Westminster Election 12th December 2019

[trailer]

I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.

A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Yes. This is widely accepted by all Nationalist parties. What is your proposal? That the ROI pays financially alone? Without even UK government political support?

Since when has all these nationalist parties you speak of accepted British interference even in a united Ireland? A united ireland that still means the UK has an input in our politics? I must have missed that one...
The UK government can't even get their own mess in order without suggesting they're going to be needed over here in the event of a united Ireland. 
After the UK leaves the EU, a united Ireland economy inside the EU would grow by over 35 billion inside the first few years alone. So it's not a case of whether the south can afford us, but it makes economic sense for everyone.

I'm not talking about interference. You are.
It is extremely naive to think that a place costing 11billion a year won't need financial support in the event of a UI. It's even more naive to think it can work without the support of the UK Government. But lookit if you think an economy that grows by 35 billion will have that sort of money then yep lets cut all ties. Unfortunately I think reality might bite pretty quickly.

[trailer]

"I... swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.

Members who object to swearing the oath are permitted to make a solemn affirmation under the terms of the Oaths Act 1978:

I... do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law."

The SF position is they are not prepared to swear or affirm true allegiance to the British Queen. Though I would prefer representation in Westminster, this would involve Chris Hazzard taking the oath/affirmation, and his position is clearly that he won't do that , as a matter of principle. Whereas  SDLP are
Mandated to follow this British directive for the benefit of their constituents, SF are also mandated not to take this oath/affirmation.
Those that would berate SF for taking this understandable position ( given their raison d'etre) are perhaps missing the point, clearly agreed in the GFA: ie that both identities are on an equal footing here. However elected representatives from the Irish community here are expected to take an oath/affirmation of allegiance to a foreign monarch in order to represent their constituents in Parliament. Of note , this non-elected monarch must also be leader of a particular religion . This position like many things here which don't have the British and Irish identities on an equal footing , is actually in contravention with the spirit and wording of the internationally accepted GFA, as I see it.
I would actually agree that several SDLP politicians have and continue to have a major positive impact on political progress here. It seems to me that most in the perceived Irish tradition in the North are caught between 2 stools, 1. To drive towards a UI and make NI ungovernable and 2. To allow a UI to happen gradually whilst not neglecting the important things :jobs/education/health/rights.
Those 2 "factions" in the Irish community unfortunately have been prone to targeting each other as opposed to isolating the DUP and trying to convince unionists and ROI that an All-Island solution is workable. Both factions would agree on most things including respect and fostering of the British tradition within any All-Island solution . The biggest block to progress , which will be unpalatable to many in SF, is the anger about the IRA campaign. Regardless of any perceived justification for that campaign, a large proportion of people were traumatised and embittered by it. If we are going to get unionists engaged with the possibility of an All-Island solution 3 things need to happen: 1. The economic argument has to be compelling and Britain will have to part finance the transition 2. Republicanism will have to better explain the reasons for their campaign and apologise for the hurt with genuine remorse 3. Unionism and the British state will have to recognise and apologise for their conduct ( discrimination, state killings, collusion, lack of respect for the Irish identity) in 100 years of the failed sectarian-based NI.
It's quite simple what republicanism has to do and must visibly show understanding and empathy for victims and the unionist position. The challenge for Britain/unionism is similar but as they are currently "in power" they must visibly Be seen to promote the equal value of the British and Irish traditions here., as per the GFA. One big step in that regard would be altering the parliamentary oath/affirmation for those MPs with an Irish identity

Cool. Totally get that. Doesn't want to swear the oath. (You actually don't have to but whatever that's a different argument) My response is simply don't stand.
Decisions are made in Westminster whether we like it or not. Indeed it's at the behest of the NI Secretary of State to call a Unity referendum. Where better to make that argument than the HOC?

[Rossfan]

Good luck with Item 3 Sam.
Unionists are still 120% convinced that they have never ever done anything untoward to the Nationalist Community.

[yellowcard]

I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.

A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Whether you care to accept it or not, this will be a reality. Not even the most romantic dreamer would claim that it will be some sort of economic utopia from day 1. It would have to be carefully managed and would probably take 10 years or more to be fully operational in terms of the integration of sectors within the all island economy. Not to mention working out how to subsume education and health sectors. There may be short term pain which may require a gradual phasing out of UK subvention monies which I think UK government could be willing to pay if it meant a complete withdrawal was assured.

Even politically speaking there may have to be some sort of role for Stormont inside a new unified Ireland whilst the transition is being made and I think most rational people would be ok with that.

[Rossfan]

It will be a Condederation of 2 "Home Rule" areas - present 6 and 26 Cos.

[Chief]

I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.

A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Whether you care to accept it or not, this will be a reality. Not even the most romantic dreamer would claim that it will be some sort of economic utopia from day 1. It would have to be carefully managed and would probably take 10 years or more to be fully operational in terms of the integration of sectors within the all island economy. Not to mention working out how to subsume education and health sectors. There may be short term pain which may require a gradual phasing out of UK subvention monies which I think UK government could be willing to pay if it meant a complete withdrawal was assured.

Even politically speaking there may have to be some sort of role for Stormont inside a new unified Ireland whilst the transition is being made and I think most rational people would be ok with that.

There is no point asking for independence if we aren’t prepared to pay our own bills and accept the financial and economic consequences. Post independence  British subventions have no place in any mature conversation on a United Ireland. Why would they pay the costs but then neglect to take a share in any future economic benefits?

[Farrandeelin]

I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.

A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Whether you care to accept it or not, this will be a reality. Not even the most romantic dreamer would claim that it will be some sort of economic utopia from day 1. It would have to be carefully managed and would probably take 10 years or more to be fully operational in terms of the integration of sectors within the all island economy. Not to mention working out how to subsume education and health sectors. There may be short term pain which may require a gradual phasing out of UK subvention monies which I think UK government could be willing to pay if it meant a complete withdrawal was assured.

Even politically speaking there may have to be some sort of role for Stormont inside a new unified Ireland whilst the transition is being made and I think most rational people would be ok with that.

I wouldn't trust the Brits to pay. For anything.

[seafoid]

It will be a Condederation of 2 "Home Rule" areas - present 6 and 26 Cos.

It might be reconfigured with just Antrim and Down the way things are going

[Jell 0 Biafra]

I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.

A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Whether you care to accept it or not, this will be a reality. Not even the most romantic dreamer would claim that it will be some sort of economic utopia from day 1. It would have to be carefully managed and would probably take 10 years or more to be fully operational in terms of the integration of sectors within the all island economy. Not to mention working out how to subsume education and health sectors. There may be short term pain which may require a gradual phasing out of UK subvention monies which I think UK government could be willing to pay if it meant a complete withdrawal was assured.

Even politically speaking there may have to be some sort of role for Stormont inside a new unified Ireland whilst the transition is being made and I think most rational people would be ok with that.

I wouldn't trust the Brits to pay. For anything.

Unless there's a Hell. They'd pay then, alright.

[trailer]

I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.

A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Whether you care to accept it or not, this will be a reality. Not even the most romantic dreamer would claim that it will be some sort of economic utopia from day 1. It would have to be carefully managed and would probably take 10 years or more to be fully operational in terms of the integration of sectors within the all island economy. Not to mention working out how to subsume education and health sectors. There may be short term pain which may require a gradual phasing out of UK subvention monies which I think UK government could be willing to pay if it meant a complete withdrawal was assured.

Even politically speaking there may have to be some sort of role for Stormont inside a new unified Ireland whilst the transition is being made and I think most rational people would be ok with that.

There is no point asking for independence if we aren't prepared to pay our own bills and accept the financial and economic consequences. Post independence  British subventions have no place in any mature conversation on a United Ireland. Why would they pay the costs but then neglect to take a share in any future economic benefits?

Well then why are the EU asking the Brits to pay up? Should they be allowed to walk away from their financial commitments? Remember this will be a UK withdrawal. Same as with the EU.
There's a real immaturity on show here with a few posters. Any new Ireland will still be have an economy deeply linked with the UK. That's going to need support from the UK government especially politically.
If Unionists have a long way to go, this thread shows that many Nationalists and Republicans also have a long road to travel. 

[Lar Naparka]

I honestly think that the Brits would like nothing better than being able to get to hell out of Norn Iron and stick the Brexit  barrier in the Irish Sea and keep all and everything from that blasted place out by all means possible.
But they can't walk away and that's a cold, hard reality.
For one thing they are responsible for most of the troubles there and it's only fair, if nothing else, that they should pay the bills for the historical damage they caused. That's natural justice.
But there are far more immediate problems than that.
There's roughly 1 and a quarter million people who want to keep the strongest possible link with Britain and there are elements there who will resort to violence, if and when, any attempt is made to end British rule.
There will never be a peaceful transition and anybody who thinks otherwise is living in an alternate universe.
Norn Iron was never meant to be self-sustaining as there never was enough of a population there for this to be possible and the Brits always accepted that keep the link with charming people like Arlene and Sammy and Ian Óg was going to cost them serious money.
There is no  way the republic could or would consider making up the shortfall without help from those who caused most of the problems to begin with.
Down here we can't handle our housing, homelessness or health problems as it is never mind coming up with the billions it would take to finance a UI now or at any time in the foreseeable future.

[Rossfan]

Population of the 6 Cos c1.9m
Hardly 1.25m Unionists/Brits Farr??

[RadioGAAGAA]

If Unionists have a long way to go, this thread shows that many Nationalists and Republicans also have a long road to travel.

Not often I agree with ye - but your bang on here.

[and among those that have furthest to travel are Sinn f**king Fein]

[BennyCake]

I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.

A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Whether you care to accept it or not, this will be a reality. Not even the most romantic dreamer would claim that it will be some sort of economic utopia from day 1. It would have to be carefully managed and would probably take 10 years or more to be fully operational in terms of the integration of sectors within the all island economy. Not to mention working out how to subsume education and health sectors. There may be short term pain which may require a gradual phasing out of UK subvention monies which I think UK government could be willing to pay if it meant a complete withdrawal was assured.

Even politically speaking there may have to be some sort of role for Stormont inside a new unified Ireland whilst the transition is being made and I think most rational people would be ok with that.

There is no point asking for independence if we aren't prepared to pay our own bills and accept the financial and economic consequences. Post independence  British subventions have no place in any mature conversation on a United Ireland. Why would they pay the costs but then neglect to take a share in any future economic benefits?

Well then why are the EU asking the Brits to pay up? Should they be allowed to walk away from their financial commitments? Remember this will be a UK withdrawal. Same as with the EU.
There's a real immaturity on show here with a few posters. Any new Ireland will still be have an economy deeply linked with the UK. That's going to need support from the UK government especially politically.
If Unionists have a long way to go, this thread shows that many Nationalists and Republicans also have a long road to travel.

Part of the independent deal in 1922 was that Ireland had to pay some of Britain's WW1 debt. I'm not sure how long that took to pay off.

Effectively, Britain walked out of the South, and it was the Irish who paid for it. This was after years of violence and civil war. So, this thing about Britain having to mop up the mess from the Troubles, pay for bringing some prosperity to the North... don't kid yourselves, they'd wash their hands and piss off in the morning without a second thought.

[Chief]

I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.

A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Whether you care to accept it or not, this will be a reality. Not even the most romantic dreamer would claim that it will be some sort of economic utopia from day 1. It would have to be carefully managed and would probably take 10 years or more to be fully operational in terms of the integration of sectors within the all island economy. Not to mention working out how to subsume education and health sectors. There may be short term pain which may require a gradual phasing out of UK subvention monies which I think UK government could be willing to pay if it meant a complete withdrawal was assured.

Even politically speaking there may have to be some sort of role for Stormont inside a new unified Ireland whilst the transition is being made and I think most rational people would be ok with that.

There is no point asking for independence if we aren't prepared to pay our own bills and accept the financial and economic consequences. Post independence  British subventions have no place in any mature conversation on a United Ireland. Why would they pay the costs but then neglect to take a share in any future economic benefits?

Well then why are the EU asking the Brits to pay up? Should they be allowed to walk away from their financial commitments? Remember this will be a UK withdrawal. Same as with the EU.
There's a real immaturity on show here with a few posters. Any new Ireland will still be have an economy deeply linked with the UK. That's going to need support from the UK government especially politically.
If Unionists have a long way to go, this thread shows that many Nationalists and Republicans also have a long road to travel.

I think your confusing the economy with payments.

Of course the economy in the north will remain linked closely to GB - it goes without saying (almost).

In terms of payments, GB might - might- agree to fund the commitments they already made to NI in GB budgets. In return they'll want the ROI to take on NI's share of sovereign debt, public sector pensions, etc etc.

Any notion of any further "goodwill" payments from GB to help a UI become a success will be a no-go from their perspective. Why would they? From their perspective after all it is us that would be leaving them.

A UI will have to stand on its own two feet from day one, and it will have to either borrow, raise taxes, or cut public services to do so. That's the harsh reality of it. The trick is persuading people that this is a price worth paying , if we're not willing to pay that price then we don't deserve independence,