Scottish independence referendum thread

[armaghniac]

They can sing all God Save the Queen including the neglected verse


    Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
    May by thy mighty aid,
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    and like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush,
    God save The Queen.

[Jeepers Creepers]

A lot of very depressed people in Scotland after the result.  However,  given we were up against the Westminster establishment,  the media (only 1 paper supported independence) and the financial world then 45% was a good achievement. I felt 2 weeks ago that we were going to do it but the yes majority poll scared Westminster and we had 10 days of blanket fear coverage with banks and major companies threatening to leave.  That swung people who were moving to yes back to no.

3/4 of over 65's voted no. Give it a few years and we'll be back.

Do you think there are many people in Scotland staring into their pint, wall, distance thinking 'what the f##k have I done!?

[bennydorano]

I don't get this thinking at all,Yes had a miniscule Poll lead in one Poll with a margin of error of 6/8% built in, the No camp were ahead everywhere bar this. The vote went as expected, there are more Union supporters than Independence supporters - end of. Nobody let anybody down/choked/chickened out - IMO.

[lawnseed]

the local orangies had a nice party night last night. lambegs, pipes, and flutes and bonnies and fireworks. heeeey hooo our kingdom has been saved as they danced into the night round their bonfire.. any excuse

[andoireabu]

There'll be some banter at the next Calcutta cup game.

O flower of Scotland
When will we see your like again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit hill and glen
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

The hills are bare now
And autumn leaves lie thick and still
O'er land that is lost now
Which those so dearly held
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

Those days are passed now
And in the past they must remain
But we can still rise now
And be the nation again
That stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

why wouldnt any scottish yes voter sing this song after losing? When will they see another leader like salmond who got his party to the top and then got a referendum to choose there future and nearly won it. 6% isnt much to lose by in something this big. I wish we had someone here who cared enough about the country to actually try for it rather than taking a dig at each other nd carrying on with the nonsense. And they have definitely sent lilys army home to think again because there is no way the no campaign could win like that again and they have to try and win people over.

So the hills are bare now and they will be for a while but the want won't go away and those who dearly held it will speak again. Ireland had four home rule bills so why would scotland stop at one referendum? Sort out the shortfalls and then bring the arguements back to the table. There were a lot of undecided voters until the end so there are a lot of people who could be swayed and change the majority.

This referendum is passed now and in the past it must remain but they know how to win the next time where as lilys army have to think again about how to beat an idea that wont go away.

Fair play to scotland for even getting a vote for freedom and since it wasnt chosen it should be respected. But if the want is there again they should get votes until the want is gone. I wish I had the same chance for this place.

[muppet]

A lot of very depressed people in Scotland after the result.  However,  given we were up against the Westminster establishment,  the media (only 1 paper supported independence) and the financial world then 45% was a good achievement. I felt 2 weeks ago that we were going to do it but the yes majority poll scared Westminster and we had 10 days of blanket fear coverage with banks and major companies threatening to leave.  That swung people who were moving to yes back to no.

3/4 of over 65's voted no. Give it a few years and we'll be back.

The 'No' campaign made it clear that an independent Scotland would start life with 1 uncooperative neighbour to the south. The debate never moved to the question of what friends such an entity might have. Given that US investors will rush into places like Iraq, China, Georgia & Russia at the first hint of stability, an independent Scotland had little to worry about. Add to the obvious connections with Ireland and all of the EU and probably Canada and finance would not have been an issue. It was a complete red herring of an issue, even allowing for the national debt problem.

You don't need to tell me that but the fact was that there was blanket media coverage of banks and major companies saying they would pull out of Scotland.  Orchestrated by Westminster,  just like the warnings from foreign leaders and the likes of Barroso.  The yes campaign did their best to forward the alternative but in the face of a hostile media they struggled.  Social media was huge for them and it's no coincidence that the group they got trounced in were the over 65's who are most unlikely to be across social media, and most likely to believe what the establishment tells them.

As for bennydorano, if it was never on the cards why did Cameron,  Miliband and Clegg rush north 2 weeks ago? Why did Brown take over?  They were shitting themselves.  That intervention and the full on project fear that followed swung it in their favour.  Until then all the momentum was with yes.

They were absolutely shitting themselves that they would be the leaders which lost the Union. Especially Cameron.

[Myles Na G.]

There'll be some banter at the next Calcutta cup game.

O flower of Scotland
When will we see your like again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit hill and glen
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

The hills are bare now
And autumn leaves lie thick and still
O'er land that is lost now
Which those so dearly held
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

Those days are passed now
And in the past they must remain
But we can still rise now
And be the nation again
That stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

why wouldnt any scottish yes voter sing this song after losing? When will they see another leader like salmond who got his party to the top and then got a referendum to choose there future and nearly won it. 6% isnt much to lose by in something this big. I wish we had someone here who cared enough about the country to actually try for it rather than taking a dig at each other nd carrying on with the nonsense. And they have definitely sent lilys army home to think again because there is no way the no campaign could win like that again and they have to try and win people over.

So the hills are bare now and they will be for a while but the want won't go away and those who dearly held it will speak again. Ireland had four home rule bills so why would scotland stop at one referendum? Sort out the shortfalls and then bring the arguements back to the table. There were a lot of undecided voters until the end so there are a lot of people who could be swayed and change the majority.

This referendum is passed now and in the past it must remain but they know how to win the next time where as lilys army have to think again about how to beat an idea that wont go away.

Fair play to scotland for even getting a vote for freedom and since it wasnt chosen it should be respected. But if the want is there again they should get votes until the want is gone. I wish I had the same chance for this place.

Yep, at least the Scots got the opportunity to cast a vote and have their democratic wishes respected. Ireland will never have that same chance, as the wishes of 20% of the population living in a handful of northern counties are given priority over the wishes of everyone else on the island. If Scotland had voted yes, but a majority in the Highlands and islands had voted to stay in the union, would they have been allowed to separate from the rest of Scotland? Not a chance. They'd have been told to respect the democratic decision and the integrity of the country as a unit would have been upheld. Only in Ireland are we expected to live with the injustice of a partitioned country and the perpetuation of a failed northern state founded and sustained against the will of a majority of people on the island.

[muppet]

There'll be some banter at the next Calcutta cup game.

O flower of Scotland
When will we see your like again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit hill and glen
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

The hills are bare now
And autumn leaves lie thick and still
O'er land that is lost now
Which those so dearly held
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

Those days are passed now
And in the past they must remain
But we can still rise now
And be the nation again
That stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

why wouldnt any scottish yes voter sing this song after losing? When will they see another leader like salmond who got his party to the top and then got a referendum to choose there future and nearly won it. 6% isnt much to lose by in something this big. I wish we had someone here who cared enough about the country to actually try for it rather than taking a dig at each other nd carrying on with the nonsense. And they have definitely sent lilys army home to think again because there is no way the no campaign could win like that again and they have to try and win people over.

So the hills are bare now and they will be for a while but the want won't go away and those who dearly held it will speak again. Ireland had four home rule bills so why would scotland stop at one referendum? Sort out the shortfalls and then bring the arguements back to the table. There were a lot of undecided voters until the end so there are a lot of people who could be swayed and change the majority.

This referendum is passed now and in the past it must remain but they know how to win the next time where as lilys army have to think again about how to beat an idea that wont go away.

Fair play to scotland for even getting a vote for freedom and since it wasnt chosen it should be respected. But if the want is there again they should get votes until the want is gone. I wish I had the same chance for this place.

Yep, at least the Scots got the opportunity to cast a vote and have their democratic wishes respected. Ireland will never have that same chance, as the wishes of 20% of the population living in a handful of northern counties are given priority over the wishes of everyone else on the island. If Scotland had voted yes, but a majority in the Highlands and islands had voted to stay in the union, would they have been allowed to separate from the rest of Scotland? Not a chance. They'd have been told to respect the democratic decision and the integrity of the country as a unit would have been upheld. Only in Ireland are we expected to live with the injustice of a partitioned country and the perpetuation of a failed northern state founded and sustained against the will of a majority of people on the island.

Fair play Myles. Good post.

[Sidney]

In a parallel world:

Former Prime Minister Lord Bruton of Boyneside and Sir Bob Geldof have made impassioned pleas for Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom ahead of Friday's referendum on whether Ireland should secede.

"We've fought two World Wars together, and we've been part of the greatest and most successful political union the world has ever seen. It would be tragic to throw away almost 850 years of shared history", said Lord Bruton, who served as Prime Minister from 1990 to 1997 and Chancellor of the Exchequer from 1982 to 1990, and is best remembered for his imposition of the infamous "poll tax" on Ireland, even after it had been dropped in the rest of the Union.

"Ireland is a feeling", said Geldof, in a speech at a rally at the John Redmond Cenotaph in Dublin's Sackville Street, which was also attended by Irish First Minister Enda Kenny and Prime Minister David Cameron.

Geldof has been joined by other famous names from the entertainment world, such as U2's Bono, BBC Ireland's Gay Byrne and Terry Wogan, and ITV Ireland's Ryan Tubridy in calling for a No vote.

Sporting stars such as England and Kilkenny county cricket legend Henry Shefflington, golfer Rory McIlroy, Ireland football star Roy Queen and rugby player Brian O'Driscoll have also been lining up to play their part in the "Better Together" campaign.

Meanwhile former US Open golf champion Graeme McDowell, Ireland cricket captain John Mooney and British Loins rugby captain Sean Cavanagh have been on the receiving end of a tirade of foul-mouthed abuse on Twitter after revealing that they favour independence.

Polls currently show the outcome to be too close to call, but it's thought that a strong Yes vote in areas such as Limerick, Wexford and West Dublin may be cancelled out by similarly strong No votes in Unionist strongholds such as Cork, Kilkenny and Fingal.

The referendum has been played out against a backdrop of controversial issues, such as the location of the UK's Trident Nuclear submarines off the west coast, and the No campaign arguing that revenues from the export of potatoes would be insufficient to run an independent economy. All major national newspapers have called for a No vote, however controversy flared at the weekend after Yes campaign leader Martin McGuinness was compared to Hitler by the Sunday Independent. Irish Times editor Eoghan Harris has said that "separating ourselves from the mainland would be a total disaster".

It's been some campaign and we should know the result some time this afternoon. Think the Nos will have it, myself.



As the polls opened within the last few hours, controversy abounds today over comments by BBC Ireland's Sir Gay Byrne on last night's final "Ireland Decides" debate on Channel 4. Byrne angrily said that "revenues from the export of potatoes are no basis on which to run an economy".

The Irish Dependent leads today with a large colour splash of what the national flag might look like without the cross of St. Patrick and the centre spread features a collage of photographs of memorable sporting successes that Irish athletes have been involved in as part of Team GB, such as Dame Katie Taylor's gold medal at London 2012.

The Independent's editorial says that "an independent Ireland is a pipe dream rooted in fantasy rather than reality. We must vote with our heads."

"You don't simply walk out on a marriage when you have an argument", writes Sir Anthony O'Reilly in the same paper. "This is without doubt a marriage that has stood the test of time and is worth saving."

---------------

McGuinness calls for commemoration of Irish terrorist leaders

Sunday Dependent
September 21st, 2014

Yes campaign leader Martin McGuinness has called for more recognition of historical Irish nationalist leaders. Under McGuinness's proposal, a statue of Charles Stewart Parnell would be erected at the junction of Sackville Street and John Redmond Square. "This is our forgotten war", said McGuinness. "The sacrifice of the rebels of 1798, and men like Wolfe Tone and Robert Emmett also needs to be recognised."

First Minister Enda Kenny and Prime Minister David Cameron have poured cold water on the suggestion, however. "I think it's highly inappropriate to bring something like this up at such a delicate stage in the campaign", said Kenny. Former Prime Minister Lord Boyneside has dismissed McGuinness as "a crank who ended up on the wrong side of history".

-----------

Sport

It's a big night in the Vauxhall Irish Premiership, and all roads lead to Dalymount Park for the Old Firm derby meeting of Bohemians and Shamrock Rovers. There will be a heavy police presence to separate supporters, especially given the tensions over today's referendum. Bohemians supporters have been vocal in their support for a No vote, while Shamrock Rovers supporters, led by the Thomas Davis Ultras (named in honour of the 19th century Irish nationalist agitator) have campaigned strongly for a Yes. "We're bracing ourselves for trouble", said an RIC spokesman.

A win will take Rovers back to the top of the league table, at least temporarily, as leaders Lnfield don't play until tomorrow afternoon, when they travel to bottom of the table Maryborough Town. BBC2 Ireland have live coverage of tonight's match, starting at 7:55pm, with commentary from Jackie Fullerton and Damien Richardson.

------------

Press release from Trans World Sport:

This week Trans World Sport focusses on the annual celebration of Ireland's native sporting pursuits, the Irish Country Games. Held annually over one weekend in Lowry's Field, Thurles, Co. Tipperary, since 1916, local teams compete in the traditional Irish games of cad and hurley.

While the sports have been largely dormant for most of the last century, they have enjoyed something of a revival in recent times. Last year 20 teams entered the cad competition, while 8 teams battled it out in the hurley festival.

Other traditional Irish rural activities such as dancing and music are also celebrated, and to add a touch of glamour, a beauty pageant entitled "The Queen of the Camán" (pronounced "Cayman") is contested by young women from the region. The winner gets to sit on a throne with the best player in the cad competition - The "King of Cad", at the closing ceremony.

The Games have been praised in Lonely Planet's Ireland guidebook as "a unique event - it's difficult for an outsider to tell what's going on most of the time, but the sense of fun surrounding the event is palpable."

The games open with a traditional banshee's cry, and close with a ceremonial burning of a huge paper mache model of the infamous Lough Derg Monster, lit by the man voted the best player in the hurley competition.

Nobody knows whether "Dergie", as he's more popularly known to tourists, really exists, but his annual burning is believed by locals to banish unwanted spirits - but the Irish being the Irish, the copious amounts of whiskey consumed all weekend are certainly not included in that category!

[Rossfan]

A lot of very depressed people in Scotland after the result.  However,  given we were up against the Westminster establishment,  the media (only 1 paper supported independence) and the financial world then 45% was a good achievement. I felt 2 weeks ago that we were going to do it but the yes majority poll scared Westminster and we had 10 days of blanket fear coverage with banks and major companies threatening to leave.  That swung people who were moving to yes back to no.

3/4 of over 65's voted no. Give it a few years and we'll be back.

45% was a massive achievement considering all the handicaps of biased media, EU and others ganging up and the rabbit from the hat of greater powers.
The one certainty is that the 45% were committed to the cause while the 555 is split between committed pro Unionists and fearful or dont knows who were swayed by the rabbit from the hat.
I suspect that whole rabbit will unravel as English MPs of all Parties kick up a fuss and hopefully  the new SNP leader plaus all the Yes folks who became politicised will come to the fore and keep up the pressure so that when the next Refernedum is held you will be the 55%.

[LondonCamanachd]

There'll be some banter at the next Calcutta cup game.

I very much doubt it.

There's

a) no banter at a Scottish Rugby ever - it's like being in a library
b) Scottish Rugby fans are drawn from Private School Edinburgh and Borders Farmtouns.  The two sections of the populace that were overwhelmingly pro-Union.


Now, the Scotland-England football match in celtic Park in November might be a little emotionally charged.

[LondonCamanachd]

A lot of very depressed people in Scotland after the result.  However,  given we were up against the Westminster establishment,  the media (only 1 paper supported independence) and the financial world then 45% was a good achievement. I felt 2 weeks ago that we were going to do it but the yes majority poll scared Westminster and we had 10 days of blanket fear coverage with banks and major companies threatening to leave.  That swung people who were moving to yes back to no.

3/4 of over 65's voted no. Give it a few years and we'll be back.

45% was a massive achievement considering all the handicaps of biased media, EU and others ganging up and the rabbit from the hat of greater powers.
The one certainty is that the 45% were committed to the cause while the 555 is split between committed pro Unionists and fearful or dont knows who were swayed by the rabbit from the hat.
I suspect that whole rabbit will unravel as English MPs of all Parties kick up a fuss and hopefully  the new SNP leader plaus all the Yes folks who became politicised will come to the fore and keep up the pressure so that when the next Refernedum is held you will be the 55%.

Here's hoping.

Over 9,000 people have joined the SNP since the referendum, and the membership of the Scottish Greens has doubled. 

The 55% were persuaded by the mainstream media, the 'normal' portion of society.  The 45% aren't going to go away, they were persuaded by social media, work on the street, town hall meetings etc, they're motivated, and they're now a lot better at organising a campaign from the bottom up.

Expect things to get interesting if Westminster don't deliver a new constitutional settlement soon, as the right wing media down here are pushing for a louder English voice to be heard too.

Cameron's 'vow' hasn't saved the Union, it's merely saved his job, and delayed the break-up into someone else's Premiership.

[Eamonnca1]

Cameron's 'vow' hasn't saved the Union, it's merely saved his job, and delayed the break-up into someone else's Premiership.

I think I agree with that. It'll be interesting to see if the Scots can build on this momentum and get another referendum within the next 15 or 20 years. If the SNP take the Scottish Parliament in a landslide then you could see support for secession growing. I'm surprised only one newspaper supported the nationalists though. If more media outlets swing behind secession then that'll change things, but in the age of media consolidation it's getting harder for that to happen.

I'd hate to see the nationalist movement fizzling out like it seems to have done in Quebec. The Parti Quebecois seems to have a hard time connecting with younger voters and is facing dwindling support, something that cannot be said of the SNP.

[LondonCamanachd]

I'd hate to see the nationalist movement fizzling out like it seems to have done in Quebec. The Parti Quebecois seems to have a hard time connecting with younger voters and is facing dwindling support, something that cannot be said of the SNP.

The Yes Scotland movement was broader brush than just the SNP.  There's also the Greens, Radical Independence, SSP, Solidarity, National Collective, Independence for Women, Shinty for Yes, etc.

Even if the SNP fail to appeal to the youth voter, the more grass roots, informal, livelier elements won't.  e.g. National Collective are a non-party-political collection of pro-Indy artists.

The movement's lost a figurehead in Salmond, but in the face of the media disdain, Yes Scotland was always a street and social media based movement anyway - which is where the young voters are.

[AZOffaly]

Shinty for yes? Brilliant.