Is University worth it?

[imtommygunn]

If you take IT as well and you look at how changeable it is - a degree studying a load of stuff now may be irrelevant in a year or two's time.

[thebigfella]

If you take IT as well and you look at how changeable it is - a degree studying a load of stuff now may be irrelevant in a year or two's time.

Sorry but the computer science and software engineering fundamentals haven't changed in decades. New technologies and applications of those fundamentals may come (not in a year or 2) and go but it's no different to having to learn or retrain.

Understanding Functional, Object-Oriented and Procedural Programming; testing techniques (don't get me started on Devs not writing tests); software design patterns; algorithm design; networking; OS's, encryption etc... are way more important than being able to cobble together a few applications in whatever javascript framework is flavour of the month.

[Milltown Row2]

Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation  degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation  was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .

You need the basics, bricklaying isn't just putting one brick on top of another, there are drawings, measurements, costings, dealing with customers, marketing your business, managing projects timing etc.. you also have your accounting to sort out too.

Now if you just want to be a labour for a brickie then you'll not need to have GCSE in math/English

milltown,
i disagree
some of the best brickies from my era hadn`t a CSE or o level
when i was a kid  schools taught woodwork, metal work etc and every kid had a chance to go to a training centre to get an apprenticeship
we now have shed loads of kids where this avenue is now closed off and left to rot
my brother is a fabulous eletrician who has no qualificationa and trust me he could buy and sell most of us

There is no other way to get an actual proper apprenticeship with out the basics, if not GCSE's then its essential skills at C grade level. To be a spark or a plummer you needed (back in the day) 2 GCSE's minimum and that is going back 40 years.

I'm a product of getting education via the apprenticeship scheme's I used that to then become a teacher of my trade for many years delivering the theory for that area.

I get that plenty of people (my 2 brothers) left with nowt and got a trade in bricklaying, one left after I got him involved with training young lads at a centre I was at, now he's away completely from that and securing jobs for people with special needs, the other is still bricklaying went to Oz for a good few years and back home, so yes its not a requirement but had my brother not got the basics he'd have not got into Oz at the time as that was what the firm was looking for.

The place were I used to work we had a day a week were school kids came into the training centre and do a starter course in their 5th year, it could be Plumbing, bricklaying engineering joinery and electronics, so some schools those that were more vocational minded would be doing that.

I never pushed my kids into anything, allowed them to make that call, one went to tech doing hospitality and leisure one did criminology (which she hates) and the other doing Law now after changing after 1st year.

I'm totally for practical based learning be that trades or subjects that will lead to a job in that area. Law, Med, accountancy, teaching and so on

[armaghniac]

If you take IT as well and you look at how changeable it is - a degree studying a load of stuff now may be irrelevant in a year or two's time.

Sorry but the computer science and software engineering fundamentals haven't changed in decades. New technologies and applications of those fundamentals may come (not in a year or 2) and go but it's no different to having to learn or retrain.

Understanding Functional, Object-Oriented and Procedural Programming; testing techniques (don't get me started on Devs not writing tests); software design patterns; algorithm design; networking; OS's, encryption etc... are way more important than being able to cobble together a few applications in whatever javascript framework is flavour of the month.

Spot on. Just because you learned to drive in an Austin Allegro does not mean that you cannot drive a Tesla. Understanding that you have to test, the difference between an OS and an application etc is of lasting value, although you might have started programming on PC DOS 3.1 and are now working on Android 13. Modern tools will make it easier and improve productivity, but just as a workman may do more work with battery drill he still has to know what he is trying to do.

[tbrick18]

Some things have changed since I was at uni and some have stayed the same.

There were/are loads of people who go to uni because they are either too lazy or too handless to go into a trade where hard physical labour is required.
They don't know what to do, so decide to go to uni for 3-4 years to party and study some nothing degree that they have no hope of getting a job from.
Degrees like History, Geography or Women's Studies (that was actually a degree when I was there). They'll finish up working in shops, maybe civil service jobs as they have a generic degree.

There are others who go to uni as the only way to get into the profession they want to work in is a uni degree, doctor, scientist, IT, engineering.

Today though, some of those professions offer apprenticeships and have an end result of a degree and also a job. For me, this is absolutely the best avenue to go down rather than a 3 year uni degree, building up debt, and then start looking for a job. You learn as you earn and finish up with the qualification anyway. You perhaps lose out a little on the social aspect, but I think that has changed since I've been at uni anwyay. When I was there we went out every night, I don't think that happens any more. Perhaps finance is the issue, but attitudes to going out have changed I feel.

Another thing to consider now is the change over the years in how well tradespeople get paid. With no disrespect intended, trades used to be for people who were not academically gifted. But like some people have said on here, some of the smartest most intelligent people I know have trades.
And almost exclusively, the people I know who have done best in life have come from a trade background.

I'll try to encourage my kids to go into work that they think they will enjoy, but also earn enough doing so that they can keep themselves and family.
With the cost of living, difficult to advise what jobs those might be.

One of my daughters (17) works in an outdoor activity centre, zip lines that sort of craic. She loves it and wants to do a degree in instructing outdoor pursuits. I think she's mad.
But we spoken to a few people, and seems like its a bit of a niche market and there can be a lot of money in it. But it's also possible to get the qualifications without going to uni. Places like New Zealand and parts of America, or the Ski resorts in Europe can't get enough of these people so I can see the attraction of living that life.
Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but I think it would be great for 10 years until she grows up a bit, or has a family then it just isnt feasible any more. But what do I know....at least in my 17 year olds eyes.

So to answer the question is University worth it, I think it depends on what you want to do as a profession and where you're priorities are in terms of earnings.

[TabClear]

Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation  degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation  was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .

I couldn't agree more. GCSE Maths and the weight given to it is a sham. Virtually all of it is entirely redundant to the vast majority of people. Much of it is redundant to everyone. Who the hell needs to know highest common factors?
Like a lot of things in education, traditionalist, classist bullshit.

See I would totally disagree with this. In my view Maths is the one thing that is needed across the board by everyone, whether household budgeting, understanding a loan, working out angles for a roof, getting ratios right for a cement mix etc.

We had a former client who could barely read or write but was a sharp as a tack on numbers, engineering plans etc. He set up his own manufacturing business when he left school and sold it for over £20m a few years ago

[J70]

Some things have changed since I was at uni and some have stayed the same.

There were/are loads of people who go to uni because they are either too lazy or too handless to go into a trade where hard physical labour is required.
They don't know what to do, so decide to go to uni for 3-4 years to party and study some nothing degree that they have no hope of getting a job from.
Degrees like History, Geography or Women's Studies (that was actually a degree when I was there). They'll finish up working in shops, maybe civil service jobs as they have a generic degree.

There are others who go to uni as the only way to get into the profession they want to work in is a uni degree, doctor, scientist, IT, engineering.

Today though, some of those professions offer apprenticeships and have an end result of a degree and also a job. For me, this is absolutely the best avenue to go down rather than a 3 year uni degree, building up debt, and then start looking for a job. You learn as you earn and finish up with the qualification anyway. You perhaps lose out a little on the social aspect, but I think that has changed since I've been at uni anwyay. When I was there we went out every night, I don't think that happens any more. Perhaps finance is the issue, but attitudes to going out have changed I feel.

Another thing to consider now is the change over the years in how well tradespeople get paid. With no disrespect intended, trades used to be for people who were not academically gifted. But like some people have said on here, some of the smartest most intelligent people I know have trades.
And almost exclusively, the people I know who have done best in life have come from a trade background.

I'll try to encourage my kids to go into work that they think they will enjoy, but also earn enough doing so that they can keep themselves and family.
With the cost of living, difficult to advise what jobs those might be.

One of my daughters (17) works in an outdoor activity centre, zip lines that sort of craic. She loves it and wants to do a degree in instructing outdoor pursuits. I think she's mad.
But we spoken to a few people, and seems like its a bit of a niche market and there can be a lot of money in it. But it's also possible to get the qualifications without going to uni. Places like New Zealand and parts of America, or the Ski resorts in Europe can't get enough of these people so I can see the attraction of living that life.
Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but I think it would be great for 10 years until she grows up a bit, or has a family then it just isnt feasible any more. But what do I know....at least in my 17 year olds eyes.

So to answer the question is University worth it, I think it depends on what you want to do as a profession and where you're priorities are in terms of earnings.

Very narrow point, but in the US at least, a massive part of the issue with resort towns, including ski resorts, is housing. All the housing has been bought up by wealthy out-of-towners and the short term rental market. Places like Jackson Hole and the Colorado towns find it hard to get service workers, whether for restaurants, cleaning or even working the ski lifts, because if you are not lucky enough to find an employer who offers you a bunk as part of your salary, you either live in your car or you try to find a spot an hour or two away. Its even happening in the Catskills in NY, and they're not even on the same planet as somewhere like Aspen or Jackson.

[naka]

Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation  degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation  was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .

I couldn't agree more. GCSE Maths and the weight given to it is a sham. Virtually all of it is entirely redundant to the vast majority of people. Much of it is redundant to everyone. Who the hell needs to know highest common factors?
Like a lot of things in education, traditionalist, classist bullshit.

See I would totally disagree with this. In my view Maths is the one thing that is needed across the board by everyone, whether household budgeting, understanding a loan, working out angles for a roof, getting ratios right for a cement mix etc.

We had a former client who could barely read or write but was a sharp as a tack on numbers, engineering plans etc. He set up his own manufacturing business when he left school and sold it for over £20m a few years ago

A certain level of numeracy is a good tool to have in life.

That is not the same thing as having to pass GCSE Maths to be a brick layer or Art teacher.

agree totally
TBF Home economics, managing finances would be a proper course for kids at school .

[NAG1]

Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation  degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation  was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .

I couldn't agree more. GCSE Maths and the weight given to it is a sham. Virtually all of it is entirely redundant to the vast majority of people. Much of it is redundant to everyone. Who the hell needs to know highest common factors?
Like a lot of things in education, traditionalist, classist bullshit.

See I would totally disagree with this. In my view Maths is the one thing that is needed across the board by everyone, whether household budgeting, understanding a loan, working out angles for a roof, getting ratios right for a cement mix etc.

We had a former client who could barely read or write but was a sharp as a tack on numbers, engineering plans etc. He set up his own manufacturing business when he left school and sold it for over £20m a few years ago

A certain level of numeracy is a good tool to have in life.

That is not the same thing as having to pass GCSE Maths to be a brick layer or Art teacher.

agree totally
TBF Home economics, managing finances would be a proper course for kids at school .

I kinda think Maths is going to play a large part in this 

[TabClear]

Nobody wants maths banned.

It's just that GCSE Maths shouldn't prohibit people from pursuing career choices that have fcuk all to do with GCSE Maths.

Ah gothcha, might have misunderstood your original post. Agree with that. Maths should be mandatory on the curriculum but a pass in GCSE maths should not be a prerequisite for  jobs where it is irrelevant.

[johnnycool]

Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation  degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation  was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .

I couldn't agree more. GCSE Maths and the weight given to it is a sham. Virtually all of it is entirely redundant to the vast majority of people. Much of it is redundant to everyone. Who the hell needs to know highest common factors?
Like a lot of things in education, traditionalist, classist bullshit.

See I would totally disagree with this. In my view Maths is the one thing that is needed across the board by everyone, whether household budgeting, understanding a loan, working out angles for a roof, getting ratios right for a cement mix etc.

We had a former client who could barely read or write but was a sharp as a tack on numbers, engineering plans etc. He set up his own manufacturing business when he left school and sold it for over £20m a few years ago

Most builders use Pythagoras theorem day and daily and don't know it..

Maths is a fundamental to any engineering degree including software and is certainly not a sham degree.

There are lots of people doing degrees in the various humanities and will end up in Job recruitment agencies or the Civil service were your degree is perceived as a level of intelligence even if the subject matter is irrelevant in the final profession.

I've met so many lads (and ladies) with brains to burn, but the social skills of a gnat which really holds them back.

The person who can sell themselves will always get by even if they do bullshit a bit.

[Milltown Row2]

Fake it till ya make it!

[Eamonnca1]

Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation  degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation  was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .

I couldn't agree more. GCSE Maths and the weight given to it is a sham. Virtually all of it is entirely redundant to the vast majority of people. Much of it is redundant to everyone. Who the hell needs to know highest common factors?
Like a lot of things in education, traditionalist, classist bullshit.

I'll never forget the amount of time we spent in primary school learning mental arithmetic. "You'll need this if you work in a shop" I was told, by teachers who still had memories of a shop being a small room where someone handed you stuff from the shelves behind them and told you how much you owe after calculating it mentally. I almost never use mental arithmetic these days, for anything.

The reading and writing though, I'm glad we spent a lot of time on that. It seems to have aged well, and I get irritated by the lack of intelligible grammar that I see people broadcasting online. There are times when I get text messages from people that I can barely understand because of the lack of complete sentences.

[Rois]

One of my daughters (17) works in an outdoor activity centre, zip lines that sort of craic. She loves it and wants to do a degree in instructing outdoor pursuits. I think she's mad.
But we spoken to a few people, and seems like its a bit of a niche market and there can be a lot of money in it. But it's also possible to get the qualifications without going to uni. Places like New Zealand and parts of America, or the Ski resorts in Europe can't get enough of these people so I can see the attraction of living that life.
Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but I think it would be great for 10 years until she grows up a bit, or has a family then it just isnt feasible any more. But what do I know....at least in my 17 year olds eyes.

I'm in Chamonix at the minute - a 9-month resort, ski and then so many spring/summer/autumn activities, like rafting, hiking, climbing, cycling, mountain biking, parapenting etc. You could definitely have a medium to long term career here or in similar resorts in Europe (or NZ as you said).
I loved that sort of stuff too, did voluntary work in outdoor pursuits centre before A Levels, did summer seasons in Switzerland during uni. I regret not taking time out before my career started to do more. Now I just come here on holidays and plan for retirement here 😁

[thebigfella]

Was at uni in the 80s and luckily did a vocation  degree which has led me to having a good life but times have changed .
Daughter graduation  was at start of summer and the reality struck that uni is now a money making exercise .
60% we're foreign nationals who queens are simply extracting cash from.
A lot to be said for apprenticeships but even that's a mess , why does a kid need English and maths gcse to become a brick layer or joiner .

I couldn't agree more. GCSE Maths and the weight given to it is a sham. Virtually all of it is entirely redundant to the vast majority of people. Much of it is redundant to everyone. Who the hell needs to know highest common factors?
Like a lot of things in education, traditionalist, classist bullshit.

I'll never forget the amount of time we spent in primary school learning mental arithmetic. "You'll need this if you work in a shop" I was told, by teachers who still had memories of a shop being a small room where someone handed you stuff from the shelves behind them and told you how much you owe after calculating it mentally. I almost never use mental arithmetic these days, for anything.

The reading and writing though, I'm glad we spent a lot of time on that. It seems to have aged well, and I get irritated by the lack of intelligible grammar that I see people broadcasting online. There are times when I get text messages from people that I can barely understand because of the lack of complete sentences.

Sure that happened   

When's the last time you calculate time or check your change when paying? You're using the skills and techniques almost every day without realising. It also promotes development of problem solving skills and recall. Such spoofing.