03:00:55 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 02:51:55 PM
But does the confederate flag symbolise slavery, or does it just symbolise the Southern States of the US, which included slavery. I'm not sure the Stars and Bars are a racist symbol in and of themselves, but obviously the rebels that flew it wanted to hold onto their secessionary status, and their slaves. Would the single star of the 'Bonnie Blue Flag' be deemed racist if it was flown?

The problem here, I believe, is not because they are flying a colourful flag which was used by the Army of Virginia in the civil war, and made famous in multiple movies and TV shows as part of the old South Yee Haw. It's because it's been taken over and used as a symbol of hate by the KKK and the Alt Right. That in itself is enough to disown it, as it does not have an official standing to fall back on, as a national flag would have.

It symbolises an economic system that was based on slavery that the South went to war to defend. And they lost.

You will never please everyone. Down Dixie way, you will be told that the Yanks started the
war  because the Southern states could sell their produce cheaper than their Northern counterparts. Dunno how true that is that view is widely held in the south.

The civil war was about slavery no matter how much the rednecks try to deny it

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 16, 2017, 07:18:45 PM
The civil war was about slavery no matter how much the rednecks try to deny it

It was about the model to export West. The south wanted slavery beyond Dixié. 
Sherman destroyed their economy. They went back to their old ways with Jim Crow. It wasn't until 100 years after the war that black people were fully acknowledged as equal citizens.

Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 16, 2017, 07:04:52 PM

Quote from: seafoid on August 15, 2017, 03:00:55 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 02:51:55 PM
But does the confederate flag symbolise slavery, or does it just symbolise the Southern States of the US, which included slavery. I'm not sure the Stars and Bars are a racist symbol in and of themselves, but obviously the rebels that flew it wanted to hold onto their secessionary status, and their slaves. Would the single star of the 'Bonnie Blue Flag' be deemed racist if it was flown?

The problem here, I believe, is not because they are flying a colourful flag which was used by the Army of Virginia in the civil war, and made famous in multiple movies and TV shows as part of the old South Yee Haw. It's because it's been taken over and used as a symbol of hate by the KKK and the Alt Right. That in itself is enough to disown it, as it does not have an official standing to fall back on, as a national flag would have.

It symbolises an economic system that was based on slavery that the South went to war to defend. And they lost.

You will never please everyone. Down Dixie way, you will be told that the Yanks started the
war  because the Southern states could sell their produce cheaper than their Northern counterparts. Dunno how true that is that view is widely held in the south.

It's not true.

Slavery was far and away the primary issue. Even the articles of secession stated as such. It's pure self-serving denialism and propaganda on the part of southerners to suggest otherwise.

Quote from: The Iceman on August 15, 2017, 07:18:23 PM

Quote from: gallsman on August 15, 2017, 06:51:04 PM
Is it ok to call someone (presumably you mean a somewhat random female, not your wife or daughter) "love" or "sweetheart"? No it clearly f**king isn't.

Why is it not ok to use terms of endearment to refer to someone? I use them all the time? Are you an Antrim man? you've never called anyone mate or mucker? Love? I struggle to believe your stance on this one is genuine and thought out...

Quote from: gallsman on August 15, 2017, 06:51:04 PM
Are you backward if you use "he" or "she"? No. Tell me about the overwhelmingly large PC Brigade crusade to limit your ability to do so.

Why are you not backward if you use he or she but backward if you use love or sweetheart? I never mentioned an overwhelmingly large PC brigade crusade - I just pointed out examples

Quote from: gallsman on August 15, 2017, 06:51:04 PM
Is renaming it a spring sphere hunt completely over the top, daft nonsense? Yes. Are you backward that you get "upset" about this? Absolutely.

Why am I backward because I am upset?
Are you backward because you are upset at me and cursing me out?...

Term of endearment? What right have you to use terms of endearment to the girl in Starbucks? Or behind the till in Walmart? It's sexist and demeaning to address someone as such if you've no relationship with them that merits its use. Comparing it to mate or mucker (not a Belfast term fyi) is laughable.

He or she are simply pronouns. Nothing more. Nobody any pays the slightest bit of attention to is campaigning for the use of "ze".

Why are you backward because your upset? Because your upset about something that has literally zero impact on how you wish to live your life or raise your kids. You are actively searching for things to get offended about.

As for me being backward for being upset by you, I'm not upset by you in the slightest. Rather I find you highly entertaining.

Quote from: gallsman on August 16, 2017, 08:45:58 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on August 15, 2017, 07:18:23 PM

Quote from: gallsman on August 15, 2017, 06:51:04 PM
Is it ok to call someone (presumably you mean a somewhat random female, not your wife or daughter) "love" or "sweetheart"? No it clearly f**king isn't.

Why is it not ok to use terms of endearment to refer to someone? I use them all the time? Are you an Antrim man? you've never called anyone mate or mucker? Love? I struggle to believe your stance on this one is genuine and thought out...

Quote from: gallsman on August 15, 2017, 06:51:04 PM
Are you backward if you use "he" or "she"? No. Tell me about the overwhelmingly large PC Brigade crusade to limit your ability to do so.

Why are you not backward if you use he or she but backward if you use love or sweetheart? I never mentioned an overwhelmingly large PC brigade crusade - I just pointed out examples

Quote from: gallsman on August 15, 2017, 06:51:04 PM
Is renaming it a spring sphere hunt completely over the top, daft nonsense? Yes. Are you backward that you get "upset" about this? Absolutely.

Why am I backward because I am upset?
Are you backward because you are upset at me and cursing me out?...

Term of endearment? What right have you to use terms of endearment to the girl in Starbucks? Or behind the till in Walmart? It's sexist and demeaning to address someone as such if you've no relationship with them that merits its use. Comparing it to mate or mucker (not a Belfast term fyi) is laughable.

He or she are simply pronouns. Nothing more. Nobody any pays the slightest bit of attention to is campaigning for the use of "ze".

Why are you backward because your upset? Because your upset about something that has literally zero impact on how you wish to live your life or raise your kids. You are actively searching for things to get offended about.

As for me being backward for being upset by you, I'm not upset by you in the slightest. Rather I find you highly entertaining.

who are you to assume anyone is your mate or mucker? Or call someone lad? Why is laughable to compare mate to love or dear?

usually when you find something/one entertaining you don't curse at them..the sun is going to your head ze

Quote from: gallsman on August 16, 2017, 08:45:58 PM
Term of endearment? What right have you to use terms of endearment to the girl in Starbucks? Or behind the till in Walmart? It's sexist and demeaning to address someone as such if you've no relationship with them that merits its use. Comparing it to mate or mucker (not a Belfast term fyi) is laughable.

Jesus. I'd stay away from Yorkshire if I were you. Every shopkeeper there will call you "love." You'd be horrified!

I'm not sure you fully get how personal pronouns work there Iceman.

I find football, hurling, soccer, rugby etc highly entertaining and I curse at them all the time.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 16, 2017, 09:09:43 PM

Quote from: gallsman on August 16, 2017, 08:45:58 PM
Term of endearment? What right have you to use terms of endearment to the girl in Starbucks? Or behind the till in Walmart? It's sexist and demeaning to address someone as such if you've no relationship with them that merits its use. Comparing it to mate or mucker (not a Belfast term fyi) is laughable.

Jesus. I'd stay away from Yorkshire if I were you. Every shopkeeper there will call you "love." You'd be horrified!

I'm familiar with the place. Just because it happens a lot doesn't make it right.

So every dialect in the north of England is sexist because they call you "love?"

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2017, 02:51:55 PM
But does the confederate flag symbolise slavery, or does it just symbolise the Southern States of the US, which included slavery. I'm not sure the Stars and Bars are a racist symbol in and of themselves, but obviously the rebels that flew it wanted to hold onto their secessionary status, and their slaves. Would the single star of the 'Bonnie Blue Flag' be deemed racist if it was flown?

The problem here, I believe, is not because they are flying a colourful flag which was used by the Army of Virginia in the civil war, and made famous in multiple movies and TV shows as part of the old South Yee Haw. It's because it's been taken over and used as a symbol of hate by the KKK and the Alt Right. That in itself is enough to disown it, as it does not have an official standing to fall back on, as a national flag would have.

C'mon AZ. You're dancing on the head of a pin. Slavery was the lynchpin of the Southern economy, and because of its importance, a complex belief system of various different mythologies about "negroes" was put in place to safeguard its position. By the time of the Civil War, the South was slavery and slavery was the South. If you believe any different, or even if you're in  any doubt, you're buying into the myth of the lost cause and a chivalrous and romantic antebellum fantasy. Revisionist bullshit of the highest order, and I'd recommend you read a few histories of the Confederacy and ensuing conflict.

As for whistling Dixie, it's all about context - grand if you're doing it by yourself, not great if you are doing it in front of black people in Mississippi. Which, essentially, is what these statues were doing every day to African Americans in Southern States. I'm really surprised that Irish people, who should have some knowledge of how an oppressor implements his oppression, can be so blind to it as to lump it in under "PC". Actually, I'm not surprised, just disappointed.

Thanks Easytiger. I've read quite a bit about the Civil war thanks. Save your patronising comments for someone who might be influenced by them. Apologies if you didn't mean to be patronising, but my hackles go up when someone tells me to read about something I have an interest in already :)

In this context we are asking what does the Flag represent, in the eyes of those who fly it in Ireland. I have outlined on another thread why Cork lads would have, back in the 80s, picked it up. It was cool, it was dukes of hazzard, it was the Southern Rebels.

Of course today, it has been highjacked by Klansmen and alt-rights. You might argue it has always been thus, and you'd be right. However in more recent times, this has come much more front and centre in the public consciousness, and while I have no doubts that the Cork lads have no truck with rednecks who want to wage war essentially with anyone who doesn't agree with their racist agenda, I think it's obvious they should fold away the old battle flag.

Well, if you've read a bit about it, I don't know how you come up with a formulation like -

But does the confederate flag symbolise slavery, or does it just symbolise the Southern States of the US, which included slavery

or

Of course today, it has been highjacked by Klansmen and alt-rights.

That "hijack" took place a long, long time ago, and I'm sorry if you think I am being patronising, but even posing the question is ahistorical, and obscuring the actual nature of the Confederacy is a  tactic that has been used by Lost Causers for the past century. My hackles rise when I see something like that, and, knowing you long enough on this board to know that is not the way you roll, I suggested you do some reading. Fair enough, I would have thought.

Finally, to descendants of former slaves, the confederate battle flag symbolises slavery. I would have thought in the context of manners, empathy and where they intersect with PC, that is all that matters.

Quote from: easytiger95 on August 17, 2017, 12:10:52 PM
Well, if you've read a bit about it, I don't know how you come up with a formulation like -

But does the confederate flag symbolise slavery, or does it just symbolise the Southern States of the US, which included slavery

or

Of course today, it has been highjacked by Klansmen and alt-rights.

That "hijack" took place a long, long time ago, and I'm sorry if you think I am being patronising, but even posing the question is ahistorical, and obscuring the actual nature of the Confederacy is a  tactic that has been used by Lost Causers for the past century. My hackles rise when I see something like that, and, knowing you long enough on this board to know that is not the way you roll, I suggested you do some reading. Fair enough, I would have thought.

Finally, to descendants of former slaves, the confederate battle flag symbolises slavery. I would have thought in the context of manners, empathy and where they intersect with PC, that is all that matters.

You're missing the Context.  The question is what do the people who fly it think it represents? Or what *did* they think it represented when they first decided to fly it. I think you need to take a breath and read what I am saying.

And as for my second emboldened comment, again, I am talking about in context. You seem to have somehow missed the next thing I wrote,

"You might argue it has always been thus, and you'd be right. However in more recent times, this has come much more front and centre in the public consciousness"

Again, read in context. We are not discussing the Civil War. We are discussing why people from Cork would fly that flag, and whether asking them to stop is PC or not.

It really is pli-ical crectniss gone maaaad that we don't see this sort of thing around Dublin anymore.

(https://comeheretome.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/swastikalaundryvan2.jpg)

(https://cedarlounge.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/image_large-1.jpeg)

(http://theinquisition.eu/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/swastika-laundry-building.jpg)

In Delhi, those things are all over the place.

The context of your first quote is this -

But does the confederate flag symbolise slavery, or does it just symbolise the Southern States of the US, which included slavery. I'm not sure the Stars and Bars are a racist symbol in and of themselves, but obviously the rebels that flew it wanted to hold onto their secessionary status, and their slaves. Would the single star of the 'Bonnie Blue Flag' be deemed racist if it was flown?

The flag was of an Army fighting to uphold a racist system. It is a racist symbol, was then and will be in the future with the redoubled efforts of neo Nazis and Klansmen. Nowhere in that post are you questioning what Cork people think of it - you're questioning the inherent meaning of the symbol, which is what I was responding to.

As for the second quote, you make a statement and then immediately disown it - there is a big difference between "today it has been hijacked by KKK" and then saying "of course it was ever thus". I'm sorry, but that is confusing. My point is that the Confederate Flag was carried at the head of Klan rallies in New York and Washington in the mid 20s, were shown in "Birth of a Nation", and were always associated with the ideology of racism. If this is only now becoming more front and centre, then I would refer you to my earlier posts, where I said that ignorance is not an excuse, and, even if it was, now there is no excuse for that ignorance, in the case of Cork fans. As said by me, and by other posters on the Cork flags thread, if we should all "get over it" and "have a sense of humour", then I would suggest they bring a swastika to the next game, and see just how difficult it is to divest a symbol of its inherent meaning.

Fair point. That was badly worded. I meant that someone who flew the Stars and Bars would not necessarily see them as racist, because they'd have a different understanding (in the 80s) of what that meant.

As for confusing you with my second point, again, may be poorly worded, but essentially I am saying that while they were used at Klan rallies and had other racist overtones, always, in the context of a Cork Langer flying it, all they knew in the 80s was the Dukes of Hazzard and Country and Western Music with Pickup Trucks and Good Ol' Boys, and a romantic view of the overmatched Rebels punching the big guy in the nose.

Yep, agree with that, I just think that time is gone where people can claim ignorance of the overtones.

And. to be fair, maybe I do need a sense of humour transplant. Sorry if you thought I was getting at you, it was badly phrased on my part as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-40976064 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-40976064)

::)

Quote from: AZOffaly on August 17, 2017, 12:32:40 PM
In Delhi, those things are all over the place.

Ha its true, funnily enough as shocking as it is when you see it in another context for the first time you soon start to get used it.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/medias.photodeck.com/709275ec-a234-4a07-98db-b73d95fdd5e1/Brett-Cole-India-04871_medium.jpg)
Amazing how a symbol can have an affect of horror on you, Im sure someone has done a study of it how it gets like that.
For me its the Union Jack... initially it still just makes my blood boil until I reason my reaction away.

See where espn have pulled an announcer from a university of Virginia game because his name is Robert lee , the gentleman in question is of Asian decent.
What is the end game with all this pc bullshit

Quote from: Gmac on August 23, 2017, 03:32:14 AM
See where espn have pulled an announcer from a university of Virginia game because his name is Robert lee , the gentleman in question is of Asian decent.
What is the end game with all this pc bullshit

And he is Asian American for f**k sake!!!, you couldn't make it up!

It shows you the respect that espn has for the
intelligence of  its viewers when it is afraid an Asian American by the name of Robert lee gets pulled from doing his job because he has  sort of the same name as a confederate general!



Welcome to the far left people, I will forever curse the name Obama for the absolute disgusting idiocy he fostered and championed during his tenure, the man was all about political correctness and he is an enabler of clowns like sid who love to be offended at every perceived slight.

Bit mad that... Stew what are you about far left?.... its the centre the whole way.

But hang on now.... should we not just call him Chinese or Oriental? Asian is a bit too PC (and technically inaccurate)

You see - this is where you whackfucks miss the total point. Totally tired of your cuntish bullshit Stew, and it's a shame that a good lad like GMAC has his name besmirched on here by the other knee jerk conspiracy theorist on here.

ESPN and Mr Lee (a part time commentator)- decided that it was best that he did not commentate on a specific game broadcast from Charlottsville , Va - and that it was better that he commented on a difference game this weekend...

Explain the uproar to me in an adult fashion and I might revoke the suggestion that you're a delusional paranoid p***k.

Quote from: stew on August 23, 2017, 05:58:36 AM

Quote from: Gmac on August 23, 2017, 03:32:14 AM
See where espn have pulled an announcer from a university of Virginia game because his name is Robert lee , the gentleman in question is of Asian decent.
What is the end game with all this pc bullshit

And he is Asian American for f**k sake!!!, you couldn't make it up!

It shows you the respect that espn has for the
intelligence of  its viewers when it is afraid an Asian American by the name of Robert lee gets pulled from doing his job because he has  sort of the same name as a confederate general!



Welcome to the far left people, I will forever curse the name Obama for the absolute disgusting idiocy he fostered and championed during his tenure, the man was all about political correctness and he is an enabler of clowns like sid who love to be offended at every perceived slight.

Yes, of course, it was a disgrace that millions of "decent" racists were pushed into voicing their true feelings.

And all because Obama had the temerity to be both black and the president!

Is langer the PC term for someone from cork then?

Quote from: Puckoon on August 23, 2017, 07:14:07 AM
You see - this is where you whackfucks miss the total point. Totally tired of your cuntish bullshit Stew, and it's a shame that a good lad like GMAC has his name besmirched on here by the other knee jerk conspiracy theorist on here.

ESPN and Mr Lee (a part time commentator)- decided that it was best that he did not commentate on a specific game broadcast from Charlottsville , Va - and that it was better that he commented on a difference game this weekend...

Explain the uproar to me in an adult fashion and I might revoke the suggestion that you're a delusional paranoid p***k.

I think there has to be some middle ground here Puck? because an asian guy should be confused with a confederate general who died 147 years ago? I don't know how much I could stand with you on that argument. There may not have been uproar but it isn't so easily defended as an argument to pull the guy?
Black Student Assembly at USC protested the school's mascot because his name is similar to Robert E. Lee's horse this week too - is that cuntish bullshit too?
In Baltimore, a Columbus statue -- the oldest one in America -- was smashed by Antifa thugs. I've seen pictures of a statue of Joan of Arc that was vandalized, And on and on it goes.
It's pitchfork mentality surely? but where is the logic in it all?

I don't support stupid - on either side. I don't support hate on either side. I don't know how you can stand with this crowd and call it ok mate? Maybe you're not? Maybe your stance against stew isn't a stance for ESPN but it looks like it from here...

Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2017, 10:34:38 AM

Quote from: stew on August 23, 2017, 05:58:36 AM

Quote from: Gmac on August 23, 2017, 03:32:14 AM
See where espn have pulled an announcer from a university of Virginia game because his name is Robert lee , the gentleman in question is of Asian decent.
What is the end game with all this pc bullshit

And he is Asian American for f**k sake!!!, you couldn't make it up!

It shows you the respect that espn has for the
intelligence of  its viewers when it is afraid an Asian American by the name of Robert lee gets pulled from doing his job because he has  sort of the same name as a confederate general!



Welcome to the far left people, I will forever curse the name Obama for the absolute disgusting idiocy he fostered and championed during his tenure, the man was all about political correctness and he is an enabler of clowns like sid who love to be offended at every perceived slight.

Yes, of course, it was a disgrace that millions of "decent" racists were pushed into voicing their true feelings.

And all because Obama had the temerity to be both black and the president!

Yes....and he was elected by white people too

Quote from: whitey on August 23, 2017, 06:01:05 PM

Quote from: sid waddell on August 23, 2017, 10:34:38 AM

Quote from: stew on August 23, 2017, 05:58:36 AM

Quote from: Gmac on August 23, 2017, 03:32:14 AM
See where espn have pulled an announcer from a university of Virginia game because his name is Robert lee , the gentleman in question is of Asian decent.
What is the end game with all this pc bullshit

And he is Asian American for f**k sake!!!, you couldn't make it up!

It shows you the respect that espn has for the
intelligence of  its viewers when it is afraid an Asian American by the name of Robert lee gets pulled from doing his job because he has  sort of the same name as a confederate general!



Welcome to the far left people, I will forever curse the name Obama for the absolute disgusting idiocy he fostered and championed during his tenure, the man was all about political correctness and he is an enabler of clowns like sid who love to be offended at every perceived slight.

Yes, of course, it was a disgrace that millions of "decent" racists were pushed into voicing their true feelings.

And all because Obama had the temerity to be both black and the president!

Yes....and he was elected by whitey people too

;)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-41224146 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-41224146)