Would you be in favour of a second tier?

[imtommygunn]

To kind of counter that though. The best thing to happen hurling in the last number of years IMO has been the Joe McDonagh. It has a small set of teams who are very competitive with each other and there is good incentive to get out of it. The hurling at that kind of level was "calibrated" wrong initially and the gaps were far too big in the christy ring cup so it wasn't just yo-yoing it was hammer everyone one year and get hammered by everyone the next year. While the Joe McDonagh cup can mean a bit of yoyoing the teams need to be top of their game when they come back down otherwise they won't go back where they want to be. There isn't much between antrim, carlow, westmeath (except this year for whatever reason) and tbh bar a year or two there probably Laois. (remains to be seen where they go from now).

The Christy Ring cup is also now very competitive. The best teams coming out of it are competitive in the Joe McDonagh too. Next year will be very interesting to see how Kildare get on.

I used to agree in the two tier thing being rubbish but since the Joe McDonagh I now believe if it is done right then it can be a great thing.

The flip side is RTE hardly show any matches from lower tiers. The Joe McDonagh in particular is a competition where if you lose one game you could be in big trouble so there is rarely a less than full blooded match in it. It would have made great viewing and thank god for TG4 showing it.

[sid waddell]

To kind of counter that though. The best thing to happen hurling in the last number of years IMO has been the Joe McDonagh. It has a small set of teams who are very competitive with each other and there is good incentive to get out of it. The hurling at that kind of level was "calibrated" wrong initially and the gaps were far too big in the christy ring cup so it wasn't just yo-yoing it was hammer everyone one year and get hammered by everyone the next year. While the Joe McDonagh cup can mean a bit of yoyoing the teams need to be top of their game when they come back down otherwise they won't go back where they want to be. There isn't much between antrim, carlow, westmeath (except this year for whatever reason) and tbh bar a year or two there probably Laois. (remains to be seen where they go from now).

The Christy Ring cup is also now very competitive. The best teams coming out of it are competitive in the Joe McDonagh too. Next year will be very interesting to see how Kildare get on.

I used to agree in the two tier thing being rubbish but since the Joe McDonagh I now believe if it is done right then it can be a great thing.

The flip side is RTE hardly show any matches from lower tiers. The Joe McDonagh in particular is a competition where if you lose one game you could be in big trouble so there is rarely a less than full blooded match in it. It would have made great viewing and thank god for TG4 showing it.

The tiered system in hurling is probably alright for Donegal and Cavan and Armagh and teams like that who otherwise would have nothing at all to play for but I think it has been terrible for Offaly, Antrim and Laois - teams who at one point or another would have been genuinely competitive against top tier counties

And yes I know Laois beat Dublin last year, but I think that was down to Eddie Brennan managing them more than anything else, it wasn't down to the system improving them

Leinster has a problem in that there are four genuinely competitive counties in Kilkenny, Wexford, Galway and Dublin

Then there are a big group counties, who could all make up the numbers - Laois, Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow, or Antrim, if you're to still consider Antrim part of Leinster for hurling purposes, maybe Down or Kildare or Meath might aspire to join that group

Then you've the bizarre situation where Kerry would play in Leinster rather than Munster next year should they win the Joe McDonagh Cup this year

But all these teams are not good enough to compete with the four top tier Leinster counties on a regular basis, so they're trapped in yo-yo land

Laois might catch a break next year because Kerry or Antrim would probably finish below them in Leinster, it's being expanded to six teams, but at the same time, it would be hard to see Laois break into the top three, so they'll probably be trapped in a perennial fifth place out of six, or fourth at best, which is still a non-qualifying position

[sligoman2]

So I'm wondering if opinions have changed on this topic in the last year.  We had the two big upsets in the provincial finals followed by two absolute hammerings for those teams.  The more I think about this, the more I am on the side of a tier two competition, with continued participation in the provincial championship.

If your county wants to commit football suicide that's your problem but please don't drag the rest of us with you.

I'm not dragging anyone, I'm simply saying that a team like Sligo should continue to play in the Connacht championship and if they win (or get to the final) they play Tier 1.  If not, the go into Tier 2 where they should be competitive and the games would probably be more enjoyable to watch.  Cavan and Tipperary were hammered this past weekend and the games were not good promotion for the GAA, the League has become more enjoyable than the championship simply because the games are more competitive.  It may be football suicide but it might be less painful than a firing squad...

[armaghniac]

Camogie has tiers and the LGFA followed a similar strategy, with Fermanagh playing Wicklow in Junior this year. These counties are not going to topple Dublin off the senior championship.

[Rossfan]

At least in a Tier 2 there won't be any 5 in a row (I'm assuming that the winners are guaranteed T1 the following year?)

[imtommygunn]

Speaking from an antrim perspective I don't think it has been terrible at all since the Joe McDonagh. Before that I would fully agree. I also think Offaly have just been in decline for a long time. It is not as if they have declined since they got into the lower tiers - they were in decline when they got there and I am not even sure how long Offaly have been in these tiers - is it 2? If it is then they got relegated in their first year and now they can't win the christy ring. If that is the case then they would just have been taking hammerings from the top teams.

From an antrim perspective in the 80s we just had a great crop of players, our standards then dropped and continued to drop. This happened long before lower tiers to be honest. There were a few exceptions to that mind you - like Eddie Brennan in Laois Dinny Cahill was a saviour for us. Offaly had an exceptional crop too and it has just been downhill since then. (If you remember the Dublin game that was a Dinny Cahill year but I still maintain if I were a Dublin supporter I'd have been very annoyed with Dotsie O'Callaghan who decided to run round players because he could and never stuck the ball over the bar. I have never seen a game where one guy was capable of so much and did so little.)

The league is now much better for teams in that yo-yo position I think too. Basically antrim need the likes of westmeath, carlow and / or laois to be in there to have a chance of staying up and then if we can beat them we can get a few years learning. The same goes for either of them. I didn't realise on Leinster but that will help too.

The yo yo thing is valid but I just don't know what they do about that.

If too many teams are let into the top tier then the big advantage of the hugely competitive games you get at mcdonagh level goes away and it becomes like the ring used to be so if you let too many in at the top you create problems further down too.

[Milltown Row2]

To kind of counter that though. The best thing to happen hurling in the last number of years IMO has been the Joe McDonagh. It has a small set of teams who are very competitive with each other and there is good incentive to get out of it. The hurling at that kind of level was "calibrated" wrong initially and the gaps were far too big in the christy ring cup so it wasn't just yo-yoing it was hammer everyone one year and get hammered by everyone the next year. While the Joe McDonagh cup can mean a bit of yoyoing the teams need to be top of their game when they come back down otherwise they won't go back where they want to be. There isn't much between antrim, carlow, westmeath (except this year for whatever reason) and tbh bar a year or two there probably Laois. (remains to be seen where they go from now).

The Christy Ring cup is also now very competitive. The best teams coming out of it are competitive in the Joe McDonagh too. Next year will be very interesting to see how Kildare get on.

I used to agree in the two tier thing being rubbish but since the Joe McDonagh I now believe if it is done right then it can be a great thing.

The flip side is RTE hardly show any matches from lower tiers. The Joe McDonagh in particular is a competition where if you lose one game you could be in big trouble so there is rarely a less than full blooded match in it. It would have made great viewing and thank god for TG4 showing it.

The tiered system in hurling is probably alright for Donegal and Cavan and Armagh and teams like that who otherwise would have nothing at all to play for but I think it has been terrible for Offaly, Antrim and Laois - teams who at one point or another would have been genuinely competitive against top tier counties

And yes I know Laois beat Dublin last year, but I think that was down to Eddie Brennan managing them more than anything else, it wasn't down to the system improving them

Leinster has a problem in that there are four genuinely competitive counties in Kilkenny, Wexford, Galway and Dublin

Then there are a big group counties, who could all make up the numbers - Laois, Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow, or Antrim, if you're to still consider Antrim part of Leinster for hurling purposes, maybe Down or Kildare or Meath might aspire to join that group

Then you've the bizarre situation where Kerry would play in Leinster rather than Munster next year should they win the Joe McDonagh Cup this year

But all these teams are not good enough to compete with the four top tier Leinster counties on a regular basis, so they're trapped in yo-yo land

Laois might catch a break next year because Kerry or Antrim would probably finish below them in Leinster, it's being expanded to six teams, but at the same time, it would be hard to see Laois break into the top three, so they'll probably be trapped in a perennial fifth place out of six, or fourth at best, which is still a non-qualifying position

The tiered system works and even more so after the debacle at the weekend..

You've got to be competing with genuine title contenders, Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone, Galway, and Monaghan. These teams have shown that during the league they'll take points off each other, championship is different as we have seen, but the league will become so important if it decides which championship you play in. That'll surely focus the minds during the league.

Why it works for hurling is obvious, since the back door was introduced the bigger teams get a second bite at the cherry, they get a bonus of playing a team in a lower tier generally which reintroduces them back into championship.

Laois, Carlow, Kerry and Antrim are a level or two below the big teams, it would take a few seasons in 1b for these teams to get the level up a notch or two, so that when they meet a top tier team they'll have played them

Same for football, teams need to be competing in div 1/2 otherwise they'll get hammered. By all means play the provincial championship but if we get another fluke next year then the teams will get duffed again.

Not a fan of the super 8's just extending the championship further.

[five points]

Same for football, teams need to be competing in div 1/2 otherwise they'll get hammered. By all means play the provincial championship but if we get another fluke next year then the teams will get duffed again.

Yet Meath were in Div 1 this year and got utterly hammered in the Leinster final.

[sid waddell]

To kind of counter that though. The best thing to happen hurling in the last number of years IMO has been the Joe McDonagh. It has a small set of teams who are very competitive with each other and there is good incentive to get out of it. The hurling at that kind of level was "calibrated" wrong initially and the gaps were far too big in the christy ring cup so it wasn't just yo-yoing it was hammer everyone one year and get hammered by everyone the next year. While the Joe McDonagh cup can mean a bit of yoyoing the teams need to be top of their game when they come back down otherwise they won't go back where they want to be. There isn't much between antrim, carlow, westmeath (except this year for whatever reason) and tbh bar a year or two there probably Laois. (remains to be seen where they go from now).

The Christy Ring cup is also now very competitive. The best teams coming out of it are competitive in the Joe McDonagh too. Next year will be very interesting to see how Kildare get on.

I used to agree in the two tier thing being rubbish but since the Joe McDonagh I now believe if it is done right then it can be a great thing.

The flip side is RTE hardly show any matches from lower tiers. The Joe McDonagh in particular is a competition where if you lose one game you could be in big trouble so there is rarely a less than full blooded match in it. It would have made great viewing and thank god for TG4 showing it.

The tiered system in hurling is probably alright for Donegal and Cavan and Armagh and teams like that who otherwise would have nothing at all to play for but I think it has been terrible for Offaly, Antrim and Laois - teams who at one point or another would have been genuinely competitive against top tier counties

And yes I know Laois beat Dublin last year, but I think that was down to Eddie Brennan managing them more than anything else, it wasn't down to the system improving them

Leinster has a problem in that there are four genuinely competitive counties in Kilkenny, Wexford, Galway and Dublin

Then there are a big group counties, who could all make up the numbers - Laois, Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow, or Antrim, if you're to still consider Antrim part of Leinster for hurling purposes, maybe Down or Kildare or Meath might aspire to join that group

Then you've the bizarre situation where Kerry would play in Leinster rather than Munster next year should they win the Joe McDonagh Cup this year

But all these teams are not good enough to compete with the four top tier Leinster counties on a regular basis, so they're trapped in yo-yo land

Laois might catch a break next year because Kerry or Antrim would probably finish below them in Leinster, it's being expanded to six teams, but at the same time, it would be hard to see Laois break into the top three, so they'll probably be trapped in a perennial fifth place out of six, or fourth at best, which is still a non-qualifying position

The tiered system works and even more so after the debacle at the weekend..

You've got to be competing with genuine title contenders, Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone, Galway, and Monaghan. These teams have shown that during the league they'll take points off each other, championship is different as we have seen, but the league will become so important if it decides which championship you play in. That'll surely focus the minds during the league.

Why it works for hurling is obvious, since the back door was introduced the bigger teams get a second bite at the cherry, they get a bonus of playing a team in a lower tier generally which reintroduces them back into championship.

Laois, Carlow, Kerry and Antrim are a level or two below the big teams, it would take a few seasons in 1b for these teams to get the level up a notch or two, so that when they meet a top tier team they'll have played them

Same for football, teams need to be competing in div 1/2 otherwise they'll get hammered. By all means play the provincial championship but if we get another fluke next year then the teams will get duffed again.

Not a fan of the super 8's just extending the championship further.

But the league is a tiered system and it has amplified the gap between the strong and the weak

Obviously in a league there has to be some element of tiers, but Divisions 1 to 4 is too much

Instead of having one Division 1 with the usual suspects, if you had two equal 8 team Division 1 and Division 2 groups of 8 teams with two from each group qualifying for semi-finals, it would give a better spread of really competitive football for everybody

Division 1A might be
Dublin
Donegal
Tyrone
Meath
Kildare
Laois
Westmeath
Cork

Division 1B might be
Kerry
Mayo
Galway
Roscommon
Monaghan
Down
Armagh
Clare

In hurling the weaker counties have been pretty much cut out of playing better opposition in both league and championship, they can never make real progress

[Milltown Row2]

Same for football, teams need to be competing in div 1/2 otherwise they'll get hammered. By all means play the provincial championship but if we get another fluke next year then the teams will get duffed again.

Yet Meath were in Div 1 this year and got utterly hammered in the Leinster final.

And didn't win a game in the league. So hammered in the league also

[imtommygunn]

In hurling though when there's a big gap you get tanked. You look at your example Offaly - they were shipping some heavy beatings and were learning nothing. I have sadly watched some heavy beatings in the hurling too.

Football has started to become like it. The professionalism of the top seven or eight teams is on a different level to the rest. There are a lot of games no one is getting anything from any more.  Take an example- what would a division four county learn from playing Dublin?

Maybe two divisions together is ok but then the multiple trophies in hurling gives most counties something to aim for. That has just gone from the football. (That is not a give up btw it is an you earn your right to be in these competitions)

[Milltown Row2]

To kind of counter that though. The best thing to happen hurling in the last number of years IMO has been the Joe McDonagh. It has a small set of teams who are very competitive with each other and there is good incentive to get out of it. The hurling at that kind of level was "calibrated" wrong initially and the gaps were far too big in the christy ring cup so it wasn't just yo-yoing it was hammer everyone one year and get hammered by everyone the next year. While the Joe McDonagh cup can mean a bit of yoyoing the teams need to be top of their game when they come back down otherwise they won't go back where they want to be. There isn't much between antrim, carlow, westmeath (except this year for whatever reason) and tbh bar a year or two there probably Laois. (remains to be seen where they go from now).

The Christy Ring cup is also now very competitive. The best teams coming out of it are competitive in the Joe McDonagh too. Next year will be very interesting to see how Kildare get on.

I used to agree in the two tier thing being rubbish but since the Joe McDonagh I now believe if it is done right then it can be a great thing.

The flip side is RTE hardly show any matches from lower tiers. The Joe McDonagh in particular is a competition where if you lose one game you could be in big trouble so there is rarely a less than full blooded match in it. It would have made great viewing and thank god for TG4 showing it.

The tiered system in hurling is probably alright for Donegal and Cavan and Armagh and teams like that who otherwise would have nothing at all to play for but I think it has been terrible for Offaly, Antrim and Laois - teams who at one point or another would have been genuinely competitive against top tier counties

And yes I know Laois beat Dublin last year, but I think that was down to Eddie Brennan managing them more than anything else, it wasn't down to the system improving them

Leinster has a problem in that there are four genuinely competitive counties in Kilkenny, Wexford, Galway and Dublin

Then there are a big group counties, who could all make up the numbers - Laois, Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow, or Antrim, if you're to still consider Antrim part of Leinster for hurling purposes, maybe Down or Kildare or Meath might aspire to join that group

Then you've the bizarre situation where Kerry would play in Leinster rather than Munster next year should they win the Joe McDonagh Cup this year

But all these teams are not good enough to compete with the four top tier Leinster counties on a regular basis, so they're trapped in yo-yo land

Laois might catch a break next year because Kerry or Antrim would probably finish below them in Leinster, it's being expanded to six teams, but at the same time, it would be hard to see Laois break into the top three, so they'll probably be trapped in a perennial fifth place out of six, or fourth at best, which is still a non-qualifying position

The tiered system works and even more so after the debacle at the weekend..

You've got to be competing with genuine title contenders, Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone, Galway, and Monaghan. These teams have shown that during the league they'll take points off each other, championship is different as we have seen, but the league will become so important if it decides which championship you play in. That'll surely focus the minds during the league.

Why it works for hurling is obvious, since the back door was introduced the bigger teams get a second bite at the cherry, they get a bonus of playing a team in a lower tier generally which reintroduces them back into championship.

Laois, Carlow, Kerry and Antrim are a level or two below the big teams, it would take a few seasons in 1b for these teams to get the level up a notch or two, so that when they meet a top tier team they'll have played them

Same for football, teams need to be competing in div 1/2 otherwise they'll get hammered. By all means play the provincial championship but if we get another fluke next year then the teams will get duffed again.

Not a fan of the super 8's just extending the championship further.

But the league is a tiered system and it has amplified the gap between the strong and the weak

Obviously in a league there has to be some element of tiers, but Divisions 1 to 4 is too much

Instead of having one Division 1 with the usual suspects, if you had two equal 8 team Division 1 and Division 2 groups of 8 teams with two from each group qualifying for semi-finals, it would give a better spread of really competitive football for everybody

Division 1A might be
Dublin
Donegal
Tyrone
Meath
Kildare
Laois
Westmeath
Cork

Division 1B might be
Kerry
Mayo
Galway
Roscommon
Monaghan
Down
Armagh
Clare

In hurling the weaker counties have been pretty much cut out of playing better opposition in both league and championship, they can never make real progress

Yes amplified showing the difference, so why would you have teams that get that can't compete in the league pit themselves against the likes of Dublin Mayo?

As for Hurling, Laois Carlow and Kerry have made massive strides, still 15 points off the top teams, 8 to 10 points off the second bunch.  They along with ourselves will be yo-yo teams until we get our act together.

The breakthrough for any aspiring County team needs to be done at grassroots and a strategic plan required, which of course needs money, which Croke should cover, but like anything before you throw money at it you need a business plan, how's that money going to be spent, monitored and assessed throughout.

[BennyCake]

In hurling though when there's a big gap you get tanked. You look at your example Offaly - they were shipping some heavy beatings and were learning nothing. I have sadly watched some heavy beatings in the hurling too.

Football has started to become like it. The professionalism of the top seven or eight teams is on a different level to the rest. There are a lot of games no one is getting anything from any more.  Take an example- what would a division four county learn from playing Dublin?

Maybe two divisions together is ok but then the multiple trophies in hurling gives most counties something to aim for. That has just gone from the football. (That is not a give up btw it is an you earn your right to be in these competitions)

Division four?? What would a Division one team (Meath) learn from playing Dublin?!

[sid waddell]

In hurling though when there's a big gap you get tanked. You look at your example Offaly - they were shipping some heavy beatings and were learning nothing. I have sadly watched some heavy beatings in the hurling too.

Football has started to become like it. The professionalism of the top seven or eight teams is on a different level to the rest. There are a lot of games no one is getting anything from any more.  Take an example- what would a division four county learn from playing Dublin?

Maybe two divisions together is ok but then the multiple trophies in hurling gives most counties something to aim for. That has just gone from the football. (That is not a give up btw it is an you earn your right to be in these competitions)

Well Offaly weren't that bad until five or six years ago, even in 2010 they were able to draw with Galway and in 2013 they gave Kilkenny a right game in Leinster, sticking four goals past them

Even in 2018 they got within nine points of Kilkenny in Nowlan Park

Now hurling in Offaly might well be killed off effectively for good because Offaly hurlers are separated from any meaningful exposure to top level hurling, how can they improve, they're stuck in the mire

A Division 4 football team might not learn much from playing Dublin right now, but every year that the current league system is in place reinforces the gap between the strong and the weak and it reinforces that sense of professionalism v amateurism, so you end up with a hurling type scenario

The general point about a 16 team Division 1 and Division 2 is that it exposes more teams to a better standard of football on a regular basis, year after year, plus it acts as at least a slight check on the check on the top counties

Every year the current league system remains in place, it amplifies the gap - the gap between Division 1 and Divsion 4 is massive

The gap between Division 1A and Division 2A wouldn't be as much

Every year that a 16 team Division 1 would be in place, it would help to make things more competitive in general

Sligo or Offaly might play Cork or Down, or Tipperary or Derry - better teams - rather than being stuck in a vicious circle of Division 4 football with Waterford, Carlow and London which offers no real avenue to improve

They might have a realistic shot of getting promotion to Division 1

Armagh, for example, might have the opportunity to improve from playing the same teams as Dublin are playing, on a regular basis - and they might have a hope of staying up - as opposed to likely relegation next year, like Meath and Roscommon suffered when they found the jump from Division 2 was too much

This would help to expose them to the sort of teams they need to be playing to make an impact in the championship

Obviously on its own, this system is not enough, but it's one element of several in terms of evening things up

[Milltown Row2]

So Kerry playing Clare will do what for each team?