Ashers cake controversy.

Started by T Fearon, November 07, 2014, 06:36:39 PM

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AZOffaly

It doesn't feel right to me either. If somebody makes posters as their business, but is strongly against Fine Gael for example, does he have to accept their order to print Fine Gael election posters?

I appreciate the distinction and the discrimination aspect of it, but at the end of the day it is the right or not of someone to offer their professional services to a customer they don't feel  they can do business with.

gallsman

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 19, 2015, 11:38:33 AM
It doesn't feel right to me either. If somebody makes posters as their business, but is strongly against Fine Gael for example, does he have to accept their order to print Fine Gael election posters?

I appreciate the distinction and the discrimination aspect of it, but at the end of the day it is the right or not of someone to offer their professional services to a customer they don't feel  they can do business with.

Agreed. What worries me is that the judge found they discriminated against Mr. Lee personally on the grounds of his sexual orientation. If I, a straight man, had asked for the same cake to be baked and was refused, what grounds would they be guilty on?

armaghniac

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 19, 2015, 11:38:33 AM
It doesn't feel right to me either. If somebody makes posters as their business, but is strongly against Fine Gael for example, does he have to accept their order to print Fine Gael election posters?

I appreciate the distinction and the discrimination aspect of it, but at the end of the day it is the right or not of someone to offer their professional services to a customer they don't feel  they can do business with.

It raises issues to be sure. I don't think large quoted companies can be allowed pick and choose, I think a one man business probably should, on the basis of free association. I suppose this case is somewhere in between. What happens if a business states in its T&Cs that it may refuse political commissions?
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

deiseach

I know it's a different jurisdiction, but the principle in this verdict is why I think that assurances from the Irish government that religious solemnisers will not be obliged to perform same-sex marriage are not worth very much.

Orior

Another nail in the coffin for ulster unionists.
Cover me in chocolate and feed me to the lesbians

deiseach

Quote from: Orior on May 19, 2015, 11:50:04 AM
Another nail in the coffin for ulster unionists.

Another reason for the kind of people who get their knickers in a twist over flegs to get the tribe out on election day.

muppet

Quote from: deiseach on May 19, 2015, 11:49:39 AM
I know it's a different jurisdiction, but the principle in this verdict is why I think that assurances from the Irish government that religious solemnisers will not be obliged to perform same-sex marriage are not worth very much.

I can't wait for that referendum.

Back to current affairs, I am actually not that comfortable with the Ashers decision. Obviously it was found to be discrimination because it falls under on of the legal definitions of discrimination, thus refusing to print a Fine Gael poster is not relevant. However freedom, of expression, religious, sexual or whatever, must also allow for the freedom to say no to something, otherwise it is not freedom of anything.

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deiseach

Quote from: muppet on May 19, 2015, 11:54:40 AM
Quote from: deiseach on May 19, 2015, 11:49:39 AM
I know it's a different jurisdiction, but the principle in this verdict is why I think that assurances from the Irish government that religious solemnisers will not be obliged to perform same-sex marriage are not worth very much.

I can't wait for that referendum.

Why would there need to be a referendum?


muppet

Quote from: deiseach on May 19, 2015, 11:55:50 AM
Quote from: muppet on May 19, 2015, 11:54:40 AM
Quote from: deiseach on May 19, 2015, 11:49:39 AM
I know it's a different jurisdiction, but the principle in this verdict is why I think that assurances from the Irish government that religious solemnisers will not be obliged to perform same-sex marriage are not worth very much.

I can't wait for that referendum.

Why would there need to be a referendum?

So that they can include man-sheep, woman-dog and straw-man marriages.
MWWSI 2017

DuffleKing


I'm sure there are substantial legal costs on both sides here also?

armaghniac

Quote from: muppet on May 19, 2015, 11:54:40 AM
Quote from: deiseach on May 19, 2015, 11:49:39 AM
I know it's a different jurisdiction, but the principle in this verdict is why I think that assurances from the Irish government that religious solemnisers will not be obliged to perform same-sex marriage are not worth very much.

I can't wait for that referendum.

It's on Friday, you won't have long to wait.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

deiseach

Quote from: muppet on May 19, 2015, 12:03:04 PM
Quote from: deiseach on May 19, 2015, 11:55:50 AM
Quote from: muppet on May 19, 2015, 11:54:40 AM
Quote from: deiseach on May 19, 2015, 11:49:39 AM
I know it's a different jurisdiction, but the principle in this verdict is why I think that assurances from the Irish government that religious solemnisers will not be obliged to perform same-sex marriage are not worth very much.

I can't wait for that referendum.

Why would there need to be a referendum?

So that they can include man-sheep, woman-dog and straw-man marriages.

Eh?

Sidney

Quote from: deiseach on May 19, 2015, 11:49:39 AM
I know it's a different jurisdiction, but the principle in this verdict is why I think that assurances from the Irish government that religious solemnisers will not be obliged to perform same-sex marriage are not worth very much.
Yeah, they'll be forced to marry gays just like they're forced to marry divorcees, or forced to let Protestant, Muslim or Jewish kids make their first communion.

They aren't a business offering a service.


muppet

Quote from: armaghniac on May 19, 2015, 12:06:49 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 19, 2015, 11:54:40 AM
Quote from: deiseach on May 19, 2015, 11:49:39 AM
I know it's a different jurisdiction, but the principle in this verdict is why I think that assurances from the Irish government that religious solemnisers will not be obliged to perform same-sex marriage are not worth very much.

I can't wait for that referendum.

It's on Friday, you won't have long to wait.

No it isn't.

The Irish Courts consistently allow clubs, societies and associations to be run according to their articles, rules etc. As long a they abide by their own rules they are entitled to decide how they conduct themselves and the courts will not interfere. See Portmarnock and females members for example. The GAA is another example.

Please stop the straw man nonsense.
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