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Do away with Provincial Championships or if each council wants to run one fine but nothing to do with All Ireland. 8 groups of  4 with a team from each league 1-4. Play 3 games and top 2 in each group go into the race for the Sam Maguire, bottom 2 into the Paudi O Se, B,Intermediate whatever you want to call it.

Means at the start of the championship everybody is entered into the All Ireland but in most cases the Division 1 and 2 team will make it into senior championship last 16 though still potential for a surprise from division 3/4 like laois this year.

This makes some sense, albeit there still is a big emotional attachment for the provincial championship.

This idea of a tiered championship should only be considered if those that are likely to be in the second tier are in favour. I doubt they would be.

If there is a tiered system you are effectively forcing a player to play a secondary competition simply because of where they were born. I am aware that happens at club level, but I am sick of that argument. If you are county standard, you can play junior championship for your club, but at least you will ultimately have an outlet for your talent at County level. There is no where else to go for an inter county player.

If you were a player like Matty Forde for instance, under some of the proposals he would rarely, if ever, play in the Sam Maguire. The logical thing to do in circumstance where a great player is denied senior championship is allow them to transfer. That's the last thing anyone would want.

Mismatches have always occurred and there was not much said about it. People just moan about it because they have to watch it on TV more regularly now. In a proposal like pbat's everyone has their day out, but the GAA can sell the rights to the latter stages and then we can all stop moaning.

Sorry but that's nonsense. You are proposing that a team get a free in for doing nothing but keeping possession! This has gone full circle.

Totally ludicrous.

I am not suggesting that there would be a free for any given 25 second period of possession. The period would only start from the kick out and end when the half way line is breached, or the ball is touched by the opposition. You probably would not even notice it after a while in a game. The opposition would have to push up on the kick out and the reality is the kick out would probably have to go longer more often. Any short kick outs would result in serious press from the opposition.

I did suggest 25 seconds, but if that is perhaps too short a time frame it could be lengthened. I would imagine it could be lengthened to such a time frame that would result in a free of this nature being given relatively rarely, but enough of deterrent for teams getting back in defence and constricting the space. It's this lack of space in the forward line for the attacking team which is ruining the nature of the game.

Gone are the days of the one to one battles around the pitch. Football used to be superior to soccer, because even when scores were not happening, big shoulders out the field, a leaping full forward rising to catch the ball, or a corner forward going toe to toe with a corner back used to get the crowd roaring. There were more big moments to appreciate in a match. I don't blame the managers and players for the type of football played today. It's the best way to play under the present rules, but this disillusionment that is spreading is not some conspiracy created by Brolly etc.

25 seconds of hand passing around your back line and you get a 50?

Christ!

25 seconds of hand passing around your back line might seem like a piece of piss now, given the way the game is played. But it would be a lot more difficult if the the other team were forced to push up. Also, it does not necessarily have to be 25 seconds, it could be longer. But the point remains, a lot of people are serious that a discussion need to take place regarding a rule change, or football will start hemorrhaging support.

The rules have to change and evolve.

A lot of posters appear to mistake genuine concern for the health of the game for an attack on Dublin, or other superior teams. I would not blame Dublin one bit and the onus was certainly on Donegal to go looking for the ball.

Also, I think there is no doubt players today are fitter and their skill levels are vastly superior to players 25 years ago. It is a common sight today to see a corner back solo the ball 50 yards and score a point, unheard of 25 years ago. From number 1 to 15 all players have to now be comfortable on the ball. Some of the point scoring in the last decade has been outstanding and demonstrative of hours of practice.  The professionalism of the management teams is far more advanced today. Yet for all these advances the game has went backwards as a spectacle.

It is nonsense to say this is jumping on the Brolly/O'Rourke bandwagon. That is dismissing the intelligence of the many growing number of disgruntled viewers who can see for themselves the problems. Even in the higher scoring games, involving scores of the highest caliber, there are still many incidents of this utterly boring phase of hand passing throughout the games. At least back in the day the other team would have to win a battle in midfield before attempting to hand pass the life out of a game.

Genuine football people are really becoming disillusioned and I don't know why people can't see that.

As for a solution, any rule changes would have to be tested in the league. The limit to hand passes would be difficult for the ref and I agree that it would only result in players becoming more adept at short foot passes. The stop clock to limit the amount of time a team has to shoot would be a god send for defensive teams.

The key is to stop the contraction of space by defensively minded teams (basically every teams nowadays) who play with nearly everyone behind the ball when the other team has it. I would suggest  once the other team crosses the halfway mark they are not allowed to pass back. Of course that encourages the attacking team to attack once across the line, but encourages the blanket. I would suggest a stop clock, but in reverse. From the kick out the defensive team has say 25 seconds to get a hand on the ball, otherwise a 45 meter free to their opponents. No more blanket and this may open up the space around the field. I don't think it is beyond the technology we have now. It should not be left to the referee. A simple digital countdown like they have in basketball. That would draw them out and perhaps add to the excitment.

This old argument comes up every year and I think it is media driven. This is a matter solely for those Counties who are struggling and for no one else. I would imagine they would have no truck with some form of B or C tier competition. There would be zero interest and one only has to look at the second tier hurling competitions to see how that would end up.

Even if Croke Park did throw a load of money and resources at it (unlikely), they can't force RTE, the print media to follow suit and give the games the attention they might deserve.

The real issue is the amateur ethos of our games and the primary rule that you play for the County you were born in. If we had a professional game where you could transfer between Counties, it might be reasonable to have a two, or three tier system, where better/more ambitious players could transfer.  Not that I am advocating that.

It is not justified to say to players in Leitrim or Antrim, you are now playing in a secondary competition by dint of your birth and you will suck it up.

I would draw a comparison with nations qualifying for the Euros and the World cup. Yes, the tournament itself is for qualifiers only, akin to the All Ireland quarter finals, but every nation starts with the same chance.  France will play San Marino etc, because there is an acceptance that every nation is sovereign and treated with equal status and an acknowledgement that players can only play for the Country they were born it.

You must give An Riocht serious credit for the way they have played the system here, obviously calling a number of games off to suit themselves and refixtures at times when most clubs have nothing to play for, its very smart work, Loughinisland should have seen what was coming and demanded the game be played earlier which would have put pressure on An Riocht. The situation should not have occurred in the first place, far too many games this year across the board have been called off or switched for silly reasons. Heavier fines and points deductions wouldn't be too long sorting the mess out.

Nobody in loughinisland is blaming An Riocht. They have done nothing wrong. The blame lies completely with the county board.

Any ejit with even an ounce of objective rational thinking could see we have been royally shafted here. We had four games postponed during the year and not once was that at our behest.  During the lull in the summer we contacted both the other teams and county board to try and get them played, but try as we might they could not be arranged, through no fault of ours. 

An Riocht asked for the original fixture to be postponed, which we have no issue with. I notice another poster suggested we should have made them play it. I  must remember not to knock on your door it we are looking a fixture re-fixed if there is a death in Loughinisland. When all is said and done , we were being told to play away from home (which we actually considered, until the fixtures were later rearranged and would have given An Riocht an advantage, as referred to a couple of posts back) against a team we were directly challenging for promotion. Bear in mind they had the privilege of playing us at their pitch and we were being denied the same right when we requested it. 

The County Board were simply more interested in trying to meet their dead lines and to hell with any sense of natural justice. It was a case of run along boys and take your oil. Our committee had to make the decision whether to play the match, or not take the field and lodge a protest. You can bet every pound you have in the bank that had we played it, the county board would have then simply said, 'move along nothing to be seen here.' and they would not have given a fiddlers. Now we at least can shine a light on their duplicity.

Their big issue was that all fixtures must be played by the cut off date. If this goes to the Ulster Council how do they explain that they were /are willing to fix one game in Division two after the cut off and two further games in division three. How exactly will they explain that does not set a precedent boggles the mind.

IMO this high lights all that is wrong with out leagues. Get them over and done with and who gives a hoot about any sense of fair play.

With regards to the mathematics. Kingdom have to play Darragh Cross. If they lost and our match the Kingdom was rearranged we had every thing to play for (subject to is beating Annaclone). In the event they beat Darragh Cross we could still have got promoted by playing An Riocht, but would have had to have beaten them by 16 points, which is very unlikely, but not  impossible.

DOWN

RGU Downpatrick -Russell Gaelic Union. The Man From God Knows where - Thomas Russell
Glenn John Martins
Newry Mitchels

Have I missed any? Down lads??

Not exactly Republican, but you could include Laitroim Fontenoys.

I'm interested in collating how many clubs in Ireland are named after Republican figures, particularly those from the 1916 and 1798 rebellions. Feel free to add your own county.

Armagh folk may want to correct me, or add more...

PATRICK PEARSE
Annaghmore

SEAN McDERMOTT
Maghery

ROBERT EMMET
Clonmore
Dorsey

MICHAEL DWYER
Keady

WOLFE TONE
Derrymacash

O'DONOVAN ROSSA
Mullabrack

THE O'RAHILLY
Collegeland

SEAN SOUTH
Clady

Not strictly a figure as such, but would Madden Raparees count. Guerrilla fighters back in the day.

It seems there is no doubt asking the refs to use the black card with any consistency is virtually impossible. The contributors to this thread have had constant repeats to look at and two days to ponder over the decisions. Yet even now there is no consensus over many of the decisions. What hope does a ref have in real time.

Being a neutral, I thought when it came down to it the ref did not ultimately change the outcome of the game and did not seem partisan to any particular team. I also think if this was our hurling brethren discussing the game, there would hardly be a word said about the referee and more talk about what a brilliant spectacle the game was.

The Hennelly decision was clearly the correct choice, Keegan's was a free in and at worse a yellow but there was no way it wasn't a black. Connolly's dive, protestations and the pressure got to Deegan. Cooper's black was correct but seemed a little harsh, it is a silly natural reaction to go for the leg. There was not much in Connolly and Vaughan coming together, the two yellows given were probably ok.
Small should have had a black before he should have got red although that was Coldrick's fault.
Connolly was then lucky not to pick up a second yellow for a cynical highish challenge.

Dublin may have had a second penalty for the barge on McMenamin but it would have been very harsh and there was similar down the under end when McMahon barged into Aidan O'Shea. No complaints with either of them issues.

There has been a lot of debate about the Keegan black card, but less about Cooper's. It was correct and was harsh, but I felt Cooper acted out in frustration. About 30 seconds before his black card he was flattened just after the Mayo goal. The umpire clearly saw it and seemed a little shocked. He was basically assaulted with his back to his attacker, who could clearly be seen driving his knee into him. On another day Cooper might have been carried off. The ref did feck all about it and a minute later he sent Copper to the line.

Players sometimes have a tendency to overreact, seek revenge, or foul, after they themselves have been wronged. I would imagine Cooper had reason to feel very aggrieved.

RTE and others must have watched a different game than me if they thought that scrappy bad tempered contest was incredible. Dublin won because of a better bench and a management team that made less mistakes.

Mayo when they get over this disappointment will know they will be there or thereabouts again next year. Dublins consistency and success is to be admired these last six years however they fall over the line in All Ireland finals without ever impressing.

Some fellas are hard to please. It was scrappy and bad tempered no doubt, but after watching a lot of pedestrian games this year full of lateral hand passing and almost non existence tackles it was great to watch two teams go hell for leather. Some of the shooting and passing was a bit wayward but it was always exciting.

Joe Brolly comes out with some nonsense some times, but he wrote last week that Dublin should put Connolly into full forward, because Keegan's fouling would be exposed, whereas he gets away with a lot more further out without conceding a score. It may have been the keeper's fault for Keegan's black card, but it was notable that Connolly had briefly changed to full forward. Pundits seemed to think Keegan had to pull him down to stop certain goal, but I thought there were at least two Mayo defenders closing in. More a case of Keegan doing what came naturally, but being exposed when it was so close to goal.

I wonder is this a generational thing. Perhaps those playing now enjoy the way the game is played and are happy as things are.

Those who played or watched football before the endless hand passes hanker after a lost game. It's hard to beat a midfielder pluck a ball out of the air, or a flying corner forward raise a crowd as he takes on his man. It has now got to the stage where the shoulder charge is basically redundant.

Like other posters I have also found myself turning over to watch something else, or read a newspaper whilst the match is on. I never thought it would reach that stage as in the past nothing was close to the football for me.

Can't really blame the managers as they must do what is required to win. If a  team of the nineties played in their style against a team of today they would be beat out the gate.

There is no point criticising managers, or teams for that matter. I think the only way to deal with it is rule change. The marks a waste of time. The hand pass is the problem. Perhaps we could introduce the rule applicable in sevens where you cannot pass the ball back into your own half  and limit hand passes to two in a row.

What's the big problem with kids wanting to win?
All this crap about stopping kids from winning is bull
Maybe that's what's wrong with this county we are happy just to play and accept defeat
If we had more of a winning mentality throughout this county we would not always except getting hammered out the door at senior and under 21 and a 5 point defeat at minors
Maybe I'm wrong but sure it's my opinion

I think you missed the point of the article. The suggestion is that teams winning at underage level should not be to the detriment to player development. I know there is a growing trait in schools etc to hand out medals to winners and losers to prevent hurting their feelings. Many would consider that is not exactly a great test for later life. That is not what is being suggested here. It is an article about individual development and instilling both the skills and developing the character to win.

There was a revealing report into underage development in ice hockey some years ago which spoke volumes about how development at underage level is so important. One year they looked at the birthdays of the all stars team and realised there was quite a majority who were born in the first half of the year. They looked back through the records and realised this was not an anomaly and was in fact the norm. Given such an anomaly they researched the matter and quickly concluded that those kids who were bigger and stronger at early underage level stood out in comparison to their team mates. Quite often that was because they were in fact nearly a year older as they were closer to the cut off date. All the resources and energy went into developing these "better" kids and the rest were allowed to wither on the vine, so to speak. Ice hockey quickly took measures to remedy the problem.

Most professional sports now realise the importance of individual development . Rugby is another example. Most early underage games are touch rugby to allow smaller/younger players to develop. In particular this has been a success in New Zealand where there was a disparity of size at underage level.

It's not about molly cuddling kids, it's about getting the best out of them.

Just a reminder that there were at least 4 Downpatrick men on the panel on Saturday.

That fact did not escape me, but I had referred to 'stars'. That is probably a little harsh on the present panel members but Downpatrick produced Conor and Gerard Deegan and Breen back in the nineties.  It is a quite a while since Downpatrick or Carryduff (Blaney etc) produced somewhat of that ilk.

I accept that other clubs are not producing player of top quality throughout the county, but we in East Down as a whole have been woefully inadequate in producing the players we once did. The 2010 team only had three East Down starters. I don't directly blame RGU at all and I have a high regard for the men running the club and the problems they have with soccer. Rather, I would would lament the general decline of standard in East Down.

It's a big part of the problem.The large population bases in the county arn't pulling their weight in terms of providing county standard players.Its not just downpatrick but also south belfast(Carryduff and Bredagh),but most alarmingly newry.

Is Downpatrick considered a big club in Down? It's the rural clubs that have provided the most talent; same as in most of Ulster.

Newry's funny in that it's divided between Down and Armagh. Bosco seem to produce good teams at underage but lose them at 18-21.

Don't know much about Bredagh and Carryduff - have these 2 clubs not gained big spike in players / members in the last few years and haven't hit senior yet?

Downpatrick is a strange club in that regard. When they do come to the fore they usually come very strong and then revert back to bottom of division one or division two almost as quickly. In the seventies they won a few championships then reverted back to division two for most of the eighties. In the early nineties they had a great team and should probably have won an Ulster. Since then they have spent a good deal of time in division two.

What I would say is that when Down was doing well in the early nineties they had the usual compliment from South Down, but had quite a number from Carryduff and Downpatrick. Of the starting fifteen in 91, five came from these two clubs and four in 94. We are not getting the stars from these clubs that we once were and whilst that is far from being the only problem in Down, it doesn't help.