Tommy Walsh - Kerry

[DuffleKing]

Think what's going on here is wrong and lads choosing their words carefully but still getting the message across that they took performance enhancing drugs without actually saying it...We all know that's what you mean but stop yourself short of doing so. Unless you can back up this theory then it's wrong to suggest it, I've no doubt that the AFL has drugs in their game and i'd say all Sports have it to a certain degree but without the proof it's best to say nowt.

There may well be just a very valid reason why these 3 men have had bad injuries and some guys have suggested a few which are every bit as believable as yours for drug taking. I actually think the recreational drugs in our society is more of a problem than the performance enhancing ones...

I have said that there is a strong basis for believing there is systematic doping in the AFL. I have stopped short of saying the players are in on it, that we don't know. This is my take on the matter and I think I have been pragmatic in putting that take forward. There are some who think that there should be no discussion on the matter.

My broader point is that lads who have gone to the AFL have experienced injuries and ailments associated with steroid use, this would suggest that there seems to be a doping problem in the AFL, especially coupled with the Essendon scandal.

Whether you disagree or not, it is extremely foolish and naive to dismiss the notion.

The injuries you highlighted are caused by trauma or biomechanical weakness infinitely more often than they are by the use of performance enhancing steroids.

That doesn't fit your narrative quite as neatly as the other unsubstantiated 'theories'.

[Il Bomber Destro]

Think what's going on here is wrong and lads choosing their words carefully but still getting the message across that they took performance enhancing drugs without actually saying it...We all know that's what you mean but stop yourself short of doing so. Unless you can back up this theory then it's wrong to suggest it, I've no doubt that the AFL has drugs in their game and i'd say all Sports have it to a certain degree but without the proof it's best to say nowt.

There may well be just a very valid reason why these 3 men have had bad injuries and some guys have suggested a few which are every bit as believable as yours for drug taking. I actually think the recreational drugs in our society is more of a problem than the performance enhancing ones...

I have said that there is a strong basis for believing there is systematic doping in the AFL. I have stopped short of saying the players are in on it, that we don't know. This is my take on the matter and I think I have been pragmatic in putting that take forward. There are some who think that there should be no discussion on the matter.

My broader point is that lads who have gone to the AFL have experienced injuries and ailments associated with steroid use, this would suggest that there seems to be a doping problem in the AFL, especially coupled with the Essendon scandal.

Whether you disagree or not, it is extremely foolish and naive to dismiss the notion.

The injuries you highlighted are caused by trauma or biomechanical weakness infinitely more often than they are by the use of performance enhancing steroids.

That doesn't fit your narrative quite as neatly as the other unsubstantiated 'theories'.

Tearing muscles off the bone are strongly associated with the use of anabolic steroid use. Do you deny this? You look at sports where tearing muscle off the bone is more common place - weightlifting, rugby, AFL and NFL - all Sports blighted by the illegal use of anabolic steroids.

Of course that may not fit in nicely with your unsubstantiated narrative either.

[DuffleKing]

I haven't got a narrative. You certainly have.

Don't know how many times you've been asked now... Post links to studies that support what you claim as 'accepted'

[Il Bomber Destro]

I haven't got a narrative. You certainly have.

Don't know how many times you've been asked now... Post links to studies that support what you claim as 'accepted'

You certainly have a narrative to suppress the very plausible and logical argument I put across.

I think we need you to clarify the specific facts that I have put forward which you contend with.

[muppet]

In case it has not been mentioned,  there is a strong connection with muscle tearing off the bone in athletes who don't take steroids.

Why is it not a common injury in GAA?

High hamstring avulsions often result from a mechanism which is more associated in AFL...ie you can be legally pushed in the back when bending to pick up the ball..high force + flexed spine / extended hip = risk for the hamstring common tendon. Now lads obviously get pushed in back in GAA but it's done with fairly watery force compared to AFL where you are allowed to mill a lad out of it

Tearing muscles off the bone happens when the muscles become stronger than the attachment. Anabolic steroids are a big factor in making muscles this strong and if you look at the sports/activities where tearing muscles off the bone are more prevalent - rugby, weightlifting, NFL and AFL - then you might see a correlation between them and the amount of participants who test positive for anabolic steroids when playing those sports. It's more likely to happen to people with disproportionate muscle mass and it certainly should not be happening to youngsters who have only been professional sportsmen for a small number of years.

It's not really the mechanism that causes muscle to tear clean off the bone, it is more the strength of muscles become far more powerful than its attachment. Hamstring injuries are very common in GAA, players tearing the muscle off the bone are not, thankfully. Those type of injuries should certainly raise eyebrows.

I haven't read that paper describing that as the main risk factor, has it been published in a peer review journal, throw up the link if you have it.

Point well made.

There is a plethora of lads on here these days that make sweeping, sometimes vicious, allegations without the slightest bit of evidence. I am glad to see people calling out their research (or more often the lack of it) and looking for them to properly back up their claims.

[Jinxy]

Think what's going on here is wrong and lads choosing their words carefully but still getting the message across that they took performance enhancing drugs without actually saying it...We all know that's what you mean but stop yourself short of doing so. Unless you can back up this theory then it's wrong to suggest it, I've no doubt that the AFL has drugs in their game and i'd say all Sports have it to a certain degree but without the proof it's best to say nowt.

There may well be just a very valid reason why these 3 men have had bad injuries and some guys have suggested a few which are every bit as believable as yours for drug taking. I actually think the recreational drugs in our society is more of a problem than the performance enhancing ones...

I have said that there is a strong basis for believing there is systematic doping in the AFL. I have stopped short of saying the players are in on it, that we don't know. This is my take on the matter and I think I have been pragmatic in putting that take forward. There are some who think that there should be no discussion on the matter.

My broader point is that lads who have gone to the AFL have experienced injuries and ailments associated with steroid use, this would suggest that there seems to be a doping problem in the AFL, especially coupled with the Essendon scandal.

Whether you disagree or not, it is extremely foolish and naive to dismiss the notion.

The injuries you highlighted are caused by trauma or biomechanical weakness infinitely more often than they are by the use of performance enhancing steroids.

That doesn't fit your narrative quite as neatly as the other unsubstantiated 'theories'.

Tearing muscles off the bone are strongly associated with the use of anabolic steroid use. Do you deny this? You look at sports where tearing muscle off the bone is more common place - weightlifting, rugby, AFL and NFL - all Sports blighted by the illegal use of anabolic steroids.

Of course that may not fit in nicely with your unsubstantiated narrative either.

You've established that,
a) Lads who play a particular sport are more likely to get a particular type of injury,
and,
b) Lads who play a particular sport are more likely to use performance enhancing drugs.
I agree with both of those statements, however, you can't just link the two together and say 'b' causes 'a' without providing some supporting evidence.
I'm referring specifically to the injury side of things btw, not conditions like Addison's disease.

[Il Bomber Destro]

Think what's going on here is wrong and lads choosing their words carefully but still getting the message across that they took performance enhancing drugs without actually saying it...We all know that's what you mean but stop yourself short of doing so. Unless you can back up this theory then it's wrong to suggest it, I've no doubt that the AFL has drugs in their game and i'd say all Sports have it to a certain degree but without the proof it's best to say nowt.

There may well be just a very valid reason why these 3 men have had bad injuries and some guys have suggested a few which are every bit as believable as yours for drug taking. I actually think the recreational drugs in our society is more of a problem than the performance enhancing ones...

I have said that there is a strong basis for believing there is systematic doping in the AFL. I have stopped short of saying the players are in on it, that we don't know. This is my take on the matter and I think I have been pragmatic in putting that take forward. There are some who think that there should be no discussion on the matter.

My broader point is that lads who have gone to the AFL have experienced injuries and ailments associated with steroid use, this would suggest that there seems to be a doping problem in the AFL, especially coupled with the Essendon scandal.

Whether you disagree or not, it is extremely foolish and naive to dismiss the notion.

The injuries you highlighted are caused by trauma or biomechanical weakness infinitely more often than they are by the use of performance enhancing steroids.

That doesn't fit your narrative quite as neatly as the other unsubstantiated 'theories'.

Tearing muscles off the bone are strongly associated with the use of anabolic steroid use. Do you deny this? You look at sports where tearing muscle off the bone is more common place - weightlifting, rugby, AFL and NFL - all Sports blighted by the illegal use of anabolic steroids.

Of course that may not fit in nicely with your unsubstantiated narrative either.

You've established that,
a) Lads who play a particular sport are more likely to get a particular type of injury,
and,
b) Lads who play a particular sport are more likely to use performance enhancing drugs.
I agree with both of those statements, however, you can't just link the two together and say 'b' causes 'a' without providing some supporting evidence.
I'm referring specifically to the injury side of things btw, not conditions like Addison's disease.

Are you a firm believer in happy coincidence?

[From the Bunker]

I am not really interested in what they get up to in Aussie Rules! Makes little or no difference to GAA bar the minute trickle that venture down there. You may be right but you cannot be throwing accusations and innuendos with out hard facts.

[macdanger2]

In case it has not been mentioned,  there is a strong connection with muscle tearing off the bone in athletes who don't take steroids.

Why is it not a common injury in GAA?

High hamstring avulsions often result from a mechanism which is more associated in AFL...ie you can be legally pushed in the back when bending to pick up the ball..high force + flexed spine / extended hip = risk for the hamstring common tendon. Now lads obviously get pushed in back in GAA but it's done with fairly watery force compared to AFL where you are allowed to mill a lad out of it

Tearing muscles off the bone happens when the muscles become stronger than the attachment. Anabolic steroids are a big factor in making muscles this strong and if you look at the sports/activities where tearing muscles off the bone are more prevalent - rugby, weightlifting, NFL and AFL - then you might see a correlation between them and the amount of participants who test positive for anabolic steroids when playing those sports. It's more likely to happen to people with disproportionate muscle mass and it certainly should not be happening to youngsters who have only been professional sportsmen for a small number of years.

It's not really the mechanism that causes muscle to tear clean off the bone, it is more the strength of muscles become far more powerful than its attachment. Hamstring injuries are very common in GAA, players tearing the muscle off the bone are not, thankfully. Those type of injuries should certainly raise eyebrows.

I haven't read that paper describing that as the main risk factor, has it been published in a peer review journal, throw up the link if you have it.

Any sign of these links Bomber? 

[DuffleKing]

I think we need you to clarify the specific facts that I have put forward which you contend with.

Okay then....

Tearing the hamstring off the bone is an injury closely associated with steroids.

Where is this association credibly established?

Addison's disease is also closely linked with steroid abuse, which is what Marty Clarke suffers from.

Where is this link credibly established?

a sport with major doping problems having players receiving injuries which are highly uncommon and highly associated with steroid abuse would suggest that there is a major doping problem.

These injuries are not highly uncommon though. You may come up with a credible source for that claim while you're digging there


There's other nonsense in there from you but sure start with the basics there and see how you get on.

[Rossfan]

t you cannot be throwing accusations and innuendos with out hard facts.

Never stopped him before

[omaghjoe]

TBH lads this isnt one where you should wait around for someone to prove something. Whatever about anything else, lets concentrate on these two things: Apparently there is a lot of drug use in AFL? Alot of our guys seem to be coming back from that sport with broken bodies?

Even lets put the drugs us aside, perhaps the GAA should look into why this is the case?

[macdanger2]

You want the GAA to investigate injuries former GAA players pick up playing another sport??

[manfromdelmonte]

I'm looking forward to reading these studies.

[omaghjoe]

You want the GAA to investigate injuries former GAA players pick up playing another sport??

It would help give existing players and potential future stars a better picture of what they are getting into by partaking in that sport. You'll be waiting a while for the AFL to give themselves a bad name and put off potential players.