The ulster rugby trial

[Asal Mor]

Was the girl questioned on how her top came to be off? It seems inconsistent with  "everything about me was saying no physically". Would her top not have to have been ripped off in that case?

She's said that she took it off herself

I hadn't heard that. Well, taking your top off is certainly  inconsistent with  "everything about me was saying no physically". Call me crazy but i would regard a girl taking her top off as an indication of consent.

Has she specified anything that she did to indicate she wasn't consenting?

[Syferus]

Was the girl questioned on how her top came to be off? It seems inconsistent with  "everything about me was saying no physically". Would her top not have to have been ripped off in that case?

She's said that she took it off herself

I hadn't heard that. Well, taking your top off is certainly  inconsistent with  "everything about me was saying no physically". Call me crazy but i would regard a girl taking her top off as an indication of consent.

Has she specified anything that she did to indicate she wasn't consenting?

I think it's pretty clear your understanding of consent is shoddy, and that's putting it generously. Consent can be withdrawn at any point. You can't half rape someone, it's a red line.

[Milltown Row2]

Was the girl questioned on how her top came to be off? It seems inconsistent with  "everything about me was saying no physically". Would her top not have to have been ripped off in that case?

She's said that she took it off herself

That was nice of her

[sid waddell]

Was the girl questioned on how her top came to be off? It seems inconsistent with  "everything about me was saying no physically". Would her top not have to have been ripped off in that case?

She's said that she took it off herself

She said she was ordered to take it off.

[Syferus]

Was the girl questioned on how her top came to be off? It seems inconsistent with  "everything about me was saying no physically". Would her top not have to have been ripped off in that case?

She's said that she took it off herself

She said she was ordered to take it off.

MR2 and GetOverTheBar not doing themselves any favours I see.

[Taylor]

Some people think the boys are innocent, some think they are guilty. It's a discussion board for f**k sake.

Why do some posters feel the need to berate and act like condasending picks if people don't agree with their opinion.

Now where is that ducking ignore function

[CiKe]

The other thought nagging at me is what possible motive would the girl have for going this far if she didn't genuinely believe she was raped. It's a very courageous thing to do.

Bar the perhaps obvious and perhaps excusable mis-statements, they could all be telling the truth, or their own biased version of it.

This is all pure speculation as to a potential version of events that could have happened where they would all be telling the "truth":

She got herself into a uncomfortable situation, didnt want to it go nearly as far as it went, but didnt know how to get out of it, so felt like she had no choice but to give in and go along with it. Then when no3 guy comes in, she gets her mojo back and decides enough's enough and leaves - perhaps when she realised someone else had seen her it helped straighten her thoughts.

Then almost immediately she gets really angry with the lads, her honest belief is it wasn't consensual, I didnt really want to take part in a 3some, she feels used, feels taken advantage of, feels raped. She tells her mates, and they suggest she has to go to the police.

But from Jackson's point of view, perhaps he thought here's girl a who fancies me.  She came to his house, she's not drinking, she's not with the 3 other girls, she's goes to his room and they start kissing. Hands start to wander, and she says Enough. She walks out. Paddy thinks, Dammit, I thought I was in. Girl comes back, Paddy thinks this is good. He starts again, thinking all he has to do is push the right button and she'll change her mind. He gets her into a compromising situation, she's not resisting. He's not holding her down, he's not preventing her from moving. She's not shouting Stop. He asks her to take off her top, she complies. So from his point of view, he doesn't think he's done a thing wrong.   

Olding comes in. Sees whats going on and decides to chance he arm. He lays down beside her, gets a blowie and thinks this is a great way to end a night. And then he's utterly astonished when police come knocking.

This is what I have thought is a very plausible  situation  for a while. 3rd guy is the tipping point at which she thinks has been used and then thinks has been raped

[seafoid]

http://www.rcni.ie/facts.aspx

I have just been raped. What should I Do?

Are you safe now? If not, you may need to ask for help.
You do not need to make any decisions now about reporting the assault to the Gardaí or PSNI but it is a good idea to leave your options open. Here are some points to remember:
•   Contact your local Rape Crisis Centre as soon as possible. A staff member will give you the information you need to help you make your decisions about what happens next and to support you in whatever you decide to do. This will include information about your nearest specialist Sexual Assault Treatment Unit (SATU) or PSNI Rape Suite.
•   You can ask a friend to contact the Rape Crisis Centre for you or ask a friend to come with you.
•   If you decide you might want to report the rape or sexual assault to the police, do not wash until after you have had a medical and forensic examination because important forensic evidence might be washed away.
•   If you were attacked in your mouth and you want to report it, don't eat, drink, smoke or use toothpaste or mouthwash until samples have been taken from your mouth area.             
•   Do not throw out or wash underwear or clothes that you were wearing at the time of the assault as these will be needed for forensic examination.

People react in different ways to being raped or sexually abused. There is no such thing as a 'typical reaction'.

Your reactions may include the following:

Immediate effects
Shock and withdrawal, panic and confusion, terror, disbelief and denial, feeling dirty, distressed, crying and shaking, calm and detached.

Short-term effects
Thinking constantly about the details of the rape, getting flashbacks, finding it hard to sleep and having nightmares, being jumpy, obsessive washing, physical trauma.

Long-term effects
Dramatic mood-swings, repeated flashbacks about the assault, blaming yourself,  guilt, fear, deep emotional pain, difficulty in trusting, difficulty in building new relationships, sexual difficulties, poor concentration and memory, difficulty coping with normal routines.

More about Trauma

What is trauma?
In dangerous situations, our defence system produces an adrenalin rush which helps us to be alert and to either fight or run. Traumatic reactions happen when we are overwhelmed and cannot fight or run. This can produce traumatic changes in the body and mind.

Disassociating
Many people experience a change in consciousness during trauma – if you cannot escape by getting away, you try to escape in your head. You may not feel any emotion or you may deny that anything happened to you at all. You may have experienced the trauma as if it was happening to someone else. You may not be able to remember parts of the traumatic event or your memory of it may feel completely unreal.

You may try to block out the memory by taking drugs or by drinking too much. For many, this is a normal reaction to a traumatic situation that helps you to survive in the short term. But it is important to realise that this short-term solution can become unhelpful and harmful in the longer term. If you can't stop, there is support out there to help you.

REMEMBER IT IS POSSIBLE TO HEAL FROM THE EFFECTS OF TRAUMA

Short-term effects
Being on permanent alert. You expect danger at any moment. This may result in being easily startled, reacting irritably to small things, not being able to sleep and eat as normal, or feeling intense fear and anxiety.
Flashbacks and nightmares. It may be impossible to forget the traumatic event, especially in the short term. Years later, the event can pop back into your memory. Flashbacks can be very vivid and detailed, yet it might be difficult to express in words what is happening in them.
Re-enacting dangerous situations. You may seek out dangerous situations to prove to yourself, for example, that the rape has not affected you.

Long term effects
Your self-esteem and personal power can be affected. The experience of sexual violence violates your boundaries and your sense of control in the world. Sexual violence can make you feel that your feelings or decisions are of little value.
You may carry guilt and shame, feel self-destructive or suicidal, or be addicted to alcohol or other drugs. The trauma may lead to mental illness. This can affect your expectations of how you should be treated and how you relate to others. Talking about your story and being believed can be a big step in regaining power and control in your life and in building up your sense of self-worth.

Your body
You may have developed an eating disorder, an addiction or another physical illness connected to your experience. If you find it hard to look at your body and listen to the messages it gives you, support and counselling can be a great help in learning to deal with this.

Your feelings
You may have survived the experience of sexual violence by going emotionally numb or by blocking out physical pain. Being numb worked for you – it got you through the trauma. You may have used it to survive ever since. Feeling the anger, fear, grief and sadness that you could not feel back then may be too scary. This may mean you can't feel the good emotions either or that you can't tell the difference between them. It is possible to recover and to feel a full range of feelings.

Intimacy
If you had a trusting relationship with your abuser, either from chatting to him or her for a short while or because he or she was a relative, you may now find it hard to trust anyone, to have close friends or to have a healthy and non-abusive relationship. You can change these feelings over time as you regain control over your life. Support from a friend or a counsellor can be a great help.

Sexuality
When there has been abuse, you may find you link sex with bad things. You may have disconnected from sexual feelings during the trauma. You might have been told that you didn't matter and that all you are good for is sex. Today, you may have difficulties in sexual relationships. Having sexual feelings may make you feel shame, disgust, pain or humiliation. You may find it impossible to have any sexual contact. You might find yourself looking for sex you really do not want or you might find it hard to say no. You may have had partners who have sexually abused you.
Over time, you can learn to identify your needs and to look after yourself. You can learn to build a safe and enjoyable sexual relationship and to work through the feelings of shame that might have been with you for a long time.

[Asal Mor]

I was veering towards believing the girl until I learned that she'd taken her own top off. Okay she says she was ordered to do it(would a man usually ask a girl politely to take her top off during consensual sex?) but she can't remember who ordered her to do it(imo if she'd been told to do it in a threatening way she'd remember). She also claimed that she "froze" when asked why she didn't cry out for help, but when asked/told to take her top off she did. That doesn't add up to me. Imo it looks like regret, not rape,  at this stage. The police interviews should be revealing though.

[Syferus]

I was veering towards believing the girl until I learned that she'd taken her own top off. Okay she says she was ordered to do it(would a man usually ask a girl politely to take her top off during consensual sex?) but she can't remember who ordered her to do it(imo if she'd been told to do it in a threatening way she'd remember). She also claimed that she "froze" when asked why she didn't cry out for help, but when asked/told to take her top off she did. That doesn't add up to me. Imo it looks like regret, not rape,  at this stage. The police interviews should be revealing though.

Don't lie Asal, you were never veering towards believing the victim in a rape case.

Some people here seem to think they can get away with hiding their predjuices behind the most perfunctory public attempts to pretend they gave the victim a chance. We're not falling for it.

[HiMucker]

I was veering towards believing the girl until I learned that she'd taken her own top off. Okay she says she was ordered to do it(would a man usually ask a girl politely to take her top off during consensual sex?) but she can't remember who ordered her to do it(imo if she'd been told to do it in a threatening way she'd remember). She also claimed that she "froze" when asked why she didn't cry out for help, but when asked/told to take her top off she did. That doesn't add up to me. Imo it looks like regret, not rape,  at this stage. The police interviews should be revealing though.

Would you not agree its possible your veering that way because you have a predetermined view of what rape is and what it looks like?  The vast majority of rapes are completely different from what we would see in a film.

[Milltown Row2]

I was veering towards believing the girl until I learned that she'd taken her own top off. Okay she says she was ordered to do it(would a man usually ask a girl politely to take her top off during consensual sex?) but she can't remember who ordered her to do it(imo if she'd been told to do it in a threatening way she'd remember). She also claimed that she "froze" when asked why she didn't cry out for help, but when asked/told to take her top off she did. That doesn't add up to me. Imo it looks like regret, not rape,  at this stage. The police interviews should be revealing though.

Don't lie Asal, you were never veering towards believing the victim in a rape case.

Some people here seem to think they can get away with hiding their predjuices behind the most perfunctory public attempts to pretend they gave the victim a chance. We're not falling for it.

We're not falling for it? Have you already judged it and giving off about other people judging it? Weirdo

[screenexile]

I was veering towards believing the girl until I learned that she'd taken her own top off. Okay she says she was ordered to do it(would a man usually ask a girl politely to take her top off during consensual sex?) but she can't remember who ordered her to do it(imo if she'd been told to do it in a threatening way she'd remember). She also claimed that she "froze" when asked why she didn't cry out for help, but when asked/told to take her top off she did. That doesn't add up to me. Imo it looks like regret, not rape,  at this stage. The police interviews should be revealing though.

Don't lie Asal, you were never veering towards believing the victim in a rape case.

Some people here seem to think they can get away with hiding their predjuices behind the most perfunctory public attempts to pretend they gave the victim a chance. We're not falling for it.

We??

Who is this 'we' you speak of??!!

[Syferus]

I was veering towards believing the girl until I learned that she'd taken her own top off. Okay she says she was ordered to do it(would a man usually ask a girl politely to take her top off during consensual sex?) but she can't remember who ordered her to do it(imo if she'd been told to do it in a threatening way she'd remember). She also claimed that she "froze" when asked why she didn't cry out for help, but when asked/told to take her top off she did. That doesn't add up to me. Imo it looks like regret, not rape,  at this stage. The police interviews should be revealing though.

Would you not agree its possible your veering that way because you have a predetermined view of what rape is and what it looks like?  The vast majority of rapes are completely different from what we would see in a film.

+1

[Asal Mor]

I was veering towards believing the girl until I learned that she'd taken her own top off. Okay she says she was ordered to do it(would a man usually ask a girl politely to take her top off during consensual sex?) but she can't remember who ordered her to do it(imo if she'd been told to do it in a threatening way she'd remember). She also claimed that she "froze" when asked why she didn't cry out for help, but when asked/told to take her top off she did. That doesn't add up to me. Imo it looks like regret, not rape,  at this stage. The police interviews should be revealing though.

Would you not agree its possible your veering that way because you have a predetermined view of what rape is and what it looks like?  The vast majority of rapes are completely different from what we would see in a film.

Don't think so Mucker. I can accept that a girl could freeze and not struggle and my earlier posts on the thread would show I was inclined to believe her, but taking off her own top  because she was "ordered to" and yet being unable to recall which man ordered her to do so is something that doesn't add up to me at all.