Westminster Election 12th December 2019

Started by Ambrose, October 29, 2019, 02:24:04 PM

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marty34

Quote from: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.

True - go to school and then back to their own 'areas'.  It's fantasy schooling.  Not the demand for it.

trailer

f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.

Walter Cronc

Another point, since the results we have clowns in SF some how attacking both Alliance and SDLP. Just accept you got your arses handed to you in Foyle and quit the slabbering on social media.

There's a reason SF vote was down in most constituencies, they take us for granted and have done sweet FA in working class areas.

Snapchap

Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:05:41 PM
f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.

In other words, lets ram it down people's throat by sticking to the very guidelines set out in the GFA that those same people voted overwhelmingly in favour of?

So what % do you suggest it should be for a vote in favour of reunification to be valid? Or to put that another way, exactly how much more valuable is a unionist's vote be over a nationalist's vote, in your eyes?

Eamonnca1

#1729
Only in NI do people think it's physically impossible for catholics and protestants to be given a decent quality education in the same school. This is the kind of thing I have a hard time explaining to my wife. Being American, she sees everyone in NI as white and doesn't know what the difference is between a catholic and a protestant. When she went to school religion didn't get a look in. Schools in California are civic institutions that reflect the diversity of society, and religion is something you do on your own time. What a concept.

Eamonnca1

Quote from: Snapchap on December 16, 2019, 11:01:57 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:05:41 PM
f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.

In other words, lets ram it down people's throat by sticking to the very guidelines set out in the GFA that those same people voted overwhelmingly in favour of?

So what % do you suggest it should be for a vote in favour of reunification to be valid? Or to put that another way, exactly how much more valuable is a unionist's vote be over a nationalist's vote, in your eyes?

It's not a question of being "valid." It's a question of achieving unity when there's a good consensus for it and when it's not such a bitterly divisive issue. It's about reunification happening peacefully and with less likelihood of a violent loyalist backlash or even civil war. But you try explaining that to the "integrated education will never happen so we should just keep them separate" crowd.

Eamonnca1

Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 09:44:30 PM
St Mary's has a lot to answer for regarding the teachers in the current education system. They are unwilling to share or integrate at all. It's has a very conservative Irish ethos.
Integrated Education is a brilliant idea. Unfortunately it's being implemented by people used to segregation and getting their own way, who then see everything as a concession.

If I had my way the state sector would be the integrated sector. Anybody wanting to run catholic schools should fund it out of the church coffers, not exchequer funds. People shouldn't be paying tithes in this day and age.

thebuzz

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 11:10:12 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on December 16, 2019, 11:01:57 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:05:41 PM
f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.

In other words, lets ram it down people's throat by sticking to the very guidelines set out in the GFA that those same people voted overwhelmingly in favour of?

So what % do you suggest it should be for a vote in favour of reunification to be valid? Or to put that another way, exactly how much more valuable is a unionist's vote be over a nationalist's vote, in your eyes?

It's not a question of being "valid." It's a question of achieving unity when there's a good consensus for it and when it's not such a bitterly divisive issue. It's about reunification happening peacefully and with less likelihood of a violent loyalist backlash or even civil war. But you try explaining that to the "integrated education will never happen so we should just keep them separate" crowd.

Everyone has been talking about economics being the main issue. All I can see is a bunch of loyalist nutters who would never accept it even if it was 70 - 30 in favour of a UI. Moderate loyalists will never be the problem.

BennyCake

Quote from: Walter Cronc on December 16, 2019, 10:57:02 PM
Another point, since the results we have clowns in SF some how attacking both Alliance and SDLP. Just accept you got your arses handed to you in Foyle and quit the slabbering on social media.

There's a reason SF vote was down in most constituencies, they take us for granted and have done sweet FA in working class areas.

I think one of the key differences this time, was that people have finally woken up to them. Health, jobs, education, economy in the gutter and all they're doing is ranting about a border poll. Useless shower of bastards.

dec

Quote from: thebuzz on December 16, 2019, 11:47:56 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 11:10:12 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on December 16, 2019, 11:01:57 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:05:41 PM
f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.

In other words, lets ram it down people's throat by sticking to the very guidelines set out in the GFA that those same people voted overwhelmingly in favour of?

So what % do you suggest it should be for a vote in favour of reunification to be valid? Or to put that another way, exactly how much more valuable is a unionist's vote be over a nationalist's vote, in your eyes?

It's not a question of being "valid." It's a question of achieving unity when there's a good consensus for it and when it's not such a bitterly divisive issue. It's about reunification happening peacefully and with less likelihood of a violent loyalist backlash or even civil war. But you try explaining that to the "integrated education will never happen so we should just keep them separate" crowd.

Everyone has been talking about economics being the main issue. All I can see is a bunch of loyalist nutters who would never accept it even if it was 70 - 30 in favour of a UI. Moderate loyalists will never be the problem.

The Irish Free State/Republic of Ireland was an economic basket-case for a good chunk of it's history. So much so that there was huge emigration and the population didn't recover to it's 1922 level until the 70s. Yet in all that time there was never any push to rejoin the UK. Economics won't override identity/nationality etc.

Fear Bun Na Sceilpe

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 11:07:37 PM
Only in NI do people think it's physically impossible for catholics and protestants to be given a decent quality education in the same school. This is the kind of thing I have a hard time explaining to my wife. Being American, she sees everyone in NI as white and doesn't know what the difference is between a catholic and a protestant. When she went to school religion didn't get a look in. Schools in California are civic institutions that reflect the diversity of society, and religion is something you do on your own time. What a concept.

Religious affiliation has never been linked to oppression and war and hunger in USA. How would she understand with the greatest respect without a good knowledge of our history, but I can see how it must look mad for people from outside this island

trueblue1234

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 11:10:12 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on December 16, 2019, 11:01:57 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:05:41 PM
f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.

In other words, lets ram it down people's throat by sticking to the very guidelines set out in the GFA that those same people voted overwhelmingly in favour of?

So what % do you suggest it should be for a vote in favour of reunification to be valid? Or to put that another way, exactly how much more valuable is a unionist's vote be over a nationalist's vote, in your eyes?

It's not a question of being "valid." It's a question of achieving unity when there's a good consensus for it and when it's not such a bitterly divisive issue. It's about reunification happening peacefully and with less likelihood of a violent loyalist backlash or even civil war. But you try explaining that to the "integrated education will never happen so we should just keep them separate" crowd.

So if there was a 55-45 majority you think the status quo should be kept? Let's say it stays at that level for 20 years, do we continue to ignore the democratic change? As someone else alluded to earlier. It's a small % that will cause the backlash, and that will happen whether it's 80% 20%. It will never be accepted by them. I complete agree that we should work towards bringing as high a % as possible along with the process but I don't believe that democracy should be held back by a violent minority. 
Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit

Walter Cronc

Lads you are talking like some Monday we'll wake up to green post boxes. That won't happen. It'll be a phased transition which will start when we economically become one island in the next year or so. Surely then a phased federated all Ireland with two states is the sensible way to go to begin with. During this time our unionist neighbors will see the benefits.

seafoid

There are 2 main dynamics at play. Demographics are reducing the Unionist share of population. English nationalism is destroying Britishness
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

tbrick18

Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 09:16:17 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.

My experience would be the polar opposite.

What we need to do is remove segregated education and simply have education.

I wouldn't dispute that at all, as I know others who have had your experience.
I'm specifically talking about the primary sector here. To give some more background, my wife is on staff in this specific school, my kids attended the school (until we removed them, as did about 8 other families for similar reasons), and I was on the board of governors.
I've seen first hand what was going on and how non-integrated it actually was.
I appreciate this may be an isolated case, but I have had similar stories from others in different schools.

In an ideal world, yes it would just be education. Not Catholic, State, Integrated, Irish....just education. Kids don't need to be burdened with the prejudices of the past IMO. We completely bought into the Integrated Ethos, but were unfortunately feel completely duped by the experience we had.

The point I'm trying to make about Integrated education is that it's not the magic solution it's sometimes touted as. Mainly because the prejudices of staff and parents are coming with them into that integrated setting. In my opinion, there is a sizeable majority of people here not ready or willing to be "integrated", certainly in terms of education. Until that changes, everything is lip service.