The ulster rugby trial

[Owen Brannigan]

If they get off, Jackson will have no problem in getting a contract with any English or French club.  Olding would struggle to get a professional contract with a Championship side in England.  Will be interesting to see how Ulster Rugby extricates itself from Jackson's and Olding's contracts if found not guilty. 

Ulster Rugby is putting considerable PR efforts to promote their new squeaky clean, boy wonder, Stockdale as the next couple of weeks will not be good it.  Already had former players Paddy Wallace and Simon Danielli in court during the last year and the current court case continues to be associated with Ulster Rugby. Never mind the downward spiral in performance on the field.

[seafoid]

"Got herself into a situation" were my words not AZs obviously. I don't want to misrepresent anyone.

Do people ever have to warn their sons about their actions on a night out? Or is it just the daughters we should be concentrating on?

Wouldn't know what other parents do but I know I gave life advice to my kids, boys and girls, that includes their actions have reactions and be wary. There is no rule book or manual on being a parent you hope things work out!

When you have teenagers you can give them that pep talk

Absolutely. Anyone who isn't giving that life advice isn't really being a parent. Not to say I'm dad of the year. I spend too much time engaged in pointless arguments on Internet forums for a start.

But then you win an All Ireland

[GetOverTheBar]

If they get off, Jackson will have no problem in getting a contract with any English or French club.  Olding would struggle to get a professional contract with a Championship side in England.  Will be interesting to see how Ulster Rugby extricates itself from Jackson's and Olding's contracts if found not guilty. 

Ulster Rugby is putting considerable PR efforts to promote their new squeaky clean, boy wonder, Stockdale as the next couple of weeks will not be good it.  Already had former players Paddy Wallace and Simon Danielli in court during the last year and the current court case continues to be associated with Ulster Rugby. Never mind the downward spiral in performance on the field.

I'd say he would have absolutely no problem getting a contract in England tbh in so far as his talent goes, maybe France will be the place he ends up however with the baggage.

[Milltown Row2]

Would Australia not be good for PJ should he get off?

[Over the Bar]

Would Australia not be good for PJ should he get off?

Contract for a French  club already agreed apparently!

[Milltown Row2]

Would Australia not be good for PJ should he get off?

Contract for a French  club already agreed apparently!

Be hard to play if convicted! Unless the French know something and forgot to tell Syferus

[Avondhu star]

"Got herself into a situation" were my words not AZs obviously. I don't want to misrepresent anyone.

Do people ever have to warn their sons about their actions on a night out? Or is it just the daughters we should be concentrating on?

Yes people have to do this. A local Garda came into our lads secondary school and spoke to the fifth and sixth years. He spellt out fairly clearly the legal position re assaults on the street, possession of drugs, sex offences and road traffic offences. Parents got a handout explaining what the procedure would be if their son was arrested and charged with different type offences.
There had been a serious assault involving past pupils resulting in a few lads facing a prison sentence. They were kept in custody for a few days while waiting for bail terms to be agreed and it opened their eyes to what they might be facing

[Taylor]

I would tend to agree with MR2. Given her background and who she was there is a high likelihood that she knew Jackson at least. She may never have met him nor knew what he was like but it's not a huge jump to suggest that she knew who he was. It is supposition I know but a pretty educated guess.

If I remember correctly it said in earlier evidence that she has had met him once before when she was working as a promotions girl I think and had handed him a pint of Guinness which would have wemt against her saying she hadn't seen/met him before

[Tony Baloney]

If she went to a Belfast grammar school she has heard of Jackson. To suggest otherwise is rubbish.

[Tony Baloney]

If she went to a Belfast grammar school she has heard of Jackson. To suggest otherwise is rubbish.

That's crazy, Tony.

Not in the slightest. Obviously excluding fenian schools.

[brokencrossbar1]

If she went to a Belfast grammar school she has heard of Jackson. To suggest otherwise is rubbish.

I believe they went to the same school albeit it not at the same time. If she did she knew who he was, no doubt.

[RealSpiritof98]

The worrying aspect for me is this  I've been at two round table events during this trial and the men have been in favour of the men and the women have strongly been on the side of the alleged victim. The thing it we live in a pc society that doesn't actor behave in a pc way.

[seafoid]

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/nicola-anderson-at-rugby-rape-trial-draw-a-distinction-between-consent-and-submission-jury-told-36740003.html

"The complaint at the heart of the case had been "devoid of detail" – and that inconsistencies in the alleged victim's account were not down to "trauma" but "wild exaggeration" and "downright false allegation".
He said the woman's evidence was of "hopeless quality", adding that "the investigation, testing and evaluation of this complaint was at best poor – at worst virtually non-existent".


"

Standard adversarial defence

But the judge :

""Consent has a particular legal meaning," she pointed out. "A woman consents if she agrees by choice and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice."

The young woman had told the jury she did not consent. Mr Jackson told them that not only did she consent to sexual activity, but that she had instigated it.

Then the judge warned them that when considering the issue of consent, it is important "to draw a distinction between consent and submission".

"Consent in some situations may be given enthusiastically, whereas in others it is given with reluctance – but nevertheless it is still consent," she said.

"Where, however, a woman is so overcome by fear that she lacks any capacity either to give consent or to resist, that woman does not consent but is submitting to what takes place."

And she said the prosecution does not have to prove that a woman resisted physically or that she said she did not consent.

Here, Judge Smyth advised the jury to apply their "combined good sense, experience and knowledge of human behaviour and modern behaviour to all the relevant facts"

[Orior]

For Syberus...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-kWbvWYAnvY

[Asal Mor]

There you go again. She got herself into "this situation". There was no "situation" until she was allegedly raped.

I would consider a 19 year old girl being drunk in a house with 4 very drunk men she doesn't know "a situation".

Earlier you said this situation fell into the 90% of cases where the perp is known to or acquainted with the victim. Now you're saying she didn't know them. Which is it?

We were talking about a study you mentioned which said that 90% of victims knew or were acquainted with their abusers and you asked if I was suggesting that people would have to stop socialising with people they know in order to prevent attacks. I said I imagined she would fall into the 90% category rather than the other 10% depending on how they defined that.

We know how well they knew each other. PJ couldn't remember her name and she couldn't remember Olding's.