Ashers cake controversy.

Started by T Fearon, November 07, 2014, 06:36:39 PM

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oisinog

At the end of the day here Ashers could have declined the job easier by saying eg I'm sorry we are busy we will be unable to complete the job by the date you requested, Due to copywrite laws I am unable to produce an Image of Bert and Ernie without written permission from the owner of the copywrite.

Ashers decided to take the stance that as they on religious grounds they do not agree with the message at the end of the day that is discrimination and the courts found that

Were they targeted quite possibly, where they wrong in the eyes of the law yes. Will this help the agenda of same sex marriage in Northern Ireland I hope so

omaghjoe

Quote from: easytiger95 on October 25, 2016, 04:45:52 PM
You weren't talking biology, you were talking psychology. I like the Trumpian pivot though.

Ehh Trump couldnt pivot if he was on a feckin seesaw?

Anyway main discussion subject aside Whats the difference between these two? In medical terms arent they believed to be the same thing, joined up by Neuropsychology?


easytiger95

Another thread to hijack Joe? Down the rabbit hole with you

seafoid

I only know the name of one bakery in Belfast...
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

omaghjoe

Quote from: easytiger95 on October 25, 2016, 05:26:29 PM
Another thread to hijack Joe? Down the rabbit hole with you

Oh just asking questions Tiger, I can offer you my sincere apologies if I offended you

Here's a tip tho.... considering you dont know me or anything about me or even if Im a bot (like seafoid ;)) try to ignore my username and stick to the points I make or questions I ask, it should reduce your stress levels

BTW speaking of down the rabbit hole, Ive been having a think about that article you posted on the other thread...was gonna post an analysis of the authors point (Note: his point, not the point you tried to hijack for) if your interested?

easytiger95

I have no stress with you Joe, I just prefer to sticking to the point of the thread (a case which the central theme was discrimination against homosexuals, which was why I was pointing out Seafoid's generalisations about homosexuals) rather than getting into a discussion with you about neuro -psychology.

If you want to start a thread about quantum physics, please go ahead - you need neither my permission nor my participation.


seafoid

The Ashers owners are evangelical

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/24/born-again-christian-ashers-bakery-lose-court-appeal-in-gay-cake-row
A bakery in Northern Ireland owned by evangelical Christians has lost an appeal to overturn a conviction that found it guilty of discrimination for refusing to bake a pro-gay-marriage themed cake."Speaking before going into the appeal court on Monday morning, Daniel McArthur had said: "This has never been about the customer. It has been about a message promoting a cause that contradicts the Bible."

Evangelicals take a literal view of the Bible
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism
"Biblicism is reverence for the Bible and a high regard for biblical authority. All Evangelicals believe in biblical inspiration, though they disagree over how this inspiration should be defined. Many Evangelicals believe in biblical inerrancy, while other Evangelicals believe in biblical infallibility"

It is not the same as RTE Guide readers who like Aonghus MacGrianna and think he deserves the same as everyone else.

Evangelicals vs gay rights activists is 2 immovable objects
Evangelicals think differently

Would Ashers provide a cake with confession or the Virgin mary in icing? Probably not. But why would a catholic wind them up ?
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

seafoid

They should have gone to McCarrons bakery in Dromore.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

seafoid

Quote from: easytiger95 on October 25, 2016, 04:45:52 PM
You weren't talking biology, you were talking psychology. I like the Trumpian pivot though.
You think the psychology is the same?
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

seafoid

"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Main Street

#415
Quote from: oisinog on October 25, 2016, 05:14:13 PM
At the end of the day here Ashers could have declined the job easier by saying eg I'm sorry we are busy we will be unable to complete the job by the date you requested,
In other words you are saying the Ashers could have lied, that they could have adopted a low ethical and moral position by knowingly telling a falsehood, but at the same time an entirely accepted legally position because then the burden rests on the gay couple to find enough evidence to prove that the bakery was not too busy.
And what if the gay couple did happen to find good quality evidence that the bakery was able to fulfill a similar order placed the next day within the time frame in question? what then?  The Ashtons would then have to compound lies with more lies. Still, in court one can get away with telling obvious lies as long as there was not enough evidence to prove  that they were lies.
QuoteDue to copywrite laws I am unable to produce an Image of Bert and Ernie without written permission from the owner of the copywrite.

Ashers decided to take the stance that as they on religious grounds they do not agree with the message at the end of the day that is discrimination and the courts found that

Were they targeted quite possibly, where they wrong in the eyes of the law yes. Will this help the agenda of same sex marriage in Northern Ireland I hope so

The Ashers could have told the truth but with legal advice take a different stance whilst maintaining their 'moral'position.
They could have told bert and ernie that the bakery employees have strong religious reservations and refuse to work on the order, but the business (the bakery) is duty bound to complete the order, that the bakery can advertise for a baker but that will take time or the Ashtons can find another bakery to complete the order.
Employees are allowed to exercise religious objections but not the business offering the service.

omaghjoe

Quote from: easytiger95 on October 25, 2016, 06:03:12 PM
I have no stress with you Joe, I just prefer to sticking to the point of the thread (a case which the central theme was discrimination against homosexuals, which was why I was pointing out Seafoid's generalisations about homosexuals) rather than getting into a discussion with you about neuro -psychology.

If you want to start a thread about quantum physics, please go ahead - you need neither my permission nor my participation.

I was picking up a point that you had made ET about psychology and biology being different. The accuracy of that statement would be crucial to your counter of seafoids point, I was merely asking if it was correct or not (as its against the current prevailing thought in medical terms), cos unless it was an accurate statement your counter collapses. Not that Im actually on either side of the discussion but the validity of your statement is very debatable.

It was more meta than quantum, but anyway dont think there is alot of interest on here so Id be wasting my time. I thought you might have been since you posted it, but it would appear not.

Are you sure you dont get stressed? You always you seem to be fierce angry with me?

easytiger95

It's not Ashers motivations I'm questioning - I know full well what the Evangelical attitude is towards homosexuality, and the case itself is a difficult one, which I would not have liked to have had to judged.


It's your motivations - for the following statements

QuoteYou dont have to be a religious fundi to find the Grindr way of life sad.

Which is a really crude generalisation, reductive of the homosexual community, and completely irrelevant given that gay marriage, which is a monogamous commitment, was the cause that they were making the cake for.

QuoteWomen have different wiring than men so finding them ready and gagging within 50 metres takes more work, typically. 

Another generalisation, which I doubt you'd get away with to an audience of women.

Basically, it takes all sorts, there's nowt as queer as folk, and the reducing of people to categories (dubious ones at that) is exactly the kind of thing which causes these controversies in the first place.

And I'm sorry, but at a very basic level, although the cake shop in Dromore might do a lovely gay marriage cake, recommending that you have to go there rather than Ashers, could be taken as saying "well, use that ould water fountain over there, it's as good as this one."

I can understand if people feel that the gay couple in question were being provocateurs, I honestly do, and people have a right to live by their faith. But two things here - firstly, even Jesus himself recognized the need to reconcile the secular with the religious ("Render unto Caesar")

And secondly, if you're a gay person living in a society that denies you a right that is available to all others, than it is an easy logical step to make to actively provoke the authorities to highlight the injustice - and in a country with such a strong record of Civil Rights protesting, that should be easy to recognise.




easytiger95

Quote from: omaghjoe on October 25, 2016, 07:12:44 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on October 25, 2016, 06:03:12 PM
I have no stress with you Joe, I just prefer to sticking to the point of the thread (a case which the central theme was discrimination against homosexuals, which was why I was pointing out Seafoid's generalisations about homosexuals) rather than getting into a discussion with you about neuro -psychology.

If you want to start a thread about quantum physics, please go ahead - you need neither my permission nor my participation.

I was picking up a point that you had made ET about psychology and biology being different. The accuracy of that statement would be crucial to your counter of seafoids point, I was merely asking if it was correct or not (as its against the current prevailing thought in medical terms), cos unless it was an accurate statement your counter collapses. Not that Im actually on either side of the discussion but the validity of your statement is very debatable.

It was more meta than quantum, but anyway dont think there is alot of interest on here so Id be wasting my time. I thought you might have been since you posted it, but it would appear not.

Are you sure you dont get stressed? You always you seem to be fierce angry with me?

I'm confident in my argument as it stands Joe, with or without your judgement on the matter. Not angry at all with you, just not wasting my time with you. Big difference.

seafoid

Quote from: oisinog on October 25, 2016, 05:14:13 PM
At the end of the day here Ashers could have declined the job easier by saying eg I'm sorry we are busy we will be unable to complete the job by the date you requested, Due to copywrite laws I am unable to produce an Image of Bert and Ernie without written permission from the owner of the copywrite.

Ashers decided to take the stance that as they on religious grounds they do not agree with the message at the end of the day that is discrimination and the courts found that

Were they targeted quite possibly, where they wrong in the eyes of the law yes. Will this help the agenda of same sex marriage in Northern Ireland I hope so
I don't think it will help the cause.
Winding up people through the courts is very risky
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU