Paul Kimmage interviews Sean Cavanagh

[APM]

I know this was nothing new, but the stuff on Mass and the Rosary for me is something that the Tyrone CB should be looking very strongly at.  Totally inappropriate given the message it sends out to those with other faiths and none, that have an interest in playing Gaelic Football.

Noticed an reference to this elsewhere, so took a quick look to see what the reaction was on this forum.

Frankly, I'm shocked - though not surprised - that this particular aspect of Cavanagh's book doesn't merit a thread of its own (or at least some comment from more than one or two individuals).

I mean, is no-one else astonished, even outraged, that a team manager could get away with imposing his personal religious leanings on an entire team, to the exclusion of those who may feel differently?

i read a lot of stuff about sledging and foul play etc, but there is at least some possible redress (referee) or comeback (retaliation) to those things, but what can someone on the Tyrone panel who doesn't agree say or do to this? Speak out and never play for the county again?

And all that's BEFORE you get to the context of sport and society in  NI.

Could you imagine the shitstorm if eg the Linfield manager required his players eg to take part in some sort of Orange Order parade, or British armed forces commemoration, or attend a Free Presbyterian service?

It would be roundly and publicly condemned, with the governing body clamping down immediately, and QUITE RIGHTLY too, imo. In fact, it's unthinkable. (And I say that as someone who pretty much despises Linfield, btw).

"GAA For All (Protestants need not apply)"

Those aren't accurate comparisons - I'd say an accurate comparison would be attending a church service, and the comparisons you've chosen are telling about you, but your general point is valid. (On a slight tangent though, weren't Irish league players forced to take part in a ceremony and have an anthem they don't recognise as theirs played as though it were recently??)

I don't see it as a big imposition at all, but nonetheless everyone should have their own free choice - I haven't seen any evidence yet that they didn't. If anyone went to MH and said, I'm not comfortable, do you really think they would have suffered repercussions re selection? I doubt it very much. It would seem noone involved had an issue (Unlike the Irish league example I mentioned earlier actually).

The majority of Irish catholics are brought up with the ritual of mass, when they have their own free choice they'll all attend weddings, funerals, mass at easter/christmas, for whatever reason. A mass before games in this context isn't a big deal. Irish catholicism isn't taken that seriously, its just a routine for many, and I think thats the context it needs to be taken in. its not forcing your religious views onto others, as it is being portrayed.

I think you missed the point there.
Most Irish catholics wouldn't have a major problem with it. But What about somebody who isn't catholic? It's a pretty big deal to anyone of any other religion (or no religion).  It could certainly be viewed as 'forcing' your catholic views onto non catholics.
Obviously, we don't know how much 'forcing' was done, but all managers want players to do things as a team. Therefore it's likely that everyone was strongly encouraged to go as a team!

I'm not missing the point. The players were all from a catholic background. The hypothetical situation you describe didn't occur. If it had, I'm sure it would have been dealt with in the proper manner. MH would of course have been aware of the situation and adjusted accordingly. He is there to build bonds and win matches, not convert people to catholicism.

At the end of the day, this was something willingly partaken in by a group of people comfortable with the environment they were in. What we now have is people outside that environment theorising about what took place, or could have took place, or how players probably weren't comfortable but weren't able to say anything....none of which I believe for a second.

And of course, it could be noted that if there was an issue the captain should surely be the person to bring that up with the management team at the time. Instead he sniped about it later, and hasn't chosen to point out that everyone seemed satisfied with the arrangement (if there'd been any murmurings you can bet he'd have written about them!)

You don't know that to be the case yet your saying others are theorising, surely you're just doing the same. I doubt very much that 30 odd twentysomethings in any Gaelic football squad are practicing Catholics and believe in God. Personally I'd be very annoyed in that was asked of me in a team setting and I think many younger players/fringe players etc. would feel they may not be able to raise their concerns. Harte is in a position of Tyrone GAA authority and a religious man himself, he shouldn't have mixed them together. It was totally out of order IMO.

There hasn't been the slightest murmurings of complaint from those who have ever partaken. Many of these have also left the panel now, so aren't restricted by the fear of MH that some posters would have you believe. So in the absence of a shred of evidence to the contrary, despite ample resources and time for such to be found, I think I'm entitled to form the opinion noone had an issue with it.

I agree completely that they are all very unlikey to be practicing catholics - the point the rest of the post made is that, when brought up as a catholic, you still partake in rituals when it suits - weddings, funerals, christmas, easter - without it costing you a thought. I think the same relevance should be placed on this ritual (i.e. not that much).

Good post which is very accurate.  Additionally, I doubt there are many top protestant forwards in Tyrone that we are missing out on.  I would be interested to see how many protestants are actually playing club football in Tyrone or any other of the counties in the North.

This attitude is a complete joke.  You need to wake up to yourself. 

Imagine the same conversation on the OWC forum.  "Sure what odds if Glentorinfield bring in Pastor James McConnell before the games for a prayer service.  There aren't too many Catholics playing in the Irish League and most of them play for Cliftonville anyway". This is what we call institutional sectarianism. 

What part of this don't you understand? It is not the players that you are currently missing out on in Tyrone - it is the long term perception of the GAA as an exclusively catholic organisation.  This applies as much to lapsed catholic families in Dublin, to protestants in the North, to Muslims in Ballyhaunis or to a catholics themselves that aren't comfortable with religion being brought into the changing room. 

It is also a concern that Mickey Harte's perception of the GAA is exclusively catholic, so much so, that he takes this approach. 

[Itchy]

I know this was nothing new, but the stuff on Mass and the Rosary for me is something that the Tyrone CB should be looking very strongly at.  Totally inappropriate given the message it sends out to those with other faiths and none, that have an interest in playing Gaelic Football.

Noticed an reference to this elsewhere, so took a quick look to see what the reaction was on this forum.

Frankly, I'm shocked - though not surprised - that this particular aspect of Cavanagh's book doesn't merit a thread of its own (or at least some comment from more than one or two individuals).

I mean, is no-one else astonished, even outraged, that a team manager could get away with imposing his personal religious leanings on an entire team, to the exclusion of those who may feel differently?

i read a lot of stuff about sledging and foul play etc, but there is at least some possible redress (referee) or comeback (retaliation) to those things, but what can someone on the Tyrone panel who doesn't agree say or do to this? Speak out and never play for the county again?

And all that's BEFORE you get to the context of sport and society in  NI.

Could you imagine the shitstorm if eg the Linfield manager required his players eg to take part in some sort of Orange Order parade, or British armed forces commemoration, or attend a Free Presbyterian service?

It would be roundly and publicly condemned, with the governing body clamping down immediately, and QUITE RIGHTLY too, imo. In fact, it's unthinkable. (And I say that as someone who pretty much despises Linfield, btw).

"GAA For All (Protestants need not apply)"

Those aren't accurate comparisons - I'd say an accurate comparison would be attending a church service, and the comparisons you've chosen are telling about you, but your general point is valid. (On a slight tangent though, weren't Irish league players forced to take part in a ceremony and have an anthem they don't recognise as theirs played as though it were recently??)

I don't see it as a big imposition at all, but nonetheless everyone should have their own free choice - I haven't seen any evidence yet that they didn't. If anyone went to MH and said, I'm not comfortable, do you really think they would have suffered repercussions re selection? I doubt it very much. It would seem noone involved had an issue (Unlike the Irish league example I mentioned earlier actually).

The majority of Irish catholics are brought up with the ritual of mass, when they have their own free choice they'll all attend weddings, funerals, mass at easter/christmas, for whatever reason. A mass before games in this context isn't a big deal. Irish catholicism isn't taken that seriously, its just a routine for many, and I think thats the context it needs to be taken in. its not forcing your religious views onto others, as it is being portrayed.

I think you missed the point there.
Most Irish catholics wouldn't have a major problem with it. But What about somebody who isn't catholic? It's a pretty big deal to anyone of any other religion (or no religion).  It could certainly be viewed as 'forcing' your catholic views onto non catholics.
Obviously, we don't know how much 'forcing' was done, but all managers want players to do things as a team. Therefore it's likely that everyone was strongly encouraged to go as a team!

I'm not missing the point. The players were all from a catholic background. The hypothetical situation you describe didn't occur. If it had, I'm sure it would have been dealt with in the proper manner. MH would of course have been aware of the situation and adjusted accordingly. He is there to build bonds and win matches, not convert people to catholicism.

At the end of the day, this was something willingly partaken in by a group of people comfortable with the environment they were in. What we now have is people outside that environment theorising about what took place, or could have took place, or how players probably weren't comfortable but weren't able to say anything....none of which I believe for a second.

And of course, it could be noted that if there was an issue the captain should surely be the person to bring that up with the management team at the time. Instead he sniped about it later, and hasn't chosen to point out that everyone seemed satisfied with the arrangement (if there'd been any murmurings you can bet he'd have written about them!)

You don't know that to be the case yet your saying others are theorising, surely you're just doing the same. I doubt very much that 30 odd twentysomethings in any Gaelic football squad are practicing Catholics and believe in God. Personally I'd be very annoyed in that was asked of me in a team setting and I think many younger players/fringe players etc. would feel they may not be able to raise their concerns. Harte is in a position of Tyrone GAA authority and a religious man himself, he shouldn't have mixed them together. It was totally out of order IMO.

There hasn't been the slightest murmurings of complaint from those who have ever partaken. Many of these have also left the panel now, so aren't restricted by the fear of MH that some posters would have you believe. So in the absence of a shred of evidence to the contrary, despite ample resources and time for such to be found, I think I'm entitled to form the opinion noone had an issue with it.

I agree completely that they are all very unlikey to be practicing catholics - the point the rest of the post made is that, when brought up as a catholic, you still partake in rituals when it suits - weddings, funerals, christmas, easter - without it costing you a thought. I think the same relevance should be placed on this ritual (i.e. not that much).

Good post which is very accurate.  Additionally, I doubt there are many top protestant forwards in Tyrone that we are missing out on.  I would be interested to see how many protestants are actually playing club football in Tyrone or any other of the counties in the North.

So protestants are a minority in GAA so it doesn't matter. Is it impossible for some of you to look at Mickey Harte with an open mind?

[trueblue1234]

It's all Sean's fault. FFS. Thuggery is Thuggery. f**k them out of the Championship if you're serious about cleaning up the game.

Aww here that's exactly what we don't do. Just deal with it as per the rules. There's nowhere in the rules where it says a team can be f**ked out of the championship due to a bad hit. If it was intentional then deal with it as per the rule book. Lets not start going off and doing things just because it made the media. That's been the problem so many times for the GAA in the past and makes a mockery of the rules.

[reddgnhand]

I know this was nothing new, but the stuff on Mass and the Rosary for me is something that the Tyrone CB should be looking very strongly at.  Totally inappropriate given the message it sends out to those with other faiths and none, that have an interest in playing Gaelic Football.

Noticed an reference to this elsewhere, so took a quick look to see what the reaction was on this forum.

Frankly, I'm shocked - though not surprised - that this particular aspect of Cavanagh's book doesn't merit a thread of its own (or at least some comment from more than one or two individuals).

I mean, is no-one else astonished, even outraged, that a team manager could get away with imposing his personal religious leanings on an entire team, to the exclusion of those who may feel differently?

i read a lot of stuff about sledging and foul play etc, but there is at least some possible redress (referee) or comeback (retaliation) to those things, but what can someone on the Tyrone panel who doesn't agree say or do to this? Speak out and never play for the county again?

And all that's BEFORE you get to the context of sport and society in  NI.

Could you imagine the shitstorm if eg the Linfield manager required his players eg to take part in some sort of Orange Order parade, or British armed forces commemoration, or attend a Free Presbyterian service?

It would be roundly and publicly condemned, with the governing body clamping down immediately, and QUITE RIGHTLY too, imo. In fact, it's unthinkable. (And I say that as someone who pretty much despises Linfield, btw).

"GAA For All (Protestants need not apply)"

Those aren't accurate comparisons - I'd say an accurate comparison would be attending a church service, and the comparisons you've chosen are telling about you, but your general point is valid. (On a slight tangent though, weren't Irish league players forced to take part in a ceremony and have an anthem they don't recognise as theirs played as though it were recently??)

I don't see it as a big imposition at all, but nonetheless everyone should have their own free choice - I haven't seen any evidence yet that they didn't. If anyone went to MH and said, I'm not comfortable, do you really think they would have suffered repercussions re selection? I doubt it very much. It would seem noone involved had an issue (Unlike the Irish league example I mentioned earlier actually).

The majority of Irish catholics are brought up with the ritual of mass, when they have their own free choice they'll all attend weddings, funerals, mass at easter/christmas, for whatever reason. A mass before games in this context isn't a big deal. Irish catholicism isn't taken that seriously, its just a routine for many, and I think thats the context it needs to be taken in. its not forcing your religious views onto others, as it is being portrayed.

I think you missed the point there.
Most Irish catholics wouldn't have a major problem with it. But What about somebody who isn't catholic? It's a pretty big deal to anyone of any other religion (or no religion).  It could certainly be viewed as 'forcing' your catholic views onto non catholics.
Obviously, we don't know how much 'forcing' was done, but all managers want players to do things as a team. Therefore it's likely that everyone was strongly encouraged to go as a team!

I'm not missing the point. The players were all from a catholic background. The hypothetical situation you describe didn't occur. If it had, I'm sure it would have been dealt with in the proper manner. MH would of course have been aware of the situation and adjusted accordingly. He is there to build bonds and win matches, not convert people to catholicism.

At the end of the day, this was something willingly partaken in by a group of people comfortable with the environment they were in. What we now have is people outside that environment theorising about what took place, or could have took place, or how players probably weren't comfortable but weren't able to say anything....none of which I believe for a second.

And of course, it could be noted that if there was an issue the captain should surely be the person to bring that up with the management team at the time. Instead he sniped about it later, and hasn't chosen to point out that everyone seemed satisfied with the arrangement (if there'd been any murmurings you can bet he'd have written about them!)

You don't know that to be the case yet your saying others are theorising, surely you're just doing the same. I doubt very much that 30 odd twentysomethings in any Gaelic football squad are practicing Catholics and believe in God. Personally I'd be very annoyed in that was asked of me in a team setting and I think many younger players/fringe players etc. would feel they may not be able to raise their concerns. Harte is in a position of Tyrone GAA authority and a religious man himself, he shouldn't have mixed them together. It was totally out of order IMO.

There hasn't been the slightest murmurings of complaint from those who have ever partaken. Many of these have also left the panel now, so aren't restricted by the fear of MH that some posters would have you believe. So in the absence of a shred of evidence to the contrary, despite ample resources and time for such to be found, I think I'm entitled to form the opinion noone had an issue with it.

I agree completely that they are all very unlikey to be practicing catholics - the point the rest of the post made is that, when brought up as a catholic, you still partake in rituals when it suits - weddings, funerals, christmas, easter - without it costing you a thought. I think the same relevance should be placed on this ritual (i.e. not that much).

Good post which is very accurate.  Additionally, I doubt there are many top protestant forwards in Tyrone that we are missing out on.  I would be interested to see how many protestants are actually playing club football in Tyrone or any other of the counties in the North.

So protestants are a minority in GAA so it doesn't matter. Is it impossible for some of you to look at Mickey Harte with an open mind?

I hate all that shite. I include the clubs annual mass, blessing of pitches etc. MH should keep his beliefs out of the changing room its got f**k all to do with football.

[Jinxy]

I was at the game. Cavanagh caught the ball was fouled (by no.9 I think) and fell. No.12 came in and fell on top of him with both knees. I don't know if was an accident or not. Only the player will know. Ref was looking straight at it. Didn't deem it worthy of a card etc. The ref in general had a poor game for both teams.
All Tyrone games are videoed. That will probably come out this week. Whether that sheds any light on the incident is anybodies guess.

Anyway that's exactly what happened.

Is there some genetic weakness in the lower legs of Tyrone men that causes them to do this?

[nrico2006]

I know this was nothing new, but the stuff on Mass and the Rosary for me is something that the Tyrone CB should be looking very strongly at.  Totally inappropriate given the message it sends out to those with other faiths and none, that have an interest in playing Gaelic Football.

Noticed an reference to this elsewhere, so took a quick look to see what the reaction was on this forum.

Frankly, I'm shocked - though not surprised - that this particular aspect of Cavanagh's book doesn't merit a thread of its own (or at least some comment from more than one or two individuals).

I mean, is no-one else astonished, even outraged, that a team manager could get away with imposing his personal religious leanings on an entire team, to the exclusion of those who may feel differently?

i read a lot of stuff about sledging and foul play etc, but there is at least some possible redress (referee) or comeback (retaliation) to those things, but what can someone on the Tyrone panel who doesn't agree say or do to this? Speak out and never play for the county again?

And all that's BEFORE you get to the context of sport and society in  NI.

Could you imagine the shitstorm if eg the Linfield manager required his players eg to take part in some sort of Orange Order parade, or British armed forces commemoration, or attend a Free Presbyterian service?

It would be roundly and publicly condemned, with the governing body clamping down immediately, and QUITE RIGHTLY too, imo. In fact, it's unthinkable. (And I say that as someone who pretty much despises Linfield, btw).

"GAA For All (Protestants need not apply)"

Those aren't accurate comparisons - I'd say an accurate comparison would be attending a church service, and the comparisons you've chosen are telling about you, but your general point is valid. (On a slight tangent though, weren't Irish league players forced to take part in a ceremony and have an anthem they don't recognise as theirs played as though it were recently??)

I don't see it as a big imposition at all, but nonetheless everyone should have their own free choice - I haven't seen any evidence yet that they didn't. If anyone went to MH and said, I'm not comfortable, do you really think they would have suffered repercussions re selection? I doubt it very much. It would seem noone involved had an issue (Unlike the Irish league example I mentioned earlier actually).

The majority of Irish catholics are brought up with the ritual of mass, when they have their own free choice they'll all attend weddings, funerals, mass at easter/christmas, for whatever reason. A mass before games in this context isn't a big deal. Irish catholicism isn't taken that seriously, its just a routine for many, and I think thats the context it needs to be taken in. its not forcing your religious views onto others, as it is being portrayed.

I think you missed the point there.
Most Irish catholics wouldn't have a major problem with it. But What about somebody who isn't catholic? It's a pretty big deal to anyone of any other religion (or no religion).  It could certainly be viewed as 'forcing' your catholic views onto non catholics.
Obviously, we don't know how much 'forcing' was done, but all managers want players to do things as a team. Therefore it's likely that everyone was strongly encouraged to go as a team!

I'm not missing the point. The players were all from a catholic background. The hypothetical situation you describe didn't occur. If it had, I'm sure it would have been dealt with in the proper manner. MH would of course have been aware of the situation and adjusted accordingly. He is there to build bonds and win matches, not convert people to catholicism.

At the end of the day, this was something willingly partaken in by a group of people comfortable with the environment they were in. What we now have is people outside that environment theorising about what took place, or could have took place, or how players probably weren't comfortable but weren't able to say anything....none of which I believe for a second.

And of course, it could be noted that if there was an issue the captain should surely be the person to bring that up with the management team at the time. Instead he sniped about it later, and hasn't chosen to point out that everyone seemed satisfied with the arrangement (if there'd been any murmurings you can bet he'd have written about them!)

You don't know that to be the case yet your saying others are theorising, surely you're just doing the same. I doubt very much that 30 odd twentysomethings in any Gaelic football squad are practicing Catholics and believe in God. Personally I'd be very annoyed in that was asked of me in a team setting and I think many younger players/fringe players etc. would feel they may not be able to raise their concerns. Harte is in a position of Tyrone GAA authority and a religious man himself, he shouldn't have mixed them together. It was totally out of order IMO.

There hasn't been the slightest murmurings of complaint from those who have ever partaken. Many of these have also left the panel now, so aren't restricted by the fear of MH that some posters would have you believe. So in the absence of a shred of evidence to the contrary, despite ample resources and time for such to be found, I think I'm entitled to form the opinion noone had an issue with it.

I agree completely that they are all very unlikey to be practicing catholics - the point the rest of the post made is that, when brought up as a catholic, you still partake in rituals when it suits - weddings, funerals, christmas, easter - without it costing you a thought. I think the same relevance should be placed on this ritual (i.e. not that much).

Good post which is very accurate.  Additionally, I doubt there are many top protestant forwards in Tyrone that we are missing out on.  I would be interested to see how many protestants are actually playing club football in Tyrone or any other of the counties in the North.

This attitude is a complete joke.  You need to wake up to yourself. 

Imagine the same conversation on the OWC forum.  "Sure what odds if Glentorinfield bring in Pastor James McConnell before the games for a prayer service.  There aren't too many Catholics playing in the Irish League and most of them play for Cliftonville anyway". This is what we call institutional sectarianism. 

What part of this don't you understand? It is not the players that you are currently missing out on in Tyrone - it is the long term perception of the GAA as an exclusively catholic organisation.  This applies as much to lapsed catholic families in Dublin, to protestants in the North, to Muslims in Ballyhaunis or to a catholics themselves that aren't comfortable with religion being brought into the changing room. 

It is also a concern that Mickey Harte's perception of the GAA is exclusively catholic, so much so, that he takes this approach.

Wise up.  Institutional sectarianism - good one.  The fact of the matter is that most GAA players are catholic.  Very few protestants play and I don't see that changing.  Do I have any issue with them playing?  Of course not, it would be great if it was more welcoming to protestants and became more inclusive.  However, in this case that you are getting your knickers in a twist over, a manager has taken his team to mass before games.  Harte knows the makeup of his squad, which I assume is all catholic, therefore he has done what he has done on this basis.  I doubt he would have arranged this if the squad had members of other faiths included.  I'm sure a lot of fellas didn't really want to go, moreso because they couldn't be bothered rather than the fact that they are extremely offended.  They had a choice still.  I am Catholic, but its been a long time since I was at mass, really because I have other things I would rather do.  If I was in the squad, I wouldn't have wanted to go but I probably would have went as it is no big deal and I've been hundreds of times before.  As Haranguerer said, you partake in rituals when the need arises - weddings, funerals, Christmas, Easter etc, without it costing you a thought.  I'm sure the players that attended went without much mulling over required, its only mass after all.   

[trueblue1234]

I know this was nothing new, but the stuff on Mass and the Rosary for me is something that the Tyrone CB should be looking very strongly at.  Totally inappropriate given the message it sends out to those with other faiths and none, that have an interest in playing Gaelic Football.

Noticed an reference to this elsewhere, so took a quick look to see what the reaction was on this forum.

Frankly, I'm shocked - though not surprised - that this particular aspect of Cavanagh's book doesn't merit a thread of its own (or at least some comment from more than one or two individuals).

I mean, is no-one else astonished, even outraged, that a team manager could get away with imposing his personal religious leanings on an entire team, to the exclusion of those who may feel differently?

i read a lot of stuff about sledging and foul play etc, but there is at least some possible redress (referee) or comeback (retaliation) to those things, but what can someone on the Tyrone panel who doesn't agree say or do to this? Speak out and never play for the county again?

And all that's BEFORE you get to the context of sport and society in  NI.

Could you imagine the shitstorm if eg the Linfield manager required his players eg to take part in some sort of Orange Order parade, or British armed forces commemoration, or attend a Free Presbyterian service?

It would be roundly and publicly condemned, with the governing body clamping down immediately, and QUITE RIGHTLY too, imo. In fact, it's unthinkable. (And I say that as someone who pretty much despises Linfield, btw).

"GAA For All (Protestants need not apply)"

Those aren't accurate comparisons - I'd say an accurate comparison would be attending a church service, and the comparisons you've chosen are telling about you, but your general point is valid. (On a slight tangent though, weren't Irish league players forced to take part in a ceremony and have an anthem they don't recognise as theirs played as though it were recently??)

I don't see it as a big imposition at all, but nonetheless everyone should have their own free choice - I haven't seen any evidence yet that they didn't. If anyone went to MH and said, I'm not comfortable, do you really think they would have suffered repercussions re selection? I doubt it very much. It would seem noone involved had an issue (Unlike the Irish league example I mentioned earlier actually).

The majority of Irish catholics are brought up with the ritual of mass, when they have their own free choice they'll all attend weddings, funerals, mass at easter/christmas, for whatever reason. A mass before games in this context isn't a big deal. Irish catholicism isn't taken that seriously, its just a routine for many, and I think thats the context it needs to be taken in. its not forcing your religious views onto others, as it is being portrayed.

I think you missed the point there.
Most Irish catholics wouldn't have a major problem with it. But What about somebody who isn't catholic? It's a pretty big deal to anyone of any other religion (or no religion).  It could certainly be viewed as 'forcing' your catholic views onto non catholics.
Obviously, we don't know how much 'forcing' was done, but all managers want players to do things as a team. Therefore it's likely that everyone was strongly encouraged to go as a team!

I'm not missing the point. The players were all from a catholic background. The hypothetical situation you describe didn't occur. If it had, I'm sure it would have been dealt with in the proper manner. MH would of course have been aware of the situation and adjusted accordingly. He is there to build bonds and win matches, not convert people to catholicism.

At the end of the day, this was something willingly partaken in by a group of people comfortable with the environment they were in. What we now have is people outside that environment theorising about what took place, or could have took place, or how players probably weren't comfortable but weren't able to say anything....none of which I believe for a second.

And of course, it could be noted that if there was an issue the captain should surely be the person to bring that up with the management team at the time. Instead he sniped about it later, and hasn't chosen to point out that everyone seemed satisfied with the arrangement (if there'd been any murmurings you can bet he'd have written about them!)

You don't know that to be the case yet your saying others are theorising, surely you're just doing the same. I doubt very much that 30 odd twentysomethings in any Gaelic football squad are practicing Catholics and believe in God. Personally I'd be very annoyed in that was asked of me in a team setting and I think many younger players/fringe players etc. would feel they may not be able to raise their concerns. Harte is in a position of Tyrone GAA authority and a religious man himself, he shouldn't have mixed them together. It was totally out of order IMO.

There hasn't been the slightest murmurings of complaint from those who have ever partaken. Many of these have also left the panel now, so aren't restricted by the fear of MH that some posters would have you believe. So in the absence of a shred of evidence to the contrary, despite ample resources and time for such to be found, I think I'm entitled to form the opinion noone had an issue with it.

I agree completely that they are all very unlikey to be practicing catholics - the point the rest of the post made is that, when brought up as a catholic, you still partake in rituals when it suits - weddings, funerals, christmas, easter - without it costing you a thought. I think the same relevance should be placed on this ritual (i.e. not that much).

Good post which is very accurate.  Additionally, I doubt there are many top protestant forwards in Tyrone that we are missing out on.  I would be interested to see how many protestants are actually playing club football in Tyrone or any other of the counties in the North.

This attitude is a complete joke.  You need to wake up to yourself. 

Imagine the same conversation on the OWC forum.  "Sure what odds if Glentorinfield bring in Pastor James McConnell before the games for a prayer service.  There aren't too many Catholics playing in the Irish League and most of them play for Cliftonville anyway". This is what we call institutional sectarianism. 

What part of this don't you understand? It is not the players that you are currently missing out on in Tyrone - it is the long term perception of the GAA as an exclusively catholic organisation.  This applies as much to lapsed catholic families in Dublin, to protestants in the North, to Muslims in Ballyhaunis or to a catholics themselves that aren't comfortable with religion being brought into the changing room. 

It is also a concern that Mickey Harte's perception of the GAA is exclusively catholic, so much so, that he takes this approach.

Wise up.  Institutional sectarianism - good one.  The fact of the matter is that most GAA players are catholic.  Very few protestants play and I don't see that changing.  Do I have any issue with them playing?  Of course not, it would be great if it was more welcoming to protestants and became more inclusive.  However, in this case that you are getting your knickers in a twist over, a manager has taken his team to mass before games.  Harte knows the makeup of his squad, which I assume is all catholic, therefore he has done what he has done on this basis.  I doubt he would have arranged this if the squad had members of other faiths included.  I'm sure a lot of fellas didn't really want to go, moreso because they couldn't be bothered rather than the fact that they are extremely offended.  They had a choice still.  I am Catholic, but its been a long time since I was at mass, really because I have other things I would rather do.  If I was in the squad, I wouldn't have wanted to go but I probably would have went as it is no big deal and I've been hundreds of times before.  As Haranguerer said, you partake in rituals when the need arises - weddings, funerals, Christmas, Easter etc, without it costing you a thought.  I'm sure the players that attended went without much mulling over required, its only mass after all.

Look I'm a Mickey Harte supporter. I wouldn't want anyone else in there managing Tyrone for the time being as I think he's the best at what he does. But I can't agree with this attitude.
It's not about whether there is a fantastic Protestant playing out there at the  minute that we're missing out on. It's the perception that the Tyrone team is all catholic and that it is part of the culture. The knock on effect of that is that some protestants that were maybe thinking of playing, or parents of children who were thinking of sending their children to football in Tyrone may have second thoughts given this perceived culture. You could argue that it wasn't going to happy anyway, but that doesn't matter, as long as we aren't creating a barrier to it happening. So it's not about who we might be missing out on now, but who we may be missing out on in the future by creating this image.

[APM]

I know this was nothing new, but the stuff on Mass and the Rosary for me is something that the Tyrone CB should be looking very strongly at.  Totally inappropriate given the message it sends out to those with other faiths and none, that have an interest in playing Gaelic Football.

Noticed an reference to this elsewhere, so took a quick look to see what the reaction was on this forum.

Frankly, I'm shocked - though not surprised - that this particular aspect of Cavanagh's book doesn't merit a thread of its own (or at least some comment from more than one or two individuals).

I mean, is no-one else astonished, even outraged, that a team manager could get away with imposing his personal religious leanings on an entire team, to the exclusion of those who may feel differently?

i read a lot of stuff about sledging and foul play etc, but there is at least some possible redress (referee) or comeback (retaliation) to those things, but what can someone on the Tyrone panel who doesn't agree say or do to this? Speak out and never play for the county again?

And all that's BEFORE you get to the context of sport and society in  NI.

Could you imagine the shitstorm if eg the Linfield manager required his players eg to take part in some sort of Orange Order parade, or British armed forces commemoration, or attend a Free Presbyterian service?

It would be roundly and publicly condemned, with the governing body clamping down immediately, and QUITE RIGHTLY too, imo. In fact, it's unthinkable. (And I say that as someone who pretty much despises Linfield, btw).

"GAA For All (Protestants need not apply)"

Those aren't accurate comparisons - I'd say an accurate comparison would be attending a church service, and the comparisons you've chosen are telling about you, but your general point is valid. (On a slight tangent though, weren't Irish league players forced to take part in a ceremony and have an anthem they don't recognise as theirs played as though it were recently??)

I don't see it as a big imposition at all, but nonetheless everyone should have their own free choice - I haven't seen any evidence yet that they didn't. If anyone went to MH and said, I'm not comfortable, do you really think they would have suffered repercussions re selection? I doubt it very much. It would seem noone involved had an issue (Unlike the Irish league example I mentioned earlier actually).

The majority of Irish catholics are brought up with the ritual of mass, when they have their own free choice they'll all attend weddings, funerals, mass at easter/christmas, for whatever reason. A mass before games in this context isn't a big deal. Irish catholicism isn't taken that seriously, its just a routine for many, and I think thats the context it needs to be taken in. its not forcing your religious views onto others, as it is being portrayed.

I think you missed the point there.
Most Irish catholics wouldn't have a major problem with it. But What about somebody who isn't catholic? It's a pretty big deal to anyone of any other religion (or no religion).  It could certainly be viewed as 'forcing' your catholic views onto non catholics.
Obviously, we don't know how much 'forcing' was done, but all managers want players to do things as a team. Therefore it's likely that everyone was strongly encouraged to go as a team!

I'm not missing the point. The players were all from a catholic background. The hypothetical situation you describe didn't occur. If it had, I'm sure it would have been dealt with in the proper manner. MH would of course have been aware of the situation and adjusted accordingly. He is there to build bonds and win matches, not convert people to catholicism.

At the end of the day, this was something willingly partaken in by a group of people comfortable with the environment they were in. What we now have is people outside that environment theorising about what took place, or could have took place, or how players probably weren't comfortable but weren't able to say anything....none of which I believe for a second.

And of course, it could be noted that if there was an issue the captain should surely be the person to bring that up with the management team at the time. Instead he sniped about it later, and hasn't chosen to point out that everyone seemed satisfied with the arrangement (if there'd been any murmurings you can bet he'd have written about them!)

You don't know that to be the case yet your saying others are theorising, surely you're just doing the same. I doubt very much that 30 odd twentysomethings in any Gaelic football squad are practicing Catholics and believe in God. Personally I'd be very annoyed in that was asked of me in a team setting and I think many younger players/fringe players etc. would feel they may not be able to raise their concerns. Harte is in a position of Tyrone GAA authority and a religious man himself, he shouldn't have mixed them together. It was totally out of order IMO.

There hasn't been the slightest murmurings of complaint from those who have ever partaken. Many of these have also left the panel now, so aren't restricted by the fear of MH that some posters would have you believe. So in the absence of a shred of evidence to the contrary, despite ample resources and time for such to be found, I think I'm entitled to form the opinion noone had an issue with it.

I agree completely that they are all very unlikey to be practicing catholics - the point the rest of the post made is that, when brought up as a catholic, you still partake in rituals when it suits - weddings, funerals, christmas, easter - without it costing you a thought. I think the same relevance should be placed on this ritual (i.e. not that much).

Good post which is very accurate.  Additionally, I doubt there are many top protestant forwards in Tyrone that we are missing out on.  I would be interested to see how many protestants are actually playing club football in Tyrone or any other of the counties in the North.

This attitude is a complete joke.  You need to wake up to yourself. 

Imagine the same conversation on the OWC forum.  "Sure what odds if Glentorinfield bring in Pastor James McConnell before the games for a prayer service.  There aren't too many Catholics playing in the Irish League and most of them play for Cliftonville anyway". This is what we call institutional sectarianism. 

What part of this don't you understand? It is not the players that you are currently missing out on in Tyrone - it is the long term perception of the GAA as an exclusively catholic organisation.  This applies as much to lapsed catholic families in Dublin, to protestants in the North, to Muslims in Ballyhaunis or to a catholics themselves that aren't comfortable with religion being brought into the changing room. 

It is also a concern that Mickey Harte's perception of the GAA is exclusively catholic, so much so, that he takes this approach.

Wise up.  Institutional sectarianism - good one.  The fact of the matter is that most GAA players are catholic.  Very few protestants play and I don't see that changing.  Do I have any issue with them playing?  Of course not, it would be great if it was more welcoming to protestants and became more inclusive.  However, in this case that you are getting your knickers in a twist over, a manager has taken his team to mass before games.  Harte knows the makeup of his squad, which I assume is all catholic, therefore he has done what he has done on this basis.  I doubt he would have arranged this if the squad had members of other faiths included.  I'm sure a lot of fellas didn't really want to go, moreso because they couldn't be bothered rather than the fact that they are extremely offended.  They had a choice still.  I am Catholic, but its been a long time since I was at mass, really because I have other things I would rather do.  If I was in the squad, I wouldn't have wanted to go but I probably would have went as it is no big deal and I've been hundreds of times before.  As Haranguerer said, you partake in rituals when the need arises - weddings, funerals, Christmas, Easter etc, without it costing you a thought.  I'm sure the players that attended went without much mulling over required, its only mass after all.   

I'd like you to address the scenario I mentioned above. 

Your 14 y/o son is a promising soccer player.  Top Irish League club want him to join their youth team.  You are up for it, but then you hear that Pastor James McConnell prays with the senior team before all their league and cup matches.  What do you do?

[haranguerer]

You're talking rubbish. As EG did in the initial post, you're using false equivalences.

Your teammate dies. He was catholic, you're protestant. The team ask everyone to attend the funeral in club colours and do a guard of honour. What do you do?

[APM]

What I'm describing is completely equivalent! EG brought the OO into it which was a false equivalence.  The scenario you describe above is also a false equivalent!

This is truly equivalent.  Both scenarios involve prayer associated with a particular religion or denomination before a game. 

Harte has given his players Rosary Beads and they have said the rosary together.  The team attends mass before games.  How is this any different to the scenario I have asked you to consider. 

Tell me what you would do? Tell me how that would make you feel about that club? Tell me how it would make you feel about the Irish League. 

[haranguerer]

Oh really? Why did you pick James McConnell?

[nrico2006]

I know this was nothing new, but the stuff on Mass and the Rosary for me is something that the Tyrone CB should be looking very strongly at.  Totally inappropriate given the message it sends out to those with other faiths and none, that have an interest in playing Gaelic Football.

Noticed an reference to this elsewhere, so took a quick look to see what the reaction was on this forum.

Frankly, I'm shocked - though not surprised - that this particular aspect of Cavanagh's book doesn't merit a thread of its own (or at least some comment from more than one or two individuals).

I mean, is no-one else astonished, even outraged, that a team manager could get away with imposing his personal religious leanings on an entire team, to the exclusion of those who may feel differently?

i read a lot of stuff about sledging and foul play etc, but there is at least some possible redress (referee) or comeback (retaliation) to those things, but what can someone on the Tyrone panel who doesn't agree say or do to this? Speak out and never play for the county again?

And all that's BEFORE you get to the context of sport and society in  NI.

Could you imagine the shitstorm if eg the Linfield manager required his players eg to take part in some sort of Orange Order parade, or British armed forces commemoration, or attend a Free Presbyterian service?

It would be roundly and publicly condemned, with the governing body clamping down immediately, and QUITE RIGHTLY too, imo. In fact, it's unthinkable. (And I say that as someone who pretty much despises Linfield, btw).

"GAA For All (Protestants need not apply)"

Those aren't accurate comparisons - I'd say an accurate comparison would be attending a church service, and the comparisons you've chosen are telling about you, but your general point is valid. (On a slight tangent though, weren't Irish league players forced to take part in a ceremony and have an anthem they don't recognise as theirs played as though it were recently??)

I don't see it as a big imposition at all, but nonetheless everyone should have their own free choice - I haven't seen any evidence yet that they didn't. If anyone went to MH and said, I'm not comfortable, do you really think they would have suffered repercussions re selection? I doubt it very much. It would seem noone involved had an issue (Unlike the Irish league example I mentioned earlier actually).

The majority of Irish catholics are brought up with the ritual of mass, when they have their own free choice they'll all attend weddings, funerals, mass at easter/christmas, for whatever reason. A mass before games in this context isn't a big deal. Irish catholicism isn't taken that seriously, its just a routine for many, and I think thats the context it needs to be taken in. its not forcing your religious views onto others, as it is being portrayed.

I think you missed the point there.
Most Irish catholics wouldn't have a major problem with it. But What about somebody who isn't catholic? It's a pretty big deal to anyone of any other religion (or no religion).  It could certainly be viewed as 'forcing' your catholic views onto non catholics.
Obviously, we don't know how much 'forcing' was done, but all managers want players to do things as a team. Therefore it's likely that everyone was strongly encouraged to go as a team!

I'm not missing the point. The players were all from a catholic background. The hypothetical situation you describe didn't occur. If it had, I'm sure it would have been dealt with in the proper manner. MH would of course have been aware of the situation and adjusted accordingly. He is there to build bonds and win matches, not convert people to catholicism.

At the end of the day, this was something willingly partaken in by a group of people comfortable with the environment they were in. What we now have is people outside that environment theorising about what took place, or could have took place, or how players probably weren't comfortable but weren't able to say anything....none of which I believe for a second.

And of course, it could be noted that if there was an issue the captain should surely be the person to bring that up with the management team at the time. Instead he sniped about it later, and hasn't chosen to point out that everyone seemed satisfied with the arrangement (if there'd been any murmurings you can bet he'd have written about them!)

You don't know that to be the case yet your saying others are theorising, surely you're just doing the same. I doubt very much that 30 odd twentysomethings in any Gaelic football squad are practicing Catholics and believe in God. Personally I'd be very annoyed in that was asked of me in a team setting and I think many younger players/fringe players etc. would feel they may not be able to raise their concerns. Harte is in a position of Tyrone GAA authority and a religious man himself, he shouldn't have mixed them together. It was totally out of order IMO.

There hasn't been the slightest murmurings of complaint from those who have ever partaken. Many of these have also left the panel now, so aren't restricted by the fear of MH that some posters would have you believe. So in the absence of a shred of evidence to the contrary, despite ample resources and time for such to be found, I think I'm entitled to form the opinion noone had an issue with it.

I agree completely that they are all very unlikey to be practicing catholics - the point the rest of the post made is that, when brought up as a catholic, you still partake in rituals when it suits - weddings, funerals, christmas, easter - without it costing you a thought. I think the same relevance should be placed on this ritual (i.e. not that much).

Good post which is very accurate.  Additionally, I doubt there are many top protestant forwards in Tyrone that we are missing out on.  I would be interested to see how many protestants are actually playing club football in Tyrone or any other of the counties in the North.

This attitude is a complete joke.  You need to wake up to yourself. 

Imagine the same conversation on the OWC forum.  "Sure what odds if Glentorinfield bring in Pastor James McConnell before the games for a prayer service.  There aren't too many Catholics playing in the Irish League and most of them play for Cliftonville anyway". This is what we call institutional sectarianism. 

What part of this don't you understand? It is not the players that you are currently missing out on in Tyrone - it is the long term perception of the GAA as an exclusively catholic organisation.  This applies as much to lapsed catholic families in Dublin, to protestants in the North, to Muslims in Ballyhaunis or to a catholics themselves that aren't comfortable with religion being brought into the changing room. 

It is also a concern that Mickey Harte's perception of the GAA is exclusively catholic, so much so, that he takes this approach.

Wise up.  Institutional sectarianism - good one.  The fact of the matter is that most GAA players are catholic.  Very few protestants play and I don't see that changing.  Do I have any issue with them playing?  Of course not, it would be great if it was more welcoming to protestants and became more inclusive.  However, in this case that you are getting your knickers in a twist over, a manager has taken his team to mass before games.  Harte knows the makeup of his squad, which I assume is all catholic, therefore he has done what he has done on this basis.  I doubt he would have arranged this if the squad had members of other faiths included.  I'm sure a lot of fellas didn't really want to go, moreso because they couldn't be bothered rather than the fact that they are extremely offended.  They had a choice still.  I am Catholic, but its been a long time since I was at mass, really because I have other things I would rather do.  If I was in the squad, I wouldn't have wanted to go but I probably would have went as it is no big deal and I've been hundreds of times before.  As Haranguerer said, you partake in rituals when the need arises - weddings, funerals, Christmas, Easter etc, without it costing you a thought.  I'm sure the players that attended went without much mulling over required, its only mass after all.   

I'd like you to address the scenario I mentioned above. 

Your 14 y/o son is a promising soccer player.  Top Irish League club want him to join their youth team.  You are up for it, but then you hear that Pastor James McConnell prays with the senior team before all their league and cup matches.  What do you do?

I'd let him join the youth team. 

[easytiger95]

The game is taken too serious. Players devote most of their lives, even to club football. ROared on by a demented manager making a name for himself and a brown envelope in his back pocket, getting boys to climb redwood trees and pulling monster trucks in the chapel car park. Players end up doing anything to gain success and lose sight of what's fair, honourable and sportsmanlike. So we end up with lads taken to hospital, broken jaws, lost teeth etc.

There is no outlet for your average club player, those who can't/won't devote the time/effort to play elite club football. No place for recreational football, just for the craic. Where the stakes are low, and boys are lining out for the enjoyment, to stay fit and the comradeship.

The GAA go on about the drop off after minor level. The main reason for it isn't lack of interest in the game. It's that people just can't commit to crazy schedules just to play club football.

+1000

My son is just starting off in the game - for a couple of medical reasons he is probably never going to trouble Brian Fenton's place on the Dublin team, but I would love if he could just have it as a past time to knock around with his friends. I doubt that is going to happen and I think the drop off will come a lot quicker as things get a lot more competitive when they hit the teen years.

[APM]

Oh really? Why did you pick James McConnell?

Fair enough point - pick any preacher!

I'd let him join the youth team. 

If you are being genuine, then I would say fair play - I'm not so sure I'd feel the same, no more so than if the parish priest was coming into the club to say a rosary with the u14s before a championship final.  I go to mass weekly, so have no problem with religion per se. But I would have a major issue with it being foisted upon people who haven't asked for it. 

My major issue in all of this is that we assume that all gaelic footballers are catholic and that the only ones that would want to play are catholic.  Therefore, why wouldn't this be a problem.  That is a very dangerous assumption and that's what gets my goat about this. 

[nrico2006]

Oh really? Why did you pick James McConnell?

Fair enough point - pick any preacher!

I'd let him join the youth team. 

If you are being genuine, then I would say fair play - I'm not so sure I'd feel the same, no more so than if the parish priest was coming into the club to say a rosary with the u14s before a championship final.  I go to mass weekly, so have no problem with religion per se. But I would have a major issue with it being foisted upon people who haven't asked for it. 

My major issue in all of this is that we assume that all gaelic footballers are catholic and that the only ones that would want to play are catholic.  Therefore, why wouldn't this be a problem.  That is a very dangerous assumption and that's what gets my goat about this.

I don't disagree either regarding the religion, I just don't see it as a big deal.  If it was me in charge of a team I wouldn't see any reason to bring the squad to mass etc, there are other more fun ways of team building.  I also would rather there were no pastor at the football club, but again I wouldn't see it as a big deal.  I have a wee girl who would rather go to GB than ladies football or camogie, same with that in that I let her go to whatever she prefers irrelevant of the environment it brings me or her to.