All Ireland Football semi-final;Mayo v Kerry,Sunday Aug 20

[Crete Boom]

According to Colm Parkinson, Mayo pushed up on Roscommon's kickouts but left a Ros player free to force the keeper to kick to him and knowing where the kickout was headed the mayo players closest to the free Ros player were ready to swarm him. Tactics now are far more refined but I'd say Mayo are doing plenty.

Mayo losing to Galway,needing extra time to beat Cork,Derry and replay to overcome Roscommon would suggest Rochford is struggling with his tactics. Kerry beat Galway,Cork comfortably in 70 minutes and would do the same against Derry,Roscommon if they played them.

Don't think how Mayo do against teams outside the top 2 or 3 has anything to do with tactics, it's more to do with their attitude. I don't see any evidence that they've been tactical poor in the past few years.

Good God Zulu, you cannot be serious!!
Remember Limerick 2014?
Horan matched Cafferkey with Donaghy  who outfielded him every time the ball was kicked in?
Not only did Horan fail to makes any changes to curb Donaghy's dominance but he set no one to mark Jamesy who went to toen on ballls bropken down by Donaghy. IIRC, Donaghy scored 2-7 that day.
The gruesome twosome got their P45s because they made a bulls of a job on the sideline in the first game against Dublin in 2015.The pair was later to claim one of the players left the notes prepared for the game behind him in the hotel and the players reared up on the poor, innocent managers because of this!
Rochford was getting a bollicking form all quarters up to last Sunday. He persisted in taking Andy Moran and Colm Boyle off around the 50 minute mark even though there was no obvious reason for doing so.
Okay, things went a thousand times better last Sunday but I believe that the players pressurised Rochford into making clearly necessary changes in tactics.
If any of the managers since O'Mahony got off the pot, had the tactical savvy of, say, Jim Gavin or Mickey Harte, the Mayo team would be up to its collective arse with Celtic crosses by now.

You have no appreciation for what managers have achieved do you? You call them every name under the sun, but you might remember before Horan took over, John O'Mahony (who is somehow spared your disdain) led us to a defeat to Longford.
Horan took over that Autumn and led us to 4 connacht titles in a row, 4 semi finals in a row and 2 finals. Do you think he might have earned some respect for that? Do you think maybe tactics played a part in those achievements?

Oh yes I have and I've said it here many times that Horan worked wonders with Mayo but here I was answering a straight question with a straight answer.
I know damn well how much of a mess O'Mahony made of things but I was talking of poor tactical decisions made by the present and recent managers, again, in response to a straight question. So, who did I call every name under the sun?  I mentioned the 'gruesome twosome', a term that was widely applied to them during their time in charge. Nothing new abut that. While I'm at it, I had plenty to say about O'Mahony when he was in charge and you went apeshit attacking everything I had to say. I did ask you one time to point one single instance where I was wrong in my assessment of O'Mahony's tactics and general management and I'm still awaiting your answer.
Horan got his match ups wrong in Limerick and all the plamás in the world won't hide the fact that Donaghy destroyed Cafferkey that day. What good Horan undoubtedly did for Mayo football should not be used as an excuse for allowing Donaghy to score 2-7 and end Mayo's chances for another year.
There's no need to be so fecking patronising about Horan's achievements either. I know what he won as well as you do. I wasn't dismissing his achievements when I mentioned Donaghy v Cafferkey either. One can't be used to excuse the other.
The disagreement between Noel and Pateen and the team after the semifinal in 2015 and the recriminations that followed are common knowledge to most Mayo people. The players felt they had the winning of that game the first day and they felt that sideline decisions let them down.
Again, I accept that Rochford has been getting a barrage of criticism since taking over and most of it is unjustified, (in my opinion) but that doesn't hide the fact that he has been criticised from many quarters for his substitutions and personnel switches during every game this year up to last Monday. That's not a personal opinion either.
I have given Zulu a number of examples where I felt poor tactics either lost games or made the winning of them much harder than necessary. Nothing personal intended where any of the managers were concerned.

You sure have anger management issues and maybe you should consider some other more sedentary pastime like floral arrangement or talking a dog for long walks or something like that.
In all seriousness, you spend more time criticising others posters' opinions than any other member of the board and generally you get your facts arseways.
Have a nice day!

From within the county, Lar?

Yup.

Rochford's been given a much softer ride than any of his predecessors going back to Mickey Moran. Of course, Mickey only lasted a year so he doesn't really count. Other than that, I can't think of any manager who didn't get treatment unless you're going back to John O'Mahony's first tour of duty in the late 'eighties.

If anything, the way Rochford is being talked about reminds me of the way people talked about Pat Holmes when he took over after Maughan in 1999/2000. Holmes was seen as Maughan's successor, in a way that Rochford hasn't been seen Horan's man - Horan's blessing would doom any prospective managerial candidate currently, allegedly - but there are echos of Holmes I in this Rochford Era. So far, anyway.

The best Mayo managers of the past 25 years are probably James Horan and John Maughan, and probably in that order. They are also two of most despised. What does that tell you about Mayo football?

Is Horan really despised in Mayo? I've only really seen good press of him on here from the Mayo fans.

A certain constitutency mainly populated by Gaa men & women more interested in the administration and control of Mayo Gaa would despise Horan but most think he was excellent. There is always the loud minority who spew hatred towards Horan, Aidan O'Shea , Liam McHale, Ciaran Mac, Peter Forde or anyone else who went against the so called traditional Mayo Gaa fíor Gael traditions liked having a fancy haircut , wear their socks up , coloured boots, wanting not to train on a car park etc...

[Mayo4Sam14]

Who's the ref for this?

Maurice deegan

[Mayo4Sam14]

All of that said lads, kerry is still kerry. '96 the only time we beat them in 60 years. Kerry wont fear us and i just cant see mayo pullin it off

[From the Bunker]

Is Horan really despised in Mayo? I've only really seen good press of him on here from the Mayo fans.

No! He is bitched about like Mickey Harte has been bitched about by Tyrone fans for the last 5 years. He brought Mayo so far. But not far enough. Just like Mickey the last 5 years! Some fans expect!

[criostlinn]

Who's the ref for this?

Maurice Deegan 

Maurice brought in to ensure the dream final. The only surprise is Dublin Joe or the St Judes man aren't reffing the other semi.But no doubt McColdrick will step up to the mark

[criostlinn]

Horan got his match ups wrong in Limerick and all the plamás in the world won't hide the fact that Donaghy destroyed Cafferkey that day. What good Horan undoubtedly did for Mayo football should not be used as an excuse for allowing Donaghy to score 2-7 and end Mayo's chances for another year.

Donaghy got one score in the drawn game one goal, JOD got 2-6.

This is the 2nd time today you said that Donaghy got 2-7.

Fair enough. It's just that JOD got most of his scores from breakdowns/ assists by Donaghy and I was writing in a hurry. Donaghy's goal was one of the softest I have seen at this level.. The ref was also responsible for making a bags of the game. Even Colm O'Rourke, his fellow-county man, said he gave an awful display and at the time he wrote this, Graham Reilly hadn't been given another intercounty game to ref. There were several factors that swung the game in Kerry's favour but Donaghy/O'Donaghue been were allowed a free hand throughout the game and that was an issue that Horan could have done something about.

Just out of interest Lar what tactic would you have used that day. Now before answering just remember that Donaghy came in midfield  with about 10 minutes to go in the first game when his team were 2 points down. They subsequently ended up 5 points down before a last throw of the dice he wandered into full forward. He won two ball here. One over Kevin McLoughlin and the other on Cafferkey.
Also remember that on the same day Mayo started with a sweeper system because of James O Donoghue. This was probably only the second time this happened under Horan, the first been against London in his first championship match. This ended up with Mayo 5 points and a man down at half time before this was abandoned.
So Lar, what tactic would you have used that would have despite a dodgy referee, the 2 main players getting concussed and everything else that came with that day, have prevented Donaghy from scoring that deflected goal.

[cornetto]

In assessing mayo,kerry, roscommon didn't show up or were not let, you can't read too much from that.
kerry v galway I don't know, people say kerry were in 3rd gear
I wouldn't buy that totally,galway created a good 3or4 goal chances,following the same as Cork in munster final.
Kerry had the Donaghy goal ,but only created one other goal chance against a weak galway defence.
Mayo defence alot better than galway,if mayo can get enough ball to their forwards, I think it will be very close.

[seafoid]

This Mayo team is really mysterious. There were times in the past like say 1993 or 2004 where they clearly weren't good enough and didn't get anywhere near the zone. But this team can get within a point . Surely there is an extra 5% somewhere.   

[From the Bunker]

This Mayo team is really mysterious. There were times in the past like say 1993 or 2004 where they clearly weren't good enough and didn't get anywhere near the zone. But this team can get within a point . Surely there is an extra 5% somewhere.

Maybe they are using the extra 5% to get within a point?

[Lar Naparka]

Horan got his match ups wrong in Limerick and all the plamás in the world won't hide the fact that Donaghy destroyed Cafferkey that day. What good Horan undoubtedly did for Mayo football should not be used as an excuse for allowing Donaghy to score 2-7 and end Mayo's chances for another year.

Donaghy got one score in the drawn game one goal, JOD got 2-6.

This is the 2nd time today you said that Donaghy got 2-7.

Fair enough. It's just that JOD got most of his scores from breakdowns/ assists by Donaghy and I was writing in a hurry. Donaghy's goal was one of the softest I have seen at this level.. The ref was also responsible for making a bags of the game. Even Colm O'Rourke, his fellow-county man, said he gave an awful display and at the time he wrote this, Graham Reilly hadn't been given another intercounty game to ref. There were several factors that swung the game in Kerry's favour but Donaghy/O'Donaghue been were allowed a free hand throughout the game and that was an issue that Horan could have done something about.

Just out of interest Lar what tactic would you have used that day. Now before answering just remember that Donaghy came in midfield  with about 10 minutes to go in the first game when his team were 2 points down. They subsequently ended up 5 points down before a last throw of the dice he wandered into full forward. He won two ball here. One over Kevin McLoughlin and the other on Cafferkey.
Also remember that on the same day Mayo started with a sweeper system because of James O Donoghue. This was probably only the second time this happened under Horan, the first been against London in his first championship match. This ended up with Mayo 5 points and a man down at half time before this was abandoned.
So Lar, what tactic would you have used that would have despite a dodgy referee, the 2 main players getting concussed and everything else that came with that day, have prevented Donaghy from scoring that deflected goal.

I suppose it's always easy to be wise after the event and in any case, no amount of "if only..." will change anything either.
However, as you have already said, Donaghy had a profound influence on proceedings after he came on in the drawn game. Now, unless my memory is playing tricks (and not for thr the first time either) it was obvious that he'd be moved to FF for the replay. Maher was fit again and it was clear that he and Moran had the beating of whoever Mayo played against them. Donaghy was definitely going to start and the only logical place to put him was the full forward position.
As for the goal itself, I thought it was a case of waiting for an accident to happen. I know Graham Reilly made a bags of the reffing, where he got a few major calls wrong but it could also be said that Caff could have been blown up more for repeatedly fouling Donaghy.
I think Tom Cunnifee was assigned to double mark O'Donoghue in the drawn game but I don't think a sweeper of any sort was used in Limerick. Keith Higgins and Jamesy had one hell of a duel all through the game but with Donaghy outfielding Caff every time and without Cunniffe to lay the ball off to, it was inevitable that Keith had to attempt to block down a number of shots and one of them spilled into Donaghy's path. He was unchallenged as he gratefully took the chance offered to him and was able to lift his hoof and tap the ball in.
The Mayo fullback line was (still is?) liable to leak at least one goal per game for loose marking, eg Murphy in 2012 and Bernard Brogan the following year.
Anyhow, if I had to pick a reason for the damage Donaghy/ O'Donoughue were causing, I'd look to midfield. Barry Moran and Seamie were no match for Maher and Moran and, IMO, Mayo's problems started here. The Kerry midfielders and the likes of Buckley, Walsh and just about anyone who cared, were able time after time, to kick long, high ball dropping in front of the Mayo goal.
It was obvious that Kerry had worked on this in training and, even though, it was always going to be a danger for Mayo, no preparations had been made to prevent them having the free space and time to pick out Donagy and land the ball in on top of him.

[From the Bunker]

Small point Lar its Cormac Reilly not Graham Reilly!

[criostlinn]

Horan got his match ups wrong in Limerick and all the plamás in the world won't hide the fact that Donaghy destroyed Cafferkey that day. What good Horan undoubtedly did for Mayo football should not be used as an excuse for allowing Donaghy to score 2-7 and end Mayo's chances for another year.

Donaghy got one score in the drawn game one goal, JOD got 2-6.

This is the 2nd time today you said that Donaghy got 2-7.

Fair enough. It's just that JOD got most of his scores from breakdowns/ assists by Donaghy and I was writing in a hurry. Donaghy's goal was one of the softest I have seen at this level.. The ref was also responsible for making a bags of the game. Even Colm O'Rourke, his fellow-county man, said he gave an awful display and at the time he wrote this, Graham Reilly hadn't been given another intercounty game to ref. There were several factors that swung the game in Kerry's favour but Donaghy/O'Donaghue been were allowed a free hand throughout the game and that was an issue that Horan could have done something about.

Just out of interest Lar what tactic would you have used that day. Now before answering just remember that Donaghy came in midfield  with about 10 minutes to go in the first game when his team were 2 points down. They subsequently ended up 5 points down before a last throw of the dice he wandered into full forward. He won two ball here. One over Kevin McLoughlin and the other on Cafferkey.
Also remember that on the same day Mayo started with a sweeper system because of James O Donoghue. This was probably only the second time this happened under Horan, the first been against London in his first championship match. This ended up with Mayo 5 points and a man down at half time before this was abandoned.
So Lar, what tactic would you have used that would have despite a dodgy referee, the 2 main players getting concussed and everything else that came with that day, have prevented Donaghy from scoring that deflected goal.

I suppose it's always easy to be wise after the event and in any case, no amount of "if only..." will change anything either.
However, as you have already said, Donaghy had a profound influence on proceedings after he came on in the drawn game. Now, unless my memory is playing tricks (and not for thr the first time either) it was obvious that he'd be moved to FF for the replay. Maher was fit again and it was clear that he and Moran had the beating of whoever Mayo played against them. Donaghy was definitely going to start and the only logical place to put him was the full forward position.
As for the goal itself, I thought it was a case of waiting for an accident to happen. I know Graham Reilly made a bags of the reffing, where he got a few major calls wrong but it could also be said that Caff could have been blown up more for repeatedly fouling Donaghy.
I think Tom Cunnifee was assigned to double mark O'Donoghue in the drawn game but I don't think a sweeper of any sort was used in Limerick. Keith Higgins and Jamesy had one hell of a duel all through the game but with Donaghy outfielding Caff every time and without Cunniffe to lay the ball off to, it was inevitable that Keith had to attempt to block down a number of shots and one of them spilled into Donaghy's path. He was unchallenged as he gratefully took the chance offered to him and was able to lift his hoof and tap the ball in.
The Mayo fullback line was (still is?) liable to leak at least one goal per game for loose marking, eg Murphy in 2012 and Bernard Brogan the following year.
Anyhow, if I had to pick a reason for the damage Donaghy/ O'Donoughue were causing, I'd look to midfield. Barry Moran and Seamie were no match for Maher and Moran and, IMO, Mayo's problems started here. The Kerry midfielders and the likes of Buckley, Walsh and just about anyone who cared, were able time after time, to kick long, high ball dropping in front of the Mayo goal.
It was obvious that Kerry had worked on this in training and, even though, it was always going to be a danger for Mayo, no preparations had been made to prevent them having the free space and time to pick out Donagy and land the ball in on top of him.

Ok. So originally Horan's mistake was pairing Cafferkey with Donaghy. Now it's midfield. 
When you say no preparations had been made to prevent them having free space and time to pick out Donaghy, you couldn't be further from the truth. This was always Horan's mantra to try and prevent decent ball coming in. After the 2012 final it was the men out the pitch and not the full back line who received the criticism from Horan for Donegals goals. If players didn't do it on the day, so be it, but to blame management for this is just silly.
Yes Mayo were prone to leaking goals but they also put up good scores as well. When you play without a sweeper you run the risk of this and if you start pulling a forward out of the much maligned Mayo forward line to start sweeping well you have to think of the effect all over the pitch
As regards Ger Cafferkey, you'd swear he was just some chump that Horan picked from the stand to mark Donaghy. Cafferkey was an All Star in 2012 and probably played even better in 2013. In the 2011 semi final Donaghy didn't get a sniff of him.
Cafferkey was royally shafted by Reilly in Limerck and this is the reason Donaghy had such an effect on the game.
So Lar,  back to the question, what would you have done that wouldn't be considered a poor tactical decision

[Lar Naparka]

Horan got his match ups wrong in Limerick and all the plamás in the world won't hide the fact that Donaghy destroyed Cafferkey that day. What good Horan undoubtedly did for Mayo football should not be used as an excuse for allowing Donaghy to score 2-7 and end Mayo's chances for another year.

Donaghy got one score in the drawn game one goal, JOD got 2-6.

This is the 2nd time today you said that Donaghy got 2-7.

Fair enough. It's just that JOD got most of his scores from breakdowns/ assists by Donaghy and I was writing in a hurry. Donaghy's goal was one of the softest I have seen at this level.. The ref was also responsible for making a bags of the game. Even Colm O'Rourke, his fellow-county man, said he gave an awful display and at the time he wrote this, Graham Reilly hadn't been given another intercounty game to ref. There were several factors that swung the game in Kerry's favour but Donaghy/O'Donaghue been were allowed a free hand throughout the game and that was an issue that Horan could have done something about.

Just out of interest Lar what tactic would you have used that day. Now before answering just remember that Donaghy came in midfield  with about 10 minutes to go in the first game when his team were 2 points down. They subsequently ended up 5 points down before a last throw of the dice he wandered into full forward. He won two ball here. One over Kevin McLoughlin and the other on Cafferkey.
Also remember that on the same day Mayo started with a sweeper system because of James O Donoghue. This was probably only the second time this happened under Horan, the first been against London in his first championship match. This ended up with Mayo 5 points and a man down at half time before this was abandoned.
So Lar, what tactic would you have used that would have despite a dodgy referee, the 2 main players getting concussed and everything else that came with that day, have prevented Donaghy from scoring that deflected goal.

Ok. So originally Horan's mistake was pairing Cafferkey with Donaghy. Now it's midfield. 

No it isn't.
That's another issue; a contributory factor okay as it made Donaghy's job much easier. My point is and will remain that Caff was unable to compete with Donaghy in the air but nothing was done about this. Actually, come to think of it, something was done around the 70 minute mark when Keane replaced Caff and, IMO anyway, he made  a better fist of it than Caff had done. He was tougher, thicker and fresher and Donaghy was undoubtedly tiring.

When you say no preparations had been made to prevent them having free space and time to pick out Donaghy, you couldn't be further from the truth.

Is that so? I went to Willie Joe's site and had a look at what the Irish Times had to say:
"But Kerry deserved the win. Their strategies had Mayo in constant difficulty and their outstanding strike force of Kieran Donaghy and James O'Donoghue were more capable of effortless-looking scores.

Mayo were cleaned out in the heart of it at centrefield. Barry Moran started this time but is one of five partners Séamus O'Shea has teamed up with in the middle during this championship. Kerry's David Moran was exceptional, as both he and Antony Maher ended up with a decisive advantage."

That tallies with my recollection and I have yet to find any person, bar you, who'd disagree.

"...................This was always Horan's mantra to try and prevent decent ball coming in. After the 2012 final it was the men out the pitch and not the full back line who received the criticism from Horan for Donegals goals. If players didn't do it on the day, so be it, but to blame management for this is just silly."

So, if the players don't/ can't do it on the day, the manager can't be expected to intervene in any way; he should just say, "so be it!!"
I'd like to think that's not what you intended to say but, as it is, it is incapable of any other meaning.

Yes Mayo were prone to leaking goals but they also put up good scores as well. When you play without a sweeper you run the risk of this and if you start pulling a forward out of the much maligned Mayo forward line to start sweeping well you have to think of the effect all over the pitch
What bearing has that on the topic we are discussing? Donaghy was left unmarked when the ball broke kindly for him and he nabbed a soft goal. Mayo could have bagged assloads of goals in other games and at other times but the one that Donaghy scored that day is the only one that's relevant here.

As regards Ger Cafferkey, you'd swear he was just some chump that Horan picked from the stand to mark Donaghy. Cafferkey was an All Star in 2012 and probably played even better in 2013. In the 2011 semi final Donaghy didn't get a sniff of him.
You can swear what you like and more power to you but what he did or did not do on other days is of no relevance here. I don't need to be told what Cafferkey won or what he has achieved either.
All I am discussing is what happened between him and Donaghy on that particular day in Limerick.

Cafferkey was royally shafted by Reilly in Limerck and this is the reason Donaghy had such an effect on the game.

Ah Jaysus come on!!
I don't recall Cormac Reilly outfielding Caff or anyone else for that matter. Yes, the ref had a dreadful game but he wasn't the cause of Donaghy out fetching Cafferkey at any time.

So Lar,  back to the question, what would you have done that wouldn't be considered a poor tactical decision.
What relevance has that question? What I might or might not have done didn't alter what was happening on the field.

[Real Talk]

Generally any Kerry team will beat Mayo.   Mayo for starters need to organise their team to (1) stop good ball getting in to any of the Kerrys forwards including Donaghy and (2) play a 'disciplined .. if that's possible' Lee Keegan tight in FRONT of Donaghy and change L K's role in the second half to a more positive attacking role.  That said Rochford and his management team will have to be smart and top of their game to get the win.    Discipline will be absolutely vital.

[mrhardyannual]

Generally any Kerry team will beat Mayo.   Mayo for starters need to organise their team to (1) stop good ball getting in to any of the Kerrys forwards including Donaghy and (2) play a 'disciplined .. if that's possible' Lee Keegan tight in FRONT of Donaghy and change L K's role in the second half to a more positive attacking role.  That said Rochford and his management team will have to be smart and top of their game to get the win.    Discipline will be absolutely vital.

Every team that has gone out to minimise/negate the opposition this season has ended up well beaten. If you think you're not good enough you probably aren't. No matter how little the opposition score you still have to outscore them. Kerry teams have frequently beaten Mayo teams but each successive team gets the chance to write their own history. Mayo had never beaten Galway in Tuam in championship until they did...and then it just became a redundant fact.

I don't know how good Mayo can be but I have no fear of Kerry so I hope we go out and give it a lash, back Kerry up and attack at every opportunity. The positivity or negativity of those who post here won't bother the Mayo team but optimists have more fun and, so, I expect to see the Green & Red in the All Ireland final . And I'm not bothered who the opposition will be either.