All Ireland Football semi-final;Mayo v Kerry,Sunday Aug 20

Started by maigheo, August 08, 2017, 03:38:11 AM

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Blowitupref

Quote from: Tubberman on August 10, 2017, 04:54:47 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 10, 2017, 01:13:07 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 09, 2017, 01:43:44 AM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 09, 2017, 12:07:43 AM
Quote from: Zulu on August 08, 2017, 11:23:28 PM
According to Colm Parkinson, Mayo pushed up on Roscommon's kickouts but left a Ros player free to force the keeper to kick to him and knowing where the kickout was headed the mayo players closest to the free Ros player were ready to swarm him. Tactics now are far more refined but I'd say Mayo are doing plenty.
Mayo losing to Galway,needing extra time to beat Cork,Derry and replay to overcome Roscommon would suggest Rochford is struggling with his tactics. Kerry beat Galway,Cork comfortably in 70 minutes and would do the same against Derry,Roscommon if they played them.

Don't think how Mayo do against teams outside the top 2 or 3 has anything to do with tactics, it's more to do with their attitude. I don't see any evidence that they've been tactical poor in the past few years.
Good God Zulu, you cannot be serious!!
Remember Limerick 2014?
Horan matched Cafferkey with Donaghy  who outfielded him every time the ball was kicked in?
Not only did Horan fail to makes any changes to curb Donaghy’s dominance but he set no one to mark Jamesy who went to toen on ballls bropken down by Donaghy. IIRC, Donaghy scored 2-7 that day.
The gruesome twosome got their P45s because they made a bulls of a job on the sideline in the first game against Dublin in 2015.The pair was later to claim one of the players left the notes prepared for the game behind him in the hotel and the players reared up on the poor, innocent managers because of this!
Rochford was getting a bollicking form all quarters up to last Sunday. He persisted in taking Andy Moran and Colm Boyle off around the 50 minute mark even though there was no obvious reason for doing so.
Okay, things went a thousand times better last Sunday but I believe that the players pressurised Rochford into making clearly necessary changes in tactics.
If any of the managers since O’Mahony got off the pot, had the tactical savvy of, say, Jim Gavin or Mickey Harte, the Mayo team would be up to its collective arse with Celtic crosses by now. ;D

You have no appreciation for what managers have achieved do you? You call them every name under the sun, but you might remember before Horan took over, John O'Mahony (who is somehow spared your disdain) led us to a defeat to Longford.
Horan took over that Autumn and led us to 4 connacht titles in a row, 4 semi finals in a row and 2 finals. Do you think he might have earned some respect for that? Do you think maybe tactics played a part in those achievements?
True. I don't think James Horan has got the credit he has deserved for turning Mayo around and they wouldn't be where they are right now IMO but for his professional approach on and off the field. Pat Holmes and Noel Connelly deserve some respect also as they were managers of those four in a row U21 teams (2006 to 2009) and Horan built his senior panel around those 4 successful U21 teams.
Is the ref going to finally blow his whistle?... No, he's going to blow his nose

Zulu

Lar, I think it's nonsense to say Mayo have been tactically out-thought on big days. When you play good teams they'll do some good things, unless you play 15 in defence there's always a risk that good forwards will find themselves in space and do damage, that's football. I can't remember the game but Gavin stood and watched one of his defenders get roasted and did nothing, Dublin won though so he was never questioned. When you lose All Ireland semis or finals everything is dissected and when you win everything is positive.

I agree on the substitutions, particularly taking off Moran but I often read here and elsewhere that managers 'got their tactics all wrong' but like a Trump election promise there is no detail. Maybe I'm not tactically aware but I haven't seen a whole lot wrong with what Mayo do. You haven't won an All Ireland due to your forwards IMO.



Lar Naparka

Quote from: Tubberman on August 10, 2017, 04:54:47 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 10, 2017, 01:13:07 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 09, 2017, 01:43:44 AM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 09, 2017, 12:07:43 AM
Quote from: Zulu on August 08, 2017, 11:23:28 PM
According to Colm Parkinson, Mayo pushed up on Roscommon's kickouts but left a Ros player free to force the keeper to kick to him and knowing where the kickout was headed the mayo players closest to the free Ros player were ready to swarm him. Tactics now are far more refined but I'd say Mayo are doing plenty.
Mayo losing to Galway,needing extra time to beat Cork,Derry and replay to overcome Roscommon would suggest Rochford is struggling with his tactics. Kerry beat Galway,Cork comfortably in 70 minutes and would do the same against Derry,Roscommon if they played them.

Don't think how Mayo do against teams outside the top 2 or 3 has anything to do with tactics, it's more to do with their attitude. I don't see any evidence that they've been tactical poor in the past few years.
Good God Zulu, you cannot be serious!!
Remember Limerick 2014?
Horan matched Cafferkey with Donaghy  who outfielded him every time the ball was kicked in?
Not only did Horan fail to makes any changes to curb Donaghy's dominance but he set no one to mark Jamesy who went to toen on ballls bropken down by Donaghy. IIRC, Donaghy scored 2-7 that day.
The gruesome twosome got their P45s because they made a bulls of a job on the sideline in the first game against Dublin in 2015.The pair was later to claim one of the players left the notes prepared for the game behind him in the hotel and the players reared up on the poor, innocent managers because of this!
Rochford was getting a bollicking form all quarters up to last Sunday. He persisted in taking Andy Moran and Colm Boyle off around the 50 minute mark even though there was no obvious reason for doing so.
Okay, things went a thousand times better last Sunday but I believe that the players pressurised Rochford into making clearly necessary changes in tactics.
If any of the managers since O'Mahony got off the pot, had the tactical savvy of, say, Jim Gavin or Mickey Harte, the Mayo team would be up to its collective arse with Celtic crosses by now. ;D

You have no appreciation for what managers have achieved do you? You call them every name under the sun, but you might remember before Horan took over, John O'Mahony (who is somehow spared your disdain) led us to a defeat to Longford.
Horan took over that Autumn and led us to 4 connacht titles in a row, 4 semi finals in a row and 2 finals. Do you think he might have earned some respect for that? Do you think maybe tactics played a part in those achievements?

Oh yes I have and I've said it here many times that Horan worked wonders with Mayo but here I was answering a straight question with a straight answer.
I know damn well how much of a mess O'Mahony made of things but I was talking of poor tactical decisions made by the present and recent managers, again, in response to a straight question. So, who did I call every name under the sun?  I mentioned the 'gruesome twosome', a term that was widely applied to them during their time in charge. Nothing new abut that. While I'm at it, I had plenty to say about O'Mahony when he was in charge and you went apeshit attacking everything I had to say. I did ask you one time to point one single instance where I was wrong in my assessment of O'Mahony's tactics and general management and I'm still awaiting your answer.
Horan got his match ups wrong in Limerick and all the plamás in the world won't hide the fact that Donaghy destroyed Cafferkey that day. What good Horan undoubtedly did for Mayo football should not be used as an excuse for allowing Donaghy to score 2-7 and end Mayo's chances for another year.
There's no need to be so fecking patronising about Horan's achievements either. I know what he won as well as you do. I wasn't dismissing his achievements when I mentioned Donaghy v Cafferkey either. One can't be used to excuse the other.
The disagreement between Noel and Pateen and the team after the semifinal in 2015 and the recriminations that followed are common knowledge to most Mayo people. The players felt they had the winning of that game the first day and they felt that sideline decisions let them down.
Again, I accept that Rochford has been getting a barrage of criticism since taking over and most of it is unjustified, (in my opinion) but that doesn't hide the fact that he has been criticised from many quarters for his substitutions and personnel switches during every game this year up to last Monday. That's not a personal opinion either.
I have given Zulu a number of examples where I felt poor tactics either lost games or made the winning of them much harder than necessary. Nothing personal intended where any of the managers were concerned.

You sure have anger management issues and maybe you should consider some other more sedentary pastime like floral arrangement or talking a dog for long walks or something like that.
In all seriousness, you spend more time criticising others posters' opinions than any other member of the board and generally you get your facts arseways.
Have a nice day!
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

Jinxy

Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 10, 2017, 07:41:06 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on August 10, 2017, 04:54:47 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 10, 2017, 01:13:07 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 09, 2017, 01:43:44 AM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 09, 2017, 12:07:43 AM
Quote from: Zulu on August 08, 2017, 11:23:28 PM
According to Colm Parkinson, Mayo pushed up on Roscommon's kickouts but left a Ros player free to force the keeper to kick to him and knowing where the kickout was headed the mayo players closest to the free Ros player were ready to swarm him. Tactics now are far more refined but I'd say Mayo are doing plenty.
Mayo losing to Galway,needing extra time to beat Cork,Derry and replay to overcome Roscommon would suggest Rochford is struggling with his tactics. Kerry beat Galway,Cork comfortably in 70 minutes and would do the same against Derry,Roscommon if they played them.

Don't think how Mayo do against teams outside the top 2 or 3 has anything to do with tactics, it's more to do with their attitude. I don't see any evidence that they've been tactical poor in the past few years.
Good God Zulu, you cannot be serious!!
Remember Limerick 2014?
Horan matched Cafferkey with Donaghy  who outfielded him every time the ball was kicked in?
Not only did Horan fail to makes any changes to curb Donaghy's dominance but he set no one to mark Jamesy who went to toen on ballls bropken down by Donaghy. IIRC, Donaghy scored 2-7 that day.
The gruesome twosome got their P45s because they made a bulls of a job on the sideline in the first game against Dublin in 2015.The pair was later to claim one of the players left the notes prepared for the game behind him in the hotel and the players reared up on the poor, innocent managers because of this!
Rochford was getting a bollicking form all quarters up to last Sunday. He persisted in taking Andy Moran and Colm Boyle off around the 50 minute mark even though there was no obvious reason for doing so.
Okay, things went a thousand times better last Sunday but I believe that the players pressurised Rochford into making clearly necessary changes in tactics.
If any of the managers since O'Mahony got off the pot, had the tactical savvy of, say, Jim Gavin or Mickey Harte, the Mayo team would be up to its collective arse with Celtic crosses by now. ;D

You have no appreciation for what managers have achieved do you? You call them every name under the sun, but you might remember before Horan took over, John O'Mahony (who is somehow spared your disdain) led us to a defeat to Longford.
Horan took over that Autumn and led us to 4 connacht titles in a row, 4 semi finals in a row and 2 finals. Do you think he might have earned some respect for that? Do you think maybe tactics played a part in those achievements?

Oh yes I have and I've said it here many times that Horan worked wonders with Mayo but here I was answering a straight question with a straight answer.
I know damn well how much of a mess O'Mahony made of things but I was talking of poor tactical decisions made by the present and recent managers, again, in response to a straight question. So, who did I call every name under the sun?  I mentioned the 'gruesome twosome', a term that was widely applied to them during their time in charge. Nothing new abut that. While I'm at it, I had plenty to say about O'Mahony when he was in charge and you went apeshit attacking everything I had to say. I did ask you one time to point one single instance where I was wrong in my assessment of O'Mahony's tactics and general management and I'm still awaiting your answer.
Horan got his match ups wrong in Limerick and all the plamás in the world won't hide the fact that Donaghy destroyed Cafferkey that day. What good Horan undoubtedly did for Mayo football should not be used as an excuse for allowing Donaghy to score 2-7 and end Mayo's chances for another year.
There's no need to be so fecking patronising about Horan's achievements either. I know what he won as well as you do. I wasn't dismissing his achievements when I mentioned Donaghy v Cafferkey either. One can't be used to excuse the other.
The disagreement between Noel and Pateen and the team after the semifinal in 2015 and the recriminations that followed are common knowledge to most Mayo people. The players felt they had the winning of that game the first day and they felt that sideline decisions let them down.
Again, I accept that Rochford has been getting a barrage of criticism since taking over and most of it is unjustified, (in my opinion) but that doesn't hide the fact that he has been criticised from many quarters for his substitutions and personnel switches during every game this year up to last Monday. That's not a personal opinion either.
I have given Zulu a number of examples where I felt poor tactics either lost games or made the winning of them much harder than necessary. Nothing personal intended where any of the managers were concerned.

You sure have anger management issues and maybe you should consider some other more sedentary pastime like floral arrangement or talking a dog for long walks or something like that.
In all seriousness, you spend more time criticising others posters' opinions than any other member of the board and generally you get your facts arseways.
Have a nice day!

From within the county, Lar?
If you were any use you'd be playing.

twohands!!!

Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 10, 2017, 07:41:06 PM
Horan got his match ups wrong in Limerick and all the plamás in the world won't hide the fact that Donaghy destroyed Cafferkey that day. What good Horan undoubtedly did for Mayo football should not be used as an excuse for allowing Donaghy to score 2-7 and end Mayo's chances for another year.

Donaghy got one score in the drawn game one goal, JOD got 2-6.

This is the 2nd time today you said that Donaghy got 2-7.


From the Bunker

Donaghy destroyed Cafferkey - that there is no doubt in 2014. But Cormac Reilly (Referee) made Donaghy a protected species that evening. Donaghy could do what ever he wanted. Horan moved Keane on Donaghy for extra time. He fared better. JOD was the same got frees for little or nothing. It was a F*ck fest of the highest degree.

Anyway the Cafferkey rehabilitation experiment looks to be over. I expect Donaghy to win ball it's just how crowded out he is when he has it will be the key. Will be interesting to see if the same rules as to what is a foul for Aidan O'Shea correspond to Donaghy.

James O'Donaghue looks to have lost his spark since his dislocated shoulder problems. Thing is Kerry players usually start playing at this time of the season.

At the beginning of the year, I expected us to meet Kerry as Connacht Champions and I expected us to beat them. I actually thought it was the easier side of the draw avoiding Tyrone and Dublin.  We are were we are the long way.  I still strangely expect us to win!

Lar Naparka

Quote from: Zulu on August 10, 2017, 06:26:50 PM
Lar, I think it's nonsense to say Mayo have been tactically out-thought on big days. When you play good teams they'll do some good things, unless you play 15 in defence there's always a risk that good forwards will find themselves in space and do damage, that's football. I can't remember the game but Gavin stood and watched one of his defenders get roasted and did nothing, Dublin won though so he was never questioned. When you lose All Ireland semis or finals everything is dissected and when you win everything is positive.

I agree on the substitutions, particularly taking off Moran but I often read here and elsewhere that managers 'got their tactics all wrong' but like a Trump election promise there is no detail. Maybe I'm not tactically aware but I haven't seen a whole lot wrong with what Mayo do. You haven't won an All Ireland due to your forwards IMO.
Yeah, but I didn't say that. I gave you two specific incidents where I felt poor tactical decisions led to Mayo's defeat. Nothing more. James Horan did a magnificent job of restoring pride in Mayo's players and fans alike and I'd be the last one to knock him but I did mention that he slipped up in Limerick and that's a fact, pure and simple.
You looked for an example: I gave you one.
Same goes for Holmes and Connelly.
I mentioned just one incident where they got a bollicking from the players over the way they failed to respond to problems arising on the field. (Well, that's the sanitised version.) Again, it was common knowledge at the time. I came up with nothing new.
With regard to Rochford, this year's games are still fresh in people's memories so I needn't go into detail.
Right now, he's a hero and fair dues to him, he had a blinder, same as his team but, and there's a big but..., Mayo were cat lucky to survive against all the qualifier teams they met.
Having said all that, I'm inclined to accept that our forwards have not been scoring enough from play to get us through the top endgames, quarters, semis and finals.
I think the forwards in the first game v Roscommon managed only 0-4 from play while the HB line scored 1-6.
That tells its own story.
However, whatever passed between Rochford and his players in the interim has had a profound influence on the players.
Every forward scored form play the last time, bagging 3-7 between them and Nally and Drake each got a point when they came on.
Not too bad by any standard.
I think Kerry must be treated with respect but I wouldn't fear them. They have had three relatively games en route to the semis with long spells of inactivity in between. If Mayo forwards reproduce the form they showed in the last match, anything could happen...
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

Lar Naparka

Quote from: Jinxy on August 10, 2017, 08:52:44 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 10, 2017, 07:41:06 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on August 10, 2017, 04:54:47 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 10, 2017, 01:13:07 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 09, 2017, 01:43:44 AM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 09, 2017, 12:07:43 AM
Quote from: Zulu on August 08, 2017, 11:23:28 PM
According to Colm Parkinson, Mayo pushed up on Roscommon's kickouts but left a Ros player free to force the keeper to kick to him and knowing where the kickout was headed the mayo players closest to the free Ros player were ready to swarm him. Tactics now are far more refined but I'd say Mayo are doing plenty.
Mayo losing to Galway,needing extra time to beat Cork,Derry and replay to overcome Roscommon would suggest Rochford is struggling with his tactics. Kerry beat Galway,Cork comfortably in 70 minutes and would do the same against Derry,Roscommon if they played them.

Don't think how Mayo do against teams outside the top 2 or 3 has anything to do with tactics, it's more to do with their attitude. I don't see any evidence that they've been tactical poor in the past few years.
Good God Zulu, you cannot be serious!!
Remember Limerick 2014?
Horan matched Cafferkey with Donaghy  who outfielded him every time the ball was kicked in?
Not only did Horan fail to makes any changes to curb Donaghy's dominance but he set no one to mark Jamesy who went to toen on ballls bropken down by Donaghy. IIRC, Donaghy scored 2-7 that day.
The gruesome twosome got their P45s because they made a bulls of a job on the sideline in the first game against Dublin in 2015.The pair was later to claim one of the players left the notes prepared for the game behind him in the hotel and the players reared up on the poor, innocent managers because of this!
Rochford was getting a bollicking form all quarters up to last Sunday. He persisted in taking Andy Moran and Colm Boyle off around the 50 minute mark even though there was no obvious reason for doing so.
Okay, things went a thousand times better last Sunday but I believe that the players pressurised Rochford into making clearly necessary changes in tactics.
If any of the managers since O'Mahony got off the pot, had the tactical savvy of, say, Jim Gavin or Mickey Harte, the Mayo team would be up to its collective arse with Celtic crosses by now. ;D

You have no appreciation for what managers have achieved do you? You call them every name under the sun, but you might remember before Horan took over, John O'Mahony (who is somehow spared your disdain) led us to a defeat to Longford.
Horan took over that Autumn and led us to 4 connacht titles in a row, 4 semi finals in a row and 2 finals. Do you think he might have earned some respect for that? Do you think maybe tactics played a part in those achievements?

Oh yes I have and I've said it here many times that Horan worked wonders with Mayo but here I was answering a straight question with a straight answer.
I know damn well how much of a mess O'Mahony made of things but I was talking of poor tactical decisions made by the present and recent managers, again, in response to a straight question. So, who did I call every name under the sun?  I mentioned the 'gruesome twosome', a term that was widely applied to them during their time in charge. Nothing new abut that. While I'm at it, I had plenty to say about O'Mahony when he was in charge and you went apeshit attacking everything I had to say. I did ask you one time to point one single instance where I was wrong in my assessment of O'Mahony's tactics and general management and I'm still awaiting your answer.
Horan got his match ups wrong in Limerick and all the plamás in the world won't hide the fact that Donaghy destroyed Cafferkey that day. What good Horan undoubtedly did for Mayo football should not be used as an excuse for allowing Donaghy to score 2-7 and end Mayo's chances for another year.
There's no need to be so fecking patronising about Horan's achievements either. I know what he won as well as you do. I wasn't dismissing his achievements when I mentioned Donaghy v Cafferkey either. One can't be used to excuse the other.
The disagreement between Noel and Pateen and the team after the semifinal in 2015 and the recriminations that followed are common knowledge to most Mayo people. The players felt they had the winning of that game the first day and they felt that sideline decisions let them down.
Again, I accept that Rochford has been getting a barrage of criticism since taking over and most of it is unjustified, (in my opinion) but that doesn't hide the fact that he has been criticised from many quarters for his substitutions and personnel switches during every game this year up to last Monday. That's not a personal opinion either.
I have given Zulu a number of examples where I felt poor tactics either lost games or made the winning of them much harder than necessary. Nothing personal intended where any of the managers were concerned.

You sure have anger management issues and maybe you should consider some other more sedentary pastime like floral arrangement or talking a dog for long walks or something like that.
In all seriousness, you spend more time criticising others posters' opinions than any other member of the board and generally you get your facts arseways.
Have a nice day!

From within the county, Lar?
Yup.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

Lar Naparka

Quote from: twohands!!! on August 10, 2017, 09:07:02 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 10, 2017, 07:41:06 PM
Horan got his match ups wrong in Limerick and all the plamás in the world won't hide the fact that Donaghy destroyed Cafferkey that day. What good Horan undoubtedly did for Mayo football should not be used as an excuse for allowing Donaghy to score 2-7 and end Mayo's chances for another year.

Donaghy got one score in the drawn game one goal, JOD got 2-6.

This is the 2nd time today you said that Donaghy got 2-7.
Fair enough. It's just that JOD got most of his scores from breakdowns/ assists by Donaghy and I was writing in a hurry. Donaghy's goal was one of the softest I have seen at this level.. The ref was also responsible for making a bags of the game. Even Colm O'Rourke, his fellow-county man, said he gave an awful display and at the time he wrote this, Graham Reilly hadn't been given another intercounty game to ref. There were several factors that swung the game in Kerry's favour but Donaghy/O'Donaghue been were allowed a free hand throughout the game and that was an issue that Horan could have done something about.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

From the Bunker

Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 10, 2017, 09:55:59 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on August 10, 2017, 09:07:02 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 10, 2017, 07:41:06 PM
Horan got his match ups wrong in Limerick and all the plamás in the world won't hide the fact that Donaghy destroyed Cafferkey that day. What good Horan undoubtedly did for Mayo football should not be used as an excuse for allowing Donaghy to score 2-7 and end Mayo's chances for another year.

Donaghy got one score in the drawn game one goal, JOD got 2-6.

This is the 2nd time today you said that Donaghy got 2-7.
Fair enough. It's just that JOD got most of his scores from breakdowns/ assists by Donaghy and I was writing in a hurry. Donaghy's goal was one of the softest I have seen at this level.. The ref was also responsible for making a bags of the game. Even Colm O'Rourke, his fellow-county man, said he gave an awful display and at the time he wrote this, Graham Reilly hadn't been given another intercounty game to ref. There were several factors that swung the game in Kerry's favour but Donaghy/O'Donaghue been were allowed a free hand throughout the game and that was an issue that Horan could have done something about.

There was the madness of Cillian and Aido Blood subbed! this made switches a bit ropy as Horan was not sure if he'd have to sub off the lads. In the end Cormac Reilly, I'm told made Horan use up the Blood Sub for Cillian even though he came back on (so that was two subs used up instead of none).

IolarCoisCuain

#55
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 10, 2017, 09:46:14 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 10, 2017, 08:52:44 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 10, 2017, 07:41:06 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on August 10, 2017, 04:54:47 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 10, 2017, 01:13:07 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 09, 2017, 01:43:44 AM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 09, 2017, 12:07:43 AM
Quote from: Zulu on August 08, 2017, 11:23:28 PM
According to Colm Parkinson, Mayo pushed up on Roscommon's kickouts but left a Ros player free to force the keeper to kick to him and knowing where the kickout was headed the mayo players closest to the free Ros player were ready to swarm him. Tactics now are far more refined but I'd say Mayo are doing plenty.
Mayo losing to Galway,needing extra time to beat Cork,Derry and replay to overcome Roscommon would suggest Rochford is struggling with his tactics. Kerry beat Galway,Cork comfortably in 70 minutes and would do the same against Derry,Roscommon if they played them.

Don't think how Mayo do against teams outside the top 2 or 3 has anything to do with tactics, it's more to do with their attitude. I don't see any evidence that they've been tactical poor in the past few years.
Good God Zulu, you cannot be serious!!
Remember Limerick 2014?
Horan matched Cafferkey with Donaghy  who outfielded him every time the ball was kicked in?
Not only did Horan fail to makes any changes to curb Donaghy's dominance but he set no one to mark Jamesy who went to toen on ballls bropken down by Donaghy. IIRC, Donaghy scored 2-7 that day.
The gruesome twosome got their P45s because they made a bulls of a job on the sideline in the first game against Dublin in 2015.The pair was later to claim one of the players left the notes prepared for the game behind him in the hotel and the players reared up on the poor, innocent managers because of this!
Rochford was getting a bollicking form all quarters up to last Sunday. He persisted in taking Andy Moran and Colm Boyle off around the 50 minute mark even though there was no obvious reason for doing so.
Okay, things went a thousand times better last Sunday but I believe that the players pressurised Rochford into making clearly necessary changes in tactics.
If any of the managers since O'Mahony got off the pot, had the tactical savvy of, say, Jim Gavin or Mickey Harte, the Mayo team would be up to its collective arse with Celtic crosses by now. ;D

You have no appreciation for what managers have achieved do you? You call them every name under the sun, but you might remember before Horan took over, John O'Mahony (who is somehow spared your disdain) led us to a defeat to Longford.
Horan took over that Autumn and led us to 4 connacht titles in a row, 4 semi finals in a row and 2 finals. Do you think he might have earned some respect for that? Do you think maybe tactics played a part in those achievements?

Oh yes I have and I've said it here many times that Horan worked wonders with Mayo but here I was answering a straight question with a straight answer.
I know damn well how much of a mess O'Mahony made of things but I was talking of poor tactical decisions made by the present and recent managers, again, in response to a straight question. So, who did I call every name under the sun?  I mentioned the 'gruesome twosome', a term that was widely applied to them during their time in charge. Nothing new abut that. While I'm at it, I had plenty to say about O'Mahony when he was in charge and you went apeshit attacking everything I had to say. I did ask you one time to point one single instance where I was wrong in my assessment of O'Mahony's tactics and general management and I'm still awaiting your answer.
Horan got his match ups wrong in Limerick and all the plamás in the world won't hide the fact that Donaghy destroyed Cafferkey that day. What good Horan undoubtedly did for Mayo football should not be used as an excuse for allowing Donaghy to score 2-7 and end Mayo's chances for another year.
There's no need to be so fecking patronising about Horan's achievements either. I know what he won as well as you do. I wasn't dismissing his achievements when I mentioned Donaghy v Cafferkey either. One can't be used to excuse the other.
The disagreement between Noel and Pateen and the team after the semifinal in 2015 and the recriminations that followed are common knowledge to most Mayo people. The players felt they had the winning of that game the first day and they felt that sideline decisions let them down.
Again, I accept that Rochford has been getting a barrage of criticism since taking over and most of it is unjustified, (in my opinion) but that doesn't hide the fact that he has been criticised from many quarters for his substitutions and personnel switches during every game this year up to last Monday. That's not a personal opinion either.
I have given Zulu a number of examples where I felt poor tactics either lost games or made the winning of them much harder than necessary. Nothing personal intended where any of the managers were concerned.

You sure have anger management issues and maybe you should consider some other more sedentary pastime like floral arrangement or talking a dog for long walks or something like that.
In all seriousness, you spend more time criticising others posters' opinions than any other member of the board and generally you get your facts arseways.
Have a nice day!

From within the county, Lar?
Yup.

Rochford's been given a much softer ride than any of his predecessors going back to Mickey Moran. Of course, Mickey only lasted a year so he doesn't really count. Other than that, I can't think of any manager who didn't get treatment unless you're going back to John O'Mahony's first tour of duty in the late 'eighties.

If anything, the way Rochford is being talked about reminds me of the way people talked about Pat Holmes when he took over after Maughan in 1999/2000. Holmes was seen as Maughan's successor, in a way that Rochford hasn't been seen Horan's man - Horan's blessing would doom any prospective managerial candidate currently, allegedly - but there are echos of Holmes I in this Rochford Era. So far, anyway.

The best Mayo managers of the past 25 years are probably James Horan and John Maughan, and probably in that order. They are also two of most despised. What does that tell you about Mayo football?

Zulu

Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 10, 2017, 09:44:50 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 10, 2017, 06:26:50 PM
Lar, I think it's nonsense to say Mayo have been tactically out-thought on big days. When you play good teams they'll do some good things, unless you play 15 in defence there's always a risk that good forwards will find themselves in space and do damage, that's football. I can't remember the game but Gavin stood and watched one of his defenders get roasted and did nothing, Dublin won though so he was never questioned. When you lose All Ireland semis or finals everything is dissected and when you win everything is positive.

I agree on the substitutions, particularly taking off Moran but I often read here and elsewhere that managers 'got their tactics all wrong' but like a Trump election promise there is no detail. Maybe I'm not tactically aware but I haven't seen a whole lot wrong with what Mayo do. You haven't won an All Ireland due to your forwards IMO.
Yeah, but I didn't say that. I gave you two specific incidents where I felt poor tactical decisions led to Mayo's defeat. Nothing more. James Horan did a magnificent job of restoring pride in Mayo's players and fans alike and I'd be the last one to knock him but I did mention that he slipped up in Limerick and that's a fact, pure and simple.
You looked for an example: I gave you one.
Same goes for Holmes and Connelly.
I mentioned just one incident where they got a bollicking from the players over the way they failed to respond to problems arising on the field. (Well, that's the sanitised version.) Again, it was common knowledge at the time. I came up with nothing new.
With regard to Rochford, this year's games are still fresh in people's memories so I needn't go into detail.
Right now, he's a hero and fair dues to him, he had a blinder, same as his team but, and there's a big but..., Mayo were cat lucky to survive against all the qualifier teams they met.
Having said all that, I'm inclined to accept that our forwards have not been scoring enough from play to get us through the top endgames, quarters, semis and finals.
I think the forwards in the first game v Roscommon managed only 0-4 from play while the HB line scored 1-6.
That tells its own story.
However, whatever passed between Rochford and his players in the interim has had a profound influence on the players.
Every forward scored form play the last time, bagging 3-7 between them and Nally and Drake each got a point when they came on.
Not too bad by any standard.
I think Kerry must be treated with respect but I wouldn't fear them. They have had three relatively games en route to the semis with long spells of inactivity in between. If Mayo forwards reproduce the form they showed in the last match, anything could happen...

Fair enough Lar.

Il Bomber Destro

Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 10, 2017, 10:04:35 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 10, 2017, 09:46:14 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 10, 2017, 08:52:44 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 10, 2017, 07:41:06 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on August 10, 2017, 04:54:47 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 10, 2017, 01:13:07 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 09, 2017, 01:43:44 AM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 09, 2017, 12:07:43 AM
Quote from: Zulu on August 08, 2017, 11:23:28 PM
According to Colm Parkinson, Mayo pushed up on Roscommon's kickouts but left a Ros player free to force the keeper to kick to him and knowing where the kickout was headed the mayo players closest to the free Ros player were ready to swarm him. Tactics now are far more refined but I'd say Mayo are doing plenty.
Mayo losing to Galway,needing extra time to beat Cork,Derry and replay to overcome Roscommon would suggest Rochford is struggling with his tactics. Kerry beat Galway,Cork comfortably in 70 minutes and would do the same against Derry,Roscommon if they played them.

Don't think how Mayo do against teams outside the top 2 or 3 has anything to do with tactics, it's more to do with their attitude. I don't see any evidence that they've been tactical poor in the past few years.
Good God Zulu, you cannot be serious!!
Remember Limerick 2014?
Horan matched Cafferkey with Donaghy  who outfielded him every time the ball was kicked in?
Not only did Horan fail to makes any changes to curb Donaghy's dominance but he set no one to mark Jamesy who went to toen on ballls bropken down by Donaghy. IIRC, Donaghy scored 2-7 that day.
The gruesome twosome got their P45s because they made a bulls of a job on the sideline in the first game against Dublin in 2015.The pair was later to claim one of the players left the notes prepared for the game behind him in the hotel and the players reared up on the poor, innocent managers because of this!
Rochford was getting a bollicking form all quarters up to last Sunday. He persisted in taking Andy Moran and Colm Boyle off around the 50 minute mark even though there was no obvious reason for doing so.
Okay, things went a thousand times better last Sunday but I believe that the players pressurised Rochford into making clearly necessary changes in tactics.
If any of the managers since O'Mahony got off the pot, had the tactical savvy of, say, Jim Gavin or Mickey Harte, the Mayo team would be up to its collective arse with Celtic crosses by now. ;D

You have no appreciation for what managers have achieved do you? You call them every name under the sun, but you might remember before Horan took over, John O'Mahony (who is somehow spared your disdain) led us to a defeat to Longford.
Horan took over that Autumn and led us to 4 connacht titles in a row, 4 semi finals in a row and 2 finals. Do you think he might have earned some respect for that? Do you think maybe tactics played a part in those achievements?

Oh yes I have and I've said it here many times that Horan worked wonders with Mayo but here I was answering a straight question with a straight answer.
I know damn well how much of a mess O'Mahony made of things but I was talking of poor tactical decisions made by the present and recent managers, again, in response to a straight question. So, who did I call every name under the sun?  I mentioned the 'gruesome twosome', a term that was widely applied to them during their time in charge. Nothing new abut that. While I'm at it, I had plenty to say about O'Mahony when he was in charge and you went apeshit attacking everything I had to say. I did ask you one time to point one single instance where I was wrong in my assessment of O'Mahony's tactics and general management and I'm still awaiting your answer.
Horan got his match ups wrong in Limerick and all the plamás in the world won't hide the fact that Donaghy destroyed Cafferkey that day. What good Horan undoubtedly did for Mayo football should not be used as an excuse for allowing Donaghy to score 2-7 and end Mayo's chances for another year.
There's no need to be so fecking patronising about Horan's achievements either. I know what he won as well as you do. I wasn't dismissing his achievements when I mentioned Donaghy v Cafferkey either. One can't be used to excuse the other.
The disagreement between Noel and Pateen and the team after the semifinal in 2015 and the recriminations that followed are common knowledge to most Mayo people. The players felt they had the winning of that game the first day and they felt that sideline decisions let them down.
Again, I accept that Rochford has been getting a barrage of criticism since taking over and most of it is unjustified, (in my opinion) but that doesn't hide the fact that he has been criticised from many quarters for his substitutions and personnel switches during every game this year up to last Monday. That's not a personal opinion either.
I have given Zulu a number of examples where I felt poor tactics either lost games or made the winning of them much harder than necessary. Nothing personal intended where any of the managers were concerned.

You sure have anger management issues and maybe you should consider some other more sedentary pastime like floral arrangement or talking a dog for long walks or something like that.
In all seriousness, you spend more time criticising others posters' opinions than any other member of the board and generally you get your facts arseways.
Have a nice day!

From within the county, Lar?
Yup.

Rochford's been given a much softer ride than any of his predecessors going back to Mickey Moran. Of course, Mickey only lasted a year so he doesn't really count. Other than that, I can't think of any manager who didn't get treatment unless you're going back to John O'Mahony's first tour of duty in the late 'eighties.

If anything, the way Rochford is being talked about reminds me of the way people talked about Pat Holmes when he took over after Maughan in 1999/2000. Holmes was seen as Maughan's successor, in a way that Rochford hasn't been seen Horan's man - Horan's blessing would doom any prospective managerial candidate currently, allegedly - but there are echos of Holmes I in this Rochford Era. So far, anyway.

The best Mayo managers of the past 25 years are probably James Horan and John Maughan, and probably in that order. They are also two of most despised. What does that tell you about Mayo football?

Is Horan really despised in Mayo? I've only really seen good press of him on here from the Mayo fans.