All Ireland Football Final 2017 Mayo V Dublin

[Lar Naparka]

I despise this casual acceptance in some quarters that what Keegan did was acceptable in any context, as if no one has ever been better and cannot cast stones. To people like that - grow the fúck up. Keegan deserves to be raked over the coals for it, same as Tiernan McCann was for rolling around like a baby because someone touched his hair, or Philly McMahon for going so far over the line with his sledging.

We witnessed the best player in gaelic football make a fool of himself on the biggest stage of them all and people want to make excuses for him? Laughable. Keegan should have won the game within the rules if it "matters so much" to him.

On a side note - Tomas has been a seriously poor pundit, parroting the party line like all the others. Only Brolly and O'Rourke seem to be genuinely independent in their views on the TSG panel. I think it's fair to say most here don't pay much heed to his Kerrygold brand punditry anymore, Lar.

Bedad, syf, you're in horrid bad humour. 
I have a serious pain by now in that region where the back loses its polite name with all the tutting and moralising from those who haven't a bull's notion of what went on and goes on in this or any other game.
Irrational human nature (in everyone else of course!) has always fascinated me so I have a few questions for you, the ultimate example of same!
Just as one cannot half dig a hole or half kick someone up the arse, you either play by the Treoir Óifigiúil or not - no fudging the rules. So it logically follows that the the grade, location, teams involved don't come into the reckoning. So it's moral and ethical probity all the way, nothing you couldn't let your granny come to see.
One team is awarded a free and an opponent tries to distract the freetaker as he prepares to kick the ball. The method used to distract the kicker should be irrelevant.  But as this is going on, the freetakers team is preparing to deny possession to the defending side when the kick out is taken. This is not a spur of the moment action, it's been planned for such exigencies as a part of the normal routine. So one runs in to nab the goalie's tees to deny him a quick kickout and allow the attacking side get into position.
The kickout is taken anyway and each forward turns on his opposite number and pulls him to the ground  or drags his jersey or does whatever it takes to prevent the defender getting possession. This is pre-planned as the attacking side knows damn well that a black card at this stage of the game is is pointless. Run down the clock by fair means or fouls and frig the consequences.
I think any rational individual would agree that you and you fellow-travellers need a spell in the house for the bewildered.

and the reality is that Mayo, kerry , Tyrone or anyone else would do the exact same as Dublin did in similar circumstances. its not pretty or edifying but its reality

They would indeed. I've made the point repeatedly that I don't resent Dublin's success. Fair play to them as they are only doing what anyone else would do in similar circumstances. The pressures on players to win at all costs are mounting all the time and the time when teams set out to provide entertainment for the masses are long gone.
It's a sign that the inmates are truly in charge off the asylum when amateur players are equipped with gps equipment or the likes in an attempt to squeeze  one extra ounce of performance out of them and give them the tiniest advantage over the opposition.   

[Rossfan]

Unless we abolish competitive games we'll continue to squeeze  more things.....

[Rossfan]

Meanwhile Roscommonman Andy Moran commits to the Rhubarbs cause for 2018.

[maigheo]

Excellent interview with Andy talking to Joe Molloy.The relevant part of the interview for the Rossies is towards the end if any of ye are  interested  in the truth.

[Syferus]

Excellent interview with Andy talking to Joe Molloy.The relevant part of the interview for the Rossies is towards the end if any of ye are  interested  in the truth.

"Truth"..

[whitey]

Meanwhile Roscommonman Andy Moran commits to the Rhubarbs cause for 2018.

So if the area around Athlone got transferred to Westmeath would these guys suddenly become Westmeathmen

[dublin7]

I thought I was finished with the game and the result and the snapping and bitching that followed it but, after reading what both Tómás Ó Sé and Alan Brogan had to say on the result and especially on that Lee Keegan incident, I think it's worth repeating here.
I was very surprised at the amount of  sanctimonious horseshit that was spouted in the wake of Keegan's gamesmanship. I mean there wasn't a single player on the field who wouldn't resort to dubious tactics if he found himself in the same position as Keegan was when Rock prepared to take the free. T
Tómás had this to say:
"I see a big hullaballoo now over Lee Keegan throwing that GPS tracker unit at Rock as he lined up that last decisive free and, if I'm honest, it just makes me laugh.
People might regard that as bad sportsmanship, but those same people clearly don't understand what it's like out there in the bear-pit. Look, I accept that what he did wasn't right, but I've just no appetite for the piety flowing from some quarters now.
Put it this way, up to four Dublin forwards could have been black-carded for their behaviour while Clarke was trying to take that last kick-out. How do you ref that?
It was all desperately cynical but, while we might not like to admit it, I'd venture a suggestion that one of the reasons Sunday's game was so compelling was because of that very ruthlessness. The almost unscrupulous pursuit of victory.
I mean look at Rock after he lands that trojan score. His next act is to run and slam his opponent into the back. While he was doing that, team-mates began wrestling their direct opponents to the ground. You won't see a more cynical close to any game, anywhere, any time."

I see sweet damn all to disagree with in that.
Nobody went onto the field to provide entertainment for the masses. It's a great pity but that the inevitable consequence of the pressure for success players are put under by fans and media alike.

Alan didn't beat about the bush either.
The title of his article is:  "You do what you have to when the game is on the line."
One paragraph in particular stood out, for me at least.
" But gamesmanship, defined as the use of methods, especially in a sports contest, that are dubious or seemingly improper but not strictly illegal is common practice amongst the most successful Gaelic teams and it would be difficult to compete without understanding how to push the boundaries that a referee provides."
Personally, I don't like the amount of cynicism and gamesmanship that's to be found in the game today but there's no point in pretending otherwise. Players at this level don't set out to entertain and will go as far as the ref allows in pursuit of victory.

BTW, this is  also from Ó'Sé:
"And, by the way, the argument doing the rounds right now about Dublin GAA getting too much money, in my view, misses the point. What people should be focusing on is how they use that money so well.
Remember, Mayo probably have about a tenth of the Dubs' financial resources, yet only the tiniest of margins separate them on the field. If you ask me, it's high time other counties got their heads out of the sand and began focusing on self-help here."
I see nothing wrong with that either.

Excellent post Lar, thanks for sharing. My initial reaction to the GPS thing was probably a little ott - perhaps as it was something I'd never come across before (throwing something at a freetaker). Perhaps the case should be made for banning ALL GPS trackers!

O'Sé's last piece is absolutely correct. There always has and always will be inequality in the GAA. The beauty is that the "haves" don't always win because there are intangible things (that GPS trackers can't measure) that are often the difference.

I think this defence for Lee Keegan that anyone would do it is ridiculous. No one has done it before and I'd say no one has even thought about it. A huge to leap from pulling down players to throwing a GPS at someone.  I remember Canavan pulling down Colm Cooper in the last minute of an All Ireland final to stop him from getting forward for the goal Kerry needed.

I also don't remember anyone throwing anything at Cillian O'Connor this year or last year when he was taking a free deep into injury time.  It's seems because Dean Rock scored the free the GAA can pretend it didn't happen. What's to stop players throwing water bottles at free takers from now on. By not penalising Lee Keegan how can the GAA punish somebody else who trys the same thing?

[Rossfan]

Meanwhile Roscommonman Andy Moran commits to the Rhubarbs cause for 2018.

So if the area around Athlone got transferred to Westmeath would these guys suddenly become Westmeathmen

If there are any Ballagh people still around who were born before 1898........

[magpie seanie]

I thought I was finished with the game and the result and the snapping and bitching that followed it but, after reading what both Tómás Ó Sé and Alan Brogan had to say on the result and especially on that Lee Keegan incident, I think it's worth repeating here.
I was very surprised at the amount of  sanctimonious horseshit that was spouted in the wake of Keegan's gamesmanship. I mean there wasn't a single player on the field who wouldn't resort to dubious tactics if he found himself in the same position as Keegan was when Rock prepared to take the free. T
Tómás had this to say:
"I see a big hullaballoo now over Lee Keegan throwing that GPS tracker unit at Rock as he lined up that last decisive free and, if I'm honest, it just makes me laugh.
People might regard that as bad sportsmanship, but those same people clearly don't understand what it's like out there in the bear-pit. Look, I accept that what he did wasn't right, but I've just no appetite for the piety flowing from some quarters now.
Put it this way, up to four Dublin forwards could have been black-carded for their behaviour while Clarke was trying to take that last kick-out. How do you ref that?
It was all desperately cynical but, while we might not like to admit it, I'd venture a suggestion that one of the reasons Sunday's game was so compelling was because of that very ruthlessness. The almost unscrupulous pursuit of victory.
I mean look at Rock after he lands that trojan score. His next act is to run and slam his opponent into the back. While he was doing that, team-mates began wrestling their direct opponents to the ground. You won't see a more cynical close to any game, anywhere, any time."

I see sweet damn all to disagree with in that.
Nobody went onto the field to provide entertainment for the masses. It's a great pity but that the inevitable consequence of the pressure for success players are put under by fans and media alike.

Alan didn't beat about the bush either.
The title of his article is:  "You do what you have to when the game is on the line."
One paragraph in particular stood out, for me at least.
" But gamesmanship, defined as the use of methods, especially in a sports contest, that are dubious or seemingly improper but not strictly illegal is common practice amongst the most successful Gaelic teams and it would be difficult to compete without understanding how to push the boundaries that a referee provides."
Personally, I don't like the amount of cynicism and gamesmanship that's to be found in the game today but there's no point in pretending otherwise. Players at this level don't set out to entertain and will go as far as the ref allows in pursuit of victory.

BTW, this is  also from Ó'Sé:
"And, by the way, the argument doing the rounds right now about Dublin GAA getting too much money, in my view, misses the point. What people should be focusing on is how they use that money so well.
Remember, Mayo probably have about a tenth of the Dubs' financial resources, yet only the tiniest of margins separate them on the field. If you ask me, it's high time other counties got their heads out of the sand and began focusing on self-help here."
I see nothing wrong with that either.

Excellent post Lar, thanks for sharing. My initial reaction to the GPS thing was probably a little ott - perhaps as it was something I'd never come across before (throwing something at a freetaker). Perhaps the case should be made for banning ALL GPS trackers!

O'Sé's last piece is absolutely correct. There always has and always will be inequality in the GAA. The beauty is that the "haves" don't always win because there are intangible things (that GPS trackers can't measure) that are often the difference.

I think this defence for Lee Keegan that anyone would do it is ridiculous. No one has done it before and I'd say no one has even thought about it. A huge to leap from pulling down players to throwing a GPS at someone.  I remember Canavan pulling down Colm Cooper in the last minute of an All Ireland final to stop him from getting forward for the goal Kerry needed.

I also don't remember anyone throwing anything at Cillian O'Connor this year or last year when he was taking a free deep into injury time.  It's seems because Dean Rock scored the free the GAA can pretend it didn't happen. What's to stop players throwing water bottles at free takers from now on. By not penalising Lee Keegan how can the GAA punish somebody else who trys the same thing?

I don't think anyone is saying it's right. There are hundreds of things that go on in every game that are against the rules and go unpunished. That's why I find the Sunday evening selective highlighting of incidents so wrong. Highlight them all or none at all.

[criostlinn]

I thought I was finished with the game and the result and the snapping and bitching that followed it but, after reading what both Tómás Ó Sé and Alan Brogan had to say on the result and especially on that Lee Keegan incident, I think it's worth repeating here.
I was very surprised at the amount of  sanctimonious horseshit that was spouted in the wake of Keegan's gamesmanship. I mean there wasn't a single player on the field who wouldn't resort to dubious tactics if he found himself in the same position as Keegan was when Rock prepared to take the free. T
Tómás had this to say:
"I see a big hullaballoo now over Lee Keegan throwing that GPS tracker unit at Rock as he lined up that last decisive free and, if I'm honest, it just makes me laugh.
People might regard that as bad sportsmanship, but those same people clearly don't understand what it's like out there in the bear-pit. Look, I accept that what he did wasn't right, but I've just no appetite for the piety flowing from some quarters now.
Put it this way, up to four Dublin forwards could have been black-carded for their behaviour while Clarke was trying to take that last kick-out. How do you ref that?
It was all desperately cynical but, while we might not like to admit it, I'd venture a suggestion that one of the reasons Sunday's game was so compelling was because of that very ruthlessness. The almost unscrupulous pursuit of victory.
I mean look at Rock after he lands that trojan score. His next act is to run and slam his opponent into the back. While he was doing that, team-mates began wrestling their direct opponents to the ground. You won't see a more cynical close to any game, anywhere, any time."

I see sweet damn all to disagree with in that.
Nobody went onto the field to provide entertainment for the masses. It's a great pity but that the inevitable consequence of the pressure for success players are put under by fans and media alike.

Alan didn't beat about the bush either.
The title of his article is:  "You do what you have to when the game is on the line."
One paragraph in particular stood out, for me at least.
" But gamesmanship, defined as the use of methods, especially in a sports contest, that are dubious or seemingly improper but not strictly illegal is common practice amongst the most successful Gaelic teams and it would be difficult to compete without understanding how to push the boundaries that a referee provides."
Personally, I don't like the amount of cynicism and gamesmanship that's to be found in the game today but there's no point in pretending otherwise. Players at this level don't set out to entertain and will go as far as the ref allows in pursuit of victory.

BTW, this is  also from Ó'Sé:
"And, by the way, the argument doing the rounds right now about Dublin GAA getting too much money, in my view, misses the point. What people should be focusing on is how they use that money so well.
Remember, Mayo probably have about a tenth of the Dubs' financial resources, yet only the tiniest of margins separate them on the field. If you ask me, it's high time other counties got their heads out of the sand and began focusing on self-help here."
I see nothing wrong with that either.

Excellent post Lar, thanks for sharing. My initial reaction to the GPS thing was probably a little ott - perhaps as it was something I'd never come across before (throwing something at a freetaker). Perhaps the case should be made for banning ALL GPS trackers!

O'Sé's last piece is absolutely correct. There always has and always will be inequality in the GAA. The beauty is that the "haves" don't always win because there are intangible things (that GPS trackers can't measure) that are often the difference.

I think this defence for Lee Keegan that anyone would do it is ridiculous. No one has done it before and I'd say no one has even thought about it. A huge to leap from pulling down players to throwing a GPS at someone.  I remember Canavan pulling down Colm Cooper in the last minute of an All Ireland final to stop him from getting forward for the goal Kerry needed.

I also don't remember anyone throwing anything at Cillian O'Connor this year or last year when he was taking a free deep into injury time.  It's seems because Dean Rock scored the free the GAA can pretend it didn't happen. What's to stop players throwing water bottles at free takers from now on. By not penalising Lee Keegan how can the GAA punish somebody else who trys the same thing?

I don't think anyone is saying it's right. There are hundreds of things that go on in every game that are against the rules and go unpunished. That's why I find the Sunday evening selective highlighting of incidents so wrong. Highlight them all or none at all.

I thought I was finished with the game and the result and the snapping and bitching that followed it but, after reading what both Tómás Ó Sé and Alan Brogan had to say on the result and especially on that Lee Keegan incident, I think it's worth repeating here.
I was very surprised at the amount of  sanctimonious horseshit that was spouted in the wake of Keegan's gamesmanship. I mean there wasn't a single player on the field who wouldn't resort to dubious tactics if he found himself in the same position as Keegan was when Rock prepared to take the free. T
Tómás had this to say:
"I see a big hullaballoo now over Lee Keegan throwing that GPS tracker unit at Rock as he lined up that last decisive free and, if I'm honest, it just makes me laugh.
People might regard that as bad sportsmanship, but those same people clearly don't understand what it's like out there in the bear-pit. Look, I accept that what he did wasn't right, but I've just no appetite for the piety flowing from some quarters now.
Put it this way, up to four Dublin forwards could have been black-carded for their behaviour while Clarke was trying to take that last kick-out. How do you ref that?
It was all desperately cynical but, while we might not like to admit it, I'd venture a suggestion that one of the reasons Sunday's game was so compelling was because of that very ruthlessness. The almost unscrupulous pursuit of victory.
I mean look at Rock after he lands that trojan score. His next act is to run and slam his opponent into the back. While he was doing that, team-mates began wrestling their direct opponents to the ground. You won't see a more cynical close to any game, anywhere, any time."

I see sweet damn all to disagree with in that.
Nobody went onto the field to provide entertainment for the masses. It's a great pity but that the inevitable consequence of the pressure for success players are put under by fans and media alike.

Alan didn't beat about the bush either.
The title of his article is:  "You do what you have to when the game is on the line."
One paragraph in particular stood out, for me at least.
" But gamesmanship, defined as the use of methods, especially in a sports contest, that are dubious or seemingly improper but not strictly illegal is common practice amongst the most successful Gaelic teams and it would be difficult to compete without understanding how to push the boundaries that a referee provides."
Personally, I don't like the amount of cynicism and gamesmanship that's to be found in the game today but there's no point in pretending otherwise. Players at this level don't set out to entertain and will go as far as the ref allows in pursuit of victory.

BTW, this is  also from Ó'Sé:
"And, by the way, the argument doing the rounds right now about Dublin GAA getting too much money, in my view, misses the point. What people should be focusing on is how they use that money so well.
Remember, Mayo probably have about a tenth of the Dubs' financial resources, yet only the tiniest of margins separate them on the field. If you ask me, it's high time other counties got their heads out of the sand and began focusing on self-help here."
I see nothing wrong with that either.

Excellent post Lar, thanks for sharing. My initial reaction to the GPS thing was probably a little ott - perhaps as it was something I'd never come across before (throwing something at a freetaker). Perhaps the case should be made for banning ALL GPS trackers!

O'Sé's last piece is absolutely correct. There always has and always will be inequality in the GAA. The beauty is that the "haves" don't always win because there are intangible things (that GPS trackers can't measure) that are often the difference.

I think this defence for Lee Keegan that anyone would do it is ridiculous. No one has done it before and I'd say no one has even thought about it. A huge to leap from pulling down players to throwing a GPS at someone.  I remember Canavan pulling down Colm Cooper in the last minute of an All Ireland final to stop him from getting forward for the goal Kerry needed.

I also don't remember anyone throwing anything at Cillian O'Connor this year or last year when he was taking a free deep into injury time.  It's seems because Dean Rock scored the free the GAA can pretend it didn't happen. What's to stop players throwing water bottles at free takers from now on. By not penalising Lee Keegan how can the GAA punish somebody else who trys the same thing?

First things first. He didn't throw it at Rock, he threw it at the football. I know it doesn't make it quite as dramatic but thems the facts. You probably haven't seen it before because players are only using these good damn gps trackers the last few years.
Secondly If Joe McQuillan had seen it he would have definitely punished Mayo and Keegan by moving the free in. He may even have issued a yellow card. What kind of action should the GAA now take to make up for this outrageous oversight by McQuillan which will appease the Dublin faithful.

As for the dragging down players. If you are ok with what went on at the end of the game, fine so be it. Many's the person have said you do what ever it takes to win so your opinion is not unique  but don't even try and dismiss it by comparing it to what Canavan did 10 years ago. It wasn't one player dragged down of the ball but a team effort using illegal means to slow down the kickout and prevent Clarke finding a man.

[mrhardyannual]

I thought that the most relevant point of Andy's interview was that he would still get his hair cut by Seanie McDermott. Is this as close as Seanie will come to greatness?

[rosnarun]

if the referee has seen Keegan throwing the GPS unit correct action would have been to bring the free forward.( which woiuld havbe been a worse penalty than a black card in the Circumstances)
had the referred had seen 3 Dublin players pull down  mayo players and Costellos  action that would have been 4 black cards and Dublin would have finished with 11 possibly 12 players depending on how many subs they had used .
id have fancied mayo chances to have equalized ....

[westbound]

I'm just gonna throw this out there, because I genuinely don't know the answer

What ACTUAL rule was broken by Keegan throwing the GPS?

And per the rule book what is the correct punishment?

Lots on here saying that the correct punishment would have been to move the ball forward, but where is the rule stating that?

Is there a rule that prohibits throwing something at the ball / another player?

Obviously, what keegan did was wrong but I'm just curious what rule did he actually break?

[Hound]

As for the dragging down players. If you are ok with what went on at the end of the game, fine so be it. Many's the person have said you do what ever it takes to win so your opinion is not unique  but don't even try and dismiss it by comparing it to what Canavan did 10 years ago. It wasn't one player dragged down of the ball but a team effort using illegal means to slow down the kickout and prevent Clarke finding a man.

had the referred had seen 3 Dublin players pull down  mayo players and Costellos  action that would have been 4 black cards and Dublin would have finished with 11 possibly 12 players depending on how many subs they had used .
id have fancied mayo chances to have equalized ....

Are you forgetting what actually happened lads?

There was a number of incidents going on before the Clarke kick out, so McQuillan blew the whistle and stopped him kicking out. McQuillan picked out Costello (for the tee incident perhaps?) and gave him a yellow. He picked out Kilkenny for a drag down and gave him a black. He added on another nearly 2 minutes for this. So the Dublin cynicism in no shape worked, in fact it probably backfired with the added time and one less man on the pitch. 

Clarke then took the kick with Mayo having an extra man. But he made a balls of it. There were two men in the vicinty of Brogan, neither of whom were being fouled. Clarke kicked it over all their heads and out for a sideline! Calm head was required.

[heffo]

As for the dragging down players. If you are ok with what went on at the end of the game, fine so be it. Many's the person have said you do what ever it takes to win so your opinion is not unique  but don't even try and dismiss it by comparing it to what Canavan did 10 years ago. It wasn't one player dragged down of the ball but a team effort using illegal means to slow down the kickout and prevent Clarke finding a man.

had the referred had seen 3 Dublin players pull down  mayo players and Costellos  action that would have been 4 black cards and Dublin would have finished with 11 possibly 12 players depending on how many subs they had used .
id have fancied mayo chances to have equalized ....

Are you forgetting what actually happened lads?

There was a number of incidents going on before the Clarke kick out, so McQuillan blew the whistle and stopped him kicking out. McQuillan picked out Costello (for the tee incident perhaps?) and gave him a yellow. He picked out Kilkenny for a drag down and gave him a black. He added on another nearly 2 minutes for this. So the Dublin cynicism in no shape worked, in fact it probably backfired with the added time and one less man on the pitch. 

Clarke then took the kick with Mayo having an extra man. But he made a balls of it. There were two men in the vicinty of Brogan, neither of whom were being fouled. Clarke kicked it over all their heads and out for a sideline! Calm head was required.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that Mayo adopted the same kick out disruption tactic in the first ten minutes - holding the full back line. Dragging players to the ground.