Tommy Walsh - Kerry

[omaghjoe]

I think we should maybe leave the outrage aside for a minute and drop the "none of our young lads would ever be involved in the like of that" attitude, and actually consider the possibility that what Bomber is saying might be correct.

Now I dont know much about the AFL or their doping culture but its a pro sport and we are all aware that chemical performance enhancement methods are used in pretty much every sport that they would be effective in so it would hardly be a surprise if it was the case for the AFL as well.

But if it is true and these lads are coming back with broken bodies, then maybe they should be having a word with the new recruits such as young Glass or McKenna as to what they are really getting themselves into.

[Il Bomber Destro]

As I have made clear from the outset, I have made no comment other than the injuries ailment suffered by GAA players while playing in the AFL have an extremely low occurrence in GAA. These injuries/ailments also have a much higher association withanabolic steroids. Couple this with the fact that there seems to be a systematic doping culture in AFL then you can draw logical conclusions.

How much the players are/were actually aware of this potential abuse is something I know nothing about and will not make comment on. It's more a comment explaining why such serious and uncommon sports  injuries may have occurred.

These types of injuries will always raise question marks.

[Dinny Breen]

The cynic in me agrees with Il Bomber Destro, he made the same point I believe about Paul O'Connell and I would have argued against, although I can see the point Ballinaman is making as well. The pressure on players to succeed even at amateur level is ridiculous, from Joe Brolly public questioning a player's manliness to social media abuse (including this forum), the AFL has a doping problem, rugby has a doping problem (currently 15 lower league (effectively amateur) Welsh players suspended). So is it that inconceivable that ex-professionals were doping and that current amateurs in the GAA are doping, we could all probably sit down and draw up examples of players that have bulked up pretty quickly over a short period of time, and you have to ask how did you do that? 

[Lucifer]

As I have made clear from the outset, I have made no comment other than the injuries ailment suffered by GAA players while playing in the AFL have an extremely low occurrence in GAA. These injuries/ailments also have a much higher association withanabolic steroids. Couple this with the fact that there seems to be a systematic doping culture in AFL then you can draw logical conclusions.

How much the players are/were actually aware of this potential abuse is something I know nothing about and will not make comment on. It's more a comment explaining why such serious and uncommon sports  injuries may have occurred.

These types of injuries will always raise question marks.

Your logical conclusion is entirely flawed because you are associating the incidence of an injury incurred in the AFL, with their prevalence in the GAA.

[sid waddell]

The cynic in me agrees with Il Bomber Destro, he made the same point I believe about Paul O'Connell and I would have argued against, although I can see the point Ballinaman is making as well. The pressure on players to succeed even at amateur level is ridiculous, from Joe Brolly public questioning a player's manliness to social media abuse (including this forum), the AFL has a doping problem, rugby has a doping problem (currently 15 lower league (effectively amateur) Welsh players suspended). So is it that inconceivable that ex-professionals were doping and that current amateurs in the GAA are doping, we could all probably sit down and draw up examples of players that have bulked up pretty quickly over a short period of time, and you have to ask how did you do that?

There have already been doping cases in the GAA.

[Ethan Tremblay]

Great discussion at the moment.  The problem with drugs in AFL has been well documented over this past year with Essendon made to pay big time for it.  The distinct nature of the AFL also breeds competitiveness akin to the NFL in that the best youth are constantly being drafted into teams and selection is constantly under threat year on year.  This is a game judged on the fine margins and as a result I think players would knowingly take PED's to stay/get to the top if they can. 

As for the 3 GAA players mentioned, whether or not they were in this mind-set who knows? After all they were up for the most scrutiny, why would a team flog a dead horse when an 18 year old with more natural potential for the game is coming onto the team?
In Dyas situation he is bogged down with injuries year on year with Armagh so him tearing the hamstring would be right up his street and I wouldn't read too much into it.   
Clarke being diagnosed with a disease associated with PED's is similar to a non-smoker being diagnosed with emphysema; most people can add 1 + 1 and make 2 when it suits!
As for Walsh who knows? Perhaps the constant physical stress placed on his body had taken its toll?

The rate the GAA is going, it wouldn't surprise me if more intercounty players start to go down this avenue of needing to get to the top by any means necessary!

[Il Bomber Destro]

As I have made clear from the outset, I have made no comment other than the injuries ailment suffered by GAA players while playing in the AFL have an extremely low occurrence in GAA. These injuries/ailments also have a much higher association withanabolic steroids. Couple this with the fact that there seems to be a systematic doping culture in AFL then you can draw logical conclusions.

How much the players are/were actually aware of this potential abuse is something I know nothing about and will not make comment on. It's more a comment explaining why such serious and uncommon sports  injuries may have occurred.

These types of injuries will always raise question marks.

Your logical conclusion is entirely flawed because you are associating the incidence of an injury incurred in the AFL, with their prevalence in the GAA.

No I'm associating the injuries with AFL. Dyas, Clarke and Walsh all suffered the injuries and ailments in their AFL career, concurrent with a doping scandal breaking out in that particular sport.

[Lucifer]

In case it has not been mentioned,  there is a strong connection with muscle tearing off the bone in athletes who don't take steroids.

Why is it not a common injury in GAA?

Another example of where you are trying to link an injury incurred in one sport, with the prevalence of that injury in a completely different sport.

I do not doubt there is a doping problem in AFL. However you have shown a correlation between 2 factors and are trying to create causation. There are a multitude of other factors involved here, which you seemingly ignore. For example, how prevalent is the injury itself in AFL?  Assuming you are correct that steroid use increases risk of this injury, by how much? Are players transferring from another sport, into a professional sport, with higher training loads and increased physicality, at a greater risk?

You have not created a logical conclusion. You have created speculation.

[Jinxy]

The average AFL recruit, at a similar age to Walsh, Dyas & Clarke would have had years of playing the game, which is played over a longer period, over a bigger pitch, with bigger hits and more running.
The Irish lads are going in (at least they used to) with a much lower training age, and are thrown in at the deep end from a physical perspective.
Brendan Murphy was rated a great prospect for the Sydney Swans but he was also badly affected by injuries in the end.
I get what Il Bomber Destro is saying here, but at the same time a much simpler and equally, if not more, likely cause of these injuries would be lads having to adapt to a training & playing load that their bodies can't handle, given that they're moving from an amateur environment in gaelic football to a professional environment in aussie rules.
Two completely different sports, with different physical demands.

[Lucifer]

The average AFL recruit, at a similar age to Walsh, Dyas & Clarke would have had years of playing the game, which is played over a longer period, over a bigger pitch, with bigger hits and more running.
The Irish lads are going in (at least they used to) with a much lower training age, and are thrown in at the deep end from a physical perspective.
Brendan Murphy was rated a great prospect for the Sydney Swans but he was also badly affected by injuries in the end.
I get what Il Bomber Destro is saying here, but at the same time a much simpler and equally, if not more, likely cause of these injuries would be lads having to adapt to a training & playing load that their bodies can't handle, given that they're moving from an amateur environment in gaelic football to a professional environment in aussie rules.
Two completely different sports, with different physical demands.

It is a good point Jinxy, and worth as much consideration as the sexier steroid angle

[illdecide]

Think what's going on here is wrong and lads choosing their words carefully but still getting the message across that they took performance enhancing drugs without actually saying it...We all know that's what you mean but stop yourself short of doing so. Unless you can back up this theory then it's wrong to suggest it, I've no doubt that the AFL has drugs in their game and i'd say all Sports have it to a certain degree but without the proof it's best to say nowt.

There may well be just a very valid reason why these 3 men have had bad injuries and some guys have suggested a few which are every bit as believable as yours for drug taking. I actually think the recreational drugs in our society is more of a problem than the performance enhancing ones...

[Il Bomber Destro]

Think what's going on here is wrong and lads choosing their words carefully but still getting the message across that they took performance enhancing drugs without actually saying it...We all know that's what you mean but stop yourself short of doing so. Unless you can back up this theory then it's wrong to suggest it, I've no doubt that the AFL has drugs in their game and i'd say all Sports have it to a certain degree but without the proof it's best to say nowt.

There may well be just a very valid reason why these 3 men have had bad injuries and some guys have suggested a few which are every bit as believable as yours for drug taking. I actually think the recreational drugs in our society is more of a problem than the performance enhancing ones...

I have said that there is a strong basis for believing there is systematic doping in the AFL. I have stopped short of saying the players are in on it, that we don't know. This is my take on the matter and I think I have been pragmatic in putting that take forward. There are some who think that there should be no discussion on the matter.

My broader point is that lads who have gone to the AFL have experienced injuries and ailments associated with steroid use, this would suggest that there seems to be a doping problem in the AFL, especially coupled with the Essendon scandal.

Whether you disagree or not, it is extremely foolish and naive to dismiss the notion.

[DuffleKing]

In case it has not been mentioned,  there is a strong connection with muscle tearing off the bone in athletes who don't take steroids.

Why is it not a common injury in GAA?

It's no less common than it is in the AFL

[DuffleKing]

In case it has not been mentioned,  there is a strong connection with muscle tearing off the bone in athletes who don't take steroids.

Why is it not a common injury in GAA?

High hamstring avulsions often result from a mechanism which is more associated in AFL...ie you can be legally pushed in the back when bending to pick up the ball..high force + flexed spine / extended hip = risk for the hamstring common tendon. Now lads obviously get pushed in back in GAA but it's done with fairly watery force compared to AFL where you are allowed to mill a lad out of it

Tearing muscles off the bone happens when the muscles become stronger than the attachment. Anabolic steroids are a big factor in making muscles this strong and if you look at the sports/activities where tearing muscles off the bone are more prevalent - rugby, weightlifting, NFL and AFL - then you might see a correlation between them and the amount of participants who test positive for anabolic steroids when playing those sports. It's more likely to happen to people with disproportionate muscle mass and it certainly should not be happening to youngsters who have only been professional sportsmen for a small number of years.

It's not really the mechanism that causes muscle to tear clean off the bone, it is more the strength of muscles become far more powerful than its attachment. Hamstring injuries are very common in GAA, players tearing the muscle off the bone are not, thankfully. Those type of injuries should certainly raise eyebrows.

Only one of dozens of explanations

[DuffleKing]

As I have made clear from the outset, I have made no comment other than the injuries ailment suffered by GAA players while playing in the AFL have an extremely low occurrence in GAA. These injuries/ailments also have a much higher association withanabolic steroids. Couple this with the fact that there seems to be a systematic doping culture in AFL then you can draw logical conclusions.

How much the players are/were actually aware of this potential abuse is something I know nothing about and will not make comment on. It's more a comment explaining why such serious and uncommon sports  injuries may have occurred.

These types of injuries will always raise question marks.

Can you post links to studies to support your various assertions?