The State Of Gaelic Football

[Rossfan]

All told people want to see more high catches, more goals, and more kicking the ball - and they don't give a fiddler's if they ruin the game in pursuit of their ideals.

I think they believe that they are improving the game. But it isn't easy, if you fiddle with one thing you affect another and simplistic solutions may do more damage than good.

+1.

[LeoMc]

Only allow the handpass in the opposition half ie on the attack.
Kickouts will probably go long. Ball will move quicker and be kicked out of this zone early.  Limits defensive options an gives the forwards a slight advantage.

Has the Black Card not already done this, leading to an all out retreat by some teams?

I think the more advantages we give to the forward, the more likely some managers will pull back players to help defend. It simply seems to be in the nature of many managers to prefer to lose a game 0-0 0-1 than lose 5-19 5-20.

Until their own supporters boo them off the park every time it happens, it will continue.

Think you misunderstood the point there.  They can pull 15 men back but they will be kicking the ball to each other rather than handpassing and thats dangerous if the other team pushes up on them.  Any team worth its salt will be driving to the half back line and up the fiield as soon as possible so they can get at the bould handpassing again. but it leaves only one half of the pitch for each team to fist pass.

Ok I see what you mean.

I would be concerned it could lead to a sort of aerial tennis that we see Ireland play in rugby, as in once a team gets pressed near its own line they will simply kick it back to the opposite who will camp at half way. Although your idea of giving the attacking team an advantage of the hand-pass might discourage them from kicking in straight again, as happens now in rugby.

I think anyone advocating limiting hand passing is missing the point. Hand passes are not the malaise, they are a symptom. Teams hand pass as there is nowhere to kick it to.

The number of good forwards in the game and current fitness levels mean that losing possession anywhere on the field is more likely to  result in a turnover* score (apologies for using this term for want of better terminology). Possession therefore becomes king.
The dearth of great defenders (or at least Managers willing to expose them 1 on 1) coupled with the lack of a clearly defined tackle means that multiple bodies are the easiest way to secure your defense. As a result the 15 yard hand pass to a moving target is safer than a 40 yard kick pass into a crowd.

In my opinion we need to clearly define the tackle and what that 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 battle should look like rather than the knee jerk reaction of "there are too many hand passes, ban the hand pass". IT is akin to the more recent "there are too many fouls not being properly penalised with yelow / red cards, add a new a card instead of implementing the existing penalties".

[blewuporstuffed]

Only allow the handpass in the opposition half ie on the attack.
Kickouts will probably go long. Ball will move quicker and be kicked out of this zone early.  Limits defensive options an gives the forwards a slight advantage.

Has the Black Card not already done this, leading to an all out retreat by some teams?

I think the more advantages we give to the forward, the more likely some managers will pull back players to help defend. It simply seems to be in the nature of many managers to prefer to lose a game 0-0 0-1 than lose 5-19 5-20.

Until their own supporters boo them off the park every time it happens, it will continue.

Think you misunderstood the point there.  They can pull 15 men back but they will be kicking the ball to each other rather than handpassing and thats dangerous if the other team pushes up on them.  Any team worth its salt will be driving to the half back line and up the fiield as soon as possible so they can get at the bould handpassing again. but it leaves only one half of the pitch for each team to fist pass.

Ok I see what you mean.

I would be concerned it could lead to a sort of aerial tennis that we see Ireland play in rugby, as in once a team gets pressed near its own line they will simply kick it back to the opposite who will camp at half way. Although your idea of giving the attacking team an advantage of the hand-pass might discourage them from kicking in straight again, as happens now in rugby.

I think anyone advocating limiting hand passing is missing the point. Hand passes are not the malaise, they are a symptom. Teams hand pass as there is nowhere to kick it to.

The number of good forwards in the game and current fitness levels mean that losing possession anywhere on the field is more likely to  result in a turnover* score (apologies for using this term for want of better terminology). Possession therefore becomes king.
The dearth of great defenders (or at least Managers willing to expose them 1 on 1) coupled with the lack of a clearly defined tackle means that multiple bodies are the easiest way to secure your defense. As a result the 15 yard hand pass to a moving target is safer than a 40 yard kick pass into a crowd.

In my opinion we need to clearly define the tackle and what that 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 battle should look like rather than the knee jerk reaction of "there are too many hand passes, ban the hand pass". IT is akin to the more recent "there are too many fouls not being properly penalised with yelow / red cards, add a new a card instead of implementing the existing penalties".

Exactly Leo, very good post.

[highorlow]

In my opinion we need to clearly define the tackle and what that 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 battle should look like rather than the knee jerk reaction of "there are too many hand passes, ban the hand pass".

The Tackle
The Tackle is re-defined as:
"The Tackle is a skill by which a player may dispossess an opponent or frustrate his objective within the Rules of Fair Play. The tackle is aimed at the ball, not the player. The tackler may use his body to confront the opponent but deliberate bodily contact (such as punching, slapping, arm holding, pushing, tripping, jersey pulling or a full frontal charge) is forbidden. The only deliberate physical contact can be a Fair Charge i.e. Shoulder-to-shoulder with at least one foot on the ground. More than one player can tackle the player in possession."

Just published and effective from 11th April 2015.

I'm not sure if the line in italics is correct. It's on the GAA website as the definition but not in the PDF document? I don't think this is a re-definition per se as I'm not sure we ever had a definition for the tackle before.

[BennyHarp]

In my opinion we need to clearly define the tackle and what that 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 battle should look like rather than the knee jerk reaction of "there are too many hand passes, ban the hand pass".

The Tackle
The Tackle is re-defined as:
"The Tackle is a skill by which a player may dispossess an opponent or frustrate his objective within the Rules of Fair Play.The tackle is aimed at the ball, not the player. The tackler may use his body to confront the opponent but deliberate bodily contact (such as punching, slapping, arm holding, pushing, tripping, jersey pulling or a full frontal charge) is forbidden. The only deliberate physical contact can be a Fair Charge i.e. Shoulder-to-shoulder with at least one foot on the ground. More than one player can tackle the player in possession."

Just published and effective from 11th April 2015.

I'm not sure if the line in italics is correct. It's on the GAA website as the definition but not in the PDF document? I don't think this is a re-definition per se as I'm not sure we ever had a definition for the tackle before.

To complement the tackle being on the ball rather than the player, I think  we must ensure that the 4 steps rule is enforced and be 100% strict with it. This gives the tackler a chance of making a clean tackle as he knows the ball will be played one way or another after 4 steps. If we give people a chance of making a clean tackle then managers may be more willing to take his chances on leaving a defender 1 on 1, and push the tackling up the field. A forward line of well coached tacklers who pressed defenders up the pitch knowing they have a chance of turning over possession may just be a very effective tactic. It may also force teams to play long rather than risk turn overs inside their own 45. Then people will probably complain that forwards don't traditionally tackle and we are ruining the game with all the turn overs.

[Whitnail]

It's the over handpassing that has grated me most over the last 5 years. Limit that and managers can't. really design a sturdy enough blanket , ?thats my opinion anyway.

Take the leauge semi's this weekend. I saw all four teams equally handpassing up the field (15-20 passes) then someone takes a shot at the bar. On at least 3 of those occasions I counted  the ball wasn't even kicked at the bar -it was handpassed over it meaning the only kick involved in the entire move was the goalie"s shot kick out. Add the fact that you have fellas taking 6-10 carrying steps going unpunished then it's just  not very inspiring.

If your a foreinger watching this (and sometimes you have to put yourself in the position of an outsider for a balanced view) then sometimes you might even strugle to call it a game or a sport at all.

In the cork /donegal game at least. cork's goals relieved the monotony a bit although there were several goal opportunities from both teams

I counted one goal chance in the Dublin/Monaghan game, a fluffed half chance from a dub half- forward. Thats one goal chance from both teams in 70mins of football.

Look forward to Colm's antidotes cause the handpas handpass handpass kick over the bar is as tough (if not tougher)  to appreciate even than massed defences imo.

I'm not convinced at all that this will just sort itself out anymore.

Give me strength! I think we've finally lost the run of ourselves!

Just rename it to "gaelige handball" then . Then it doesn't need to be discussed or modified and we can all pretend that that we enjoy watching 15-20 handpasses at a time .  Do you remember the game being less skillfull? Handpassing is effective it insures any team can hold on to the ball by keeping it going sideways backways &sideways again inching their way to shooting range.
It's obvious managers are advocating this afterall why risk kicking the ball anymore if you can get the ball to your man in the same place via 6,7 handpasses absolutely risk free.




Looking back over the last few pages and I can't see anyone advocating "banning" the handpass. Im not sure what those false hysterics are about. There are lots however advocating "limiting" the hanpass for the purpose of skill & entertainment to counteract the (almost pointless) spectacle its fast becoming at senior level.
At junior level I've seen alot of games where I'd say the ratio of kicking to handpassing was probably about 1:4. or 1:5 which is a pretty healthy stat . They kick the ball because they want to kick it and are allowed to. At senior inter-county level now the ratio is probably more like 1:10 in most matches - thats is a joke.
And its not because there's no one to kick it to or no space to kick it into , its because it's considered too risky & too nieve. It doesn't fit the model of getting the ball from A to B in the safest most reliable odds-on risk free method possible.
How to solve it ?-i don't know but im looking fir to colm's suggestions
But jesus cant we acknowledge it ffs without the negetivity & false hysterics.

[BennyHarp]

False hysterics? Take a look at yourself, with your made up ratios and nonsense about it not being a sport anymore. The hysterics are from those wanting to change rules due to a temporary shift in the pattern of play. I've put forward many times how I think we can move on from this without bastardising the game, but maybe I'm just being hysterical and we should change the rules ASAP everytime there is a few bad games.

[dublin7]

False hysterics? Take a look at yourself, with your made up ratios and nonsense about it not being a sport anymore. The hysterics are from those wanting to change rules due to a temporary shift in the pattern of play. I've put forward many times how I think we can move on from this without bastardising the game, but maybe I'm just being hysterical and we should change the rules ASAP everytime there is a few bad games.

You want some sauce for that chip on your shoulder. It's a sad fact that to be an inter county footballer, more emphasis is placed on fitness than kicking the ball.  Players are expected to have stamina levels of the energizer bunny to hand pass the ball up and down the pitch. It's all about keeping possession in todays game so most managers adopt a safety first approach of pulling players back behind the ball, hand pass it up the field to reduce the chances of losing possession & then race back into defence when/ if you do lose the ball or it goes out of play.

Kicking skills have declined over the last few years.  Personally I'd reduce teams to 13 a side.  More space for players to display their skills and blanket defences would be far harder to implement.  Most people agree something has to change as if things continue the way they are, fewer people will go to games, people will change the channel when football is on the tv and none of that is good for football or hurling.  But for some reason the majority of posters from Ulster counties seem to think there is nothing wrong & nothing to see here.  This is probably why Ulster championship games, admittedly the most competitive provincial games they are also the toughest to watch from a neutrals perspective, with the negative tactics, cyncical/off the ball fouls and generally dour games

[blewuporstuffed]

Kicking skills have declined over the last few years

What is the evidence of that? True the ball may not be kicked as often, but i dont see any evidence that the actual skill level has decreased.
This notion that in the past all Intercounty players were fabulous long kick passers is a myth.
Alot of the time the ball was just booted up the field for the forwards to fight for.

[BennyHarp]

Point taking from distance is as good if not better than it's ever been, this suggests kicking skills haven't declined. I don't have a chip on my shoulder, I just don't want our game changed every 2 seasons with fly by night rule changes that aren't thought out, trialled or negotiated with those actually playing and managing in the game.

[Knock Yer Mucker In]

Kicking skills have improved, the last four championships at inter county have been the highest scoring of all times, in an era of mass defence, meaning that instead of 3/4 players being best at kicking points, there are 9/10/11 players scoring points and from distance also. Players fist the ball because they can see there is no space to kick the ball into, but coaching has been better than ever and with that the overall standard of kicking has also improved. But when we played the Australians last Autumn they gave our best players a lesson on kick passing, but for me it was about their ability to kick the ball at the player, whilst we are taught to kick at space, our target is much bigger than theres and that explained for me why there kicking was more accurate.

[Rossfan]

....with fly by night rule changes that aren't thought out, trialled or negotiated with those actually playing and managing in the game.

Pity you weren't around in 1974 or so when they brought in the fcukin hand pass without trials or negotiations.

[BennyHarp]

....with fly by night rule changes that aren't thought out, trialled or negotiated with those actually playing and managing in the game.

Pity you weren't around in 1974 or so when they brought in the fcukin hand pass without trials or negotiations.

So you agree then that bringing in laws without proper thought or trial is not a good thing. That's the point I'm making.

[highorlow]

13 a side might work and improve things but not on it's own.

Someone mentioned the lesson we got off the aussies last year in kicking. They have the mark that's likely the reason for that.

The mark from kickouts only might be worth considering on a trial basis with perhaps another mark / free kick [taken from the hands] option from the subsequent kick.   

It's a bit of an extreme proposal but no more so than introducing an additional card and a whole set of rules for this new card.

[blewuporstuffed]

....with fly by night rule changes that aren't thought out, trialled or negotiated with those actually playing and managing in the game.

Pity you weren't around in 1974 or so when they brought in the fcukin hand pass without trials or negotiations.

Rossfan, do you really want to go back to a game with NO handpassing?