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Messages - J70

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1
General discussion / Re: The OFFICIAL Liverpool FC thread
« on: Today at 12:02:00 PM »
I still find it strange Holgate was not disciplined in any way with regards to him pushing Firmino into the advertisement boards.

This decision kind of gives precedence to players crying racism, so they get off the hook for do something wrong. IMO i think Holgate just misheard something in Portuguese and jumped to the conclusion but you can be damn sure there'll be some cretin who will try to use this to their advantage.

Amazing that he didn't even get a yellow card.

And you're right, he probably would have except he made the accusation against Firmino.

Aside from the absence of the card though, you have to allow players to appeal to the authorities if they think they've been racially abused. There will be mistakes, there may even be an odd malicious false accusation, but what's the alternative?

To be fair, i think you give Holgate the benefit of the doubt in this case that he genuinely misheard/misinterpreted.

Of course. That's what I said. Everyone should get a fair hearing, and where the case is unproven, if you don't you have evidence that someone maliciously falsely accused someone else, you have to write it off as possibly down to misinterpretation or mishearing.

Unlikely as it is, it could also be that Firmino actually said it and only Holgate heard it, but there is no evidence to support that either.

2
General discussion / Re: Man Utd Thread:
« on: February 22, 2018, 06:43:06 PM »
Didn't Mourinho coin the term "park the bus"? :)

3
General discussion / Re: The OFFICIAL Liverpool FC thread
« on: February 22, 2018, 06:37:06 PM »
I still find it strange Holgate was not disciplined in any way with regards to him pushing Firmino into the advertisement boards.

This decision kind of gives precedence to players crying racism, so they get off the hook for do something wrong. IMO i think Holgate just misheard something in Portuguese and jumped to the conclusion but you can be damn sure there'll be some cretin who will try to use this to their advantage.

Amazing that he didn't even get a yellow card.

And you're right, he probably would have except he made the accusation against Firmino.

Aside from the absence of the card though, you have to allow players to appeal to the authorities if they think they've been racially abused. There will be mistakes, there may even be an odd malicious false accusation, but what's the alternative?

4
General discussion / Re: Man Utd Thread:
« on: February 22, 2018, 03:42:29 PM »
Listen it was 90 minutes of my life i wont get back.. but it served a purpose, stepping stone possibly to the next round, this wasnt a group match or a league game, knockout footballl where no one remembers the losers...

What do fans want? winners or losers who play with flair? Its a hard pill to swallow but Utd are not the team of yesterday!

Is the point not that with United's riches and standing that they should be able to have both?

Ferguson's teams ebbed and flowed in terms of at the attractiveness of the football (I thought the days of Kanchelskis and Giggs flying up the wings were the best, personally) and played pragmatic football when necessary, but they rarely hit the consistent dourness of this Mourinho team (this is the man who criticized Big Sam for "19th century football" a few years back). If Sevilla was a once-off, no one would be saying anything.

I remember Liverpool being celebrated for grinding out a 0-0 away to Juve in 2005, but that was with a team missing vital players and with Djimi Traore, Igor Biscan and Antonio f**king Nunez in the line-up and up against Del Piero, Ibrahimovic, Cannavaro, Nedved, Buffon and the rest. Plus, football has changed since then and 0-0s away from home are no longer a prized result with the capability of most decent teams now to score a goal or two away.

5
General discussion / Re: The OFFICIAL Liverpool FC thread
« on: February 22, 2018, 02:22:16 PM »
Not sure about elsewhere, but the use of the term "colored" is definitely not acceptable in the states any more. Too much association with segregation.

But like johnneycoool, I've had to correct a parent on their use of it on occasion!

Back to the main topic though... Liverpool haven't beaten West Ham on their last three visits to Anfield, although they've hammered them twice away in the two most recent meetings. So hopefully Moyes won't break the habit of a lifetime, and Liverpool will move above United in the table for the first this season, even if only for a day.

6
General discussion / Re: The OFFICIAL Liverpool FC thread
« on: February 21, 2018, 08:29:19 PM »
Took them long enough, but I guess they want to be thorough.

7
General discussion / Re: The OFFICIAL Liverpool FC thread
« on: February 21, 2018, 12:26:33 AM »
Mane had two tap ins and a screamer when the tie never mind the match was as good as dead. He butchered 2-3 chances whilst the game was still in the melting pot. I donít mean to be too hard on him but he preformed as he has been lately, consistently taking the wrong decision. Hopefully the hat-trick is the kick in the ass he needs.

Firmino continues to amaze me. Heís technically a very limited footballer and just by observing him heís clearly in a level below mo and courinho but thereís still some mercurial quality behind him. Iíd guarantee if he was playing for United or a team without a attacking threat heíd look like Dogshit. Thereís just a perfect foil between him and this Liverpool style of play, which seems to magnify his qualities as a footballer.

Back in this thread for the first time in a few weeks but WHAT?

Over the past month alone we've had his goals against City, Huddersfield and WBA, all involving superb pieces of skill, plus the backheel flick/assist for Salah against Southampton. That's before you get near his outstanding game intelligence.

Vinny Jones he ain't.

9
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: February 03, 2018, 09:25:28 PM »
Why are senior DOJ officials holding secret meetings with Steele and Fusion GPS?

Was the FISA judge informed that this was opposition research?

How influential was the dossier in getting the wiretapping warrant?
I
Had the DOJ attempted to surveillance other Trump associates?

Unless we get answers to these questions the Mueller Investigation is tainted beyond belief.

All these shenanigans are undermining the investigation.

Why is Mueller tainted?

I said the Mueller Investigation was tainted, not Mueller himself.....big difference

If the warrants were improperly obtained because someone at the FBI/DOJ either lied or didn't disclose where the dossier came from (add in Bruce Ohrs unauthorized meeting with both Steele and Fusion GPS) the entire investigation can be brushed off as a partisan hit job

Obviously I meant the investigation.

The warrants in question predated the dossier. They key obviously is whether their renewal hinged on the dossier or not.

If they didn't, what does that mean for Mueller?

And what about the obstruction of justice stuff? Does that disappear? If so, Bill Clinton will be having a moment of bitter reflection. Perjured himself and got impeached over testimony over a bj which had nothing to do with the origins of the Starr investigation.


10
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: February 03, 2018, 08:51:59 PM »
Why are senior DOJ officials holding secret meetings with Steele and Fusion GPS?

Was the FISA judge informed that this was opposition research?

How influential was the dossier in getting the wiretapping warrant?

Had the DOJ attempted to surveillance other Trump associates?

Unless we get answers to these questions the Mueller Investigation is tainted beyond belief.

All these shenanigans are undermining the investigation.

Why is Mueller tainted?

11
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: February 03, 2018, 07:50:17 PM »
http://www.zdnet.com/article/in-obamas-final-year-us-secret-court-denied-record-number-of-surveillance-requests/

In Obamas final year a record number of FISA requests were denied

We also need to know why they were denied and who was the subject of the wiretap?

This whole thing stinks to high heaven

0.5% were rejected. 9/1,752.

Sounds like there's serious abuse of the system going on all right.

But yeah, let's get some answers. And let's keep the transparency going.

However, I would imagine that in this, like most outragefests, the actual results are not the point; the opportunity to spin the other side as evil demons while you demand an investigation is.

If im reading it correctly 21 were rejected in close to 40 years of those 21, 9 were rejected  in Obamas final year

Who were they trying to surveil and why were they rejected?

Add in the fact that one of the most senior DOJ officials was secretly meeting with Steele and Fusion GPS

WE NEED ANSWERS!

Think you need to bold the letters and make them bigger. ;)

It could be a multitude of reasons. Stricter judges, sloppy work on the part of employees, someone chancing their arm for partisan reasons...

I have little knowledge of the workings of the FISA world (same as most people).

On this site, however, there is a note for 2016 regarding a change in the reporting requirements for 2016: https://epic.org/privacy/surveillance/fisa/stats/

28. The Government's reporting methodology changed significantly in 2016. The letter states that "In addition to reporting statistics based on the number of final filed applications, as has been the Government's historical practice, this letter also includes for the first time statistics published by the Director of the Administrative Office of the United States Courts (AOUSA). Unlike the Government, the AOUSA reports the number of proposed applications rather than the number of final filed applications. More specifically, Rule 9(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court Rules of Procedure requires the Government to submit proposed applications at least seven days before the Government seeks to have a matter entertained by the FISC. Modifications or withdrawals of applications may occur between the filing of a proposed application and the filing of a final application for a variety of reasons, including the Government modifying a proposed application in response to questions or concerns raised by the Court.


Assuming these are the same figures, perhaps the inclusion of "proposed", instead of just "final filed" applications in the numbers is a factor. Would "proposed" applications ever be rushed before a judge and rejected (or otherwise end up as "rejected")?

Possibly not, but again, disclaimer, I have absolutely no clue and am just contributing to a low-information discussion.

For someone who is so adamant that there is skullduggery on the part of the Dems and some FBI people, however, you're very reluctant to draw any conclusions from the patterns and actions of Trump and his associates. Even if you're right on the former, it doesn't preclude wrongdoing on the part of the latter.



12
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: February 03, 2018, 06:50:11 PM »
http://www.zdnet.com/article/in-obamas-final-year-us-secret-court-denied-record-number-of-surveillance-requests/

In Obamas final year a record number of FISA requests were denied

We also need to know why they were denied and who was the subject of the wiretap?

This whole thing stinks to high heaven

0.5% were rejected. 9/1,752.

Sounds like there's serious abuse of the system going on all right.

But yeah, let's get some answers. And let's keep the transparency going.

However, I would imagine that in this, like most outragefests, the actual results are not the point; the opportunity to spin the other side as evil demons while you demand an investigation is.

13
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: February 03, 2018, 02:25:56 PM »
So lets put the shoe on the other foot for a moment and say John Podesta (who has serious Russian issues himself) was wiretapped while running Hillarys campaign. The FISA warrants for the wiretap were approved in part based on an unverified opposition research memo paid for and directed by the Trump Campaign and the RNC.  Based on what youve said so far, youd be perfectly fine with that???

Oh And while all this is going on a senior DOJ official (under a sitting Republican administration) held 2 secret meetings with the firm that drafted the unverified memo.

If the other evidence on Podesta suggested that there were legitimate grounds for concern, absolutely. And I would have no issue with any law enforcement official meeting with such sources to find out what they know.

Which of course is not to say that the rules for disclosure should not be followed.





The DOJ official held 2 UNAUTHORIZED and UNDISCLOSED  meetings and was DEMOTED for doing so.

He was not a law enforcement official going about his regular business as you casually implied

And As far as I know he also failed to disclose that his wife worked for Fusion GPS.

The he 2 questions that now need to be answered are:

(1) Woukd and he warrant have been issued without the dossier?

(2) Was it disclosed in the FISA application that the dossier was opposition research paid for by the DNC and the Clinton campaign?

If the answer is no to either (or both) of these question.....then this is a huge win for Trump

IF there was stuff going on that needed to be authorized from above, then of course action should be taken against any such individual.

And yes, those are the two questions, although I would think the first one is the key one.

If the application would have been approved anyway, I donít the disclosure thing being of much help to Trump.

Especially when the entire picture is taken into account.

This is all about PR. Trump is not being prosecuted or impeached, and he doesnít give a f**k about underlings, unless, as some speculation suggest, his kids are under the microscope.

14
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: February 03, 2018, 01:25:01 PM »
So lets put the shoe on the other foot for a moment and say John Podesta (who has serious Russian issues himself) was wiretapped while running Hillarys campaign. The FISA warrants for the wiretap were approved in part based on an unverified opposition research memo paid for and directed by the Trump Campaign and the RNC.  Based on what youve said so far, youd be perfectly fine with that???

Oh And while all this is going on a senior DOJ official (under a sitting Republican administration) held 2 secret meetings with the firm that drafted the unverified memo.

If the other evidence on Podesta suggested that there were legitimate grounds for concern, absolutely. And I would have no issue with any law enforcement official meeting with such sources to find out what they know.

Which of course is not to say that the rules for disclosure should not be followed.


15
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: February 03, 2018, 12:10:28 PM »
If what is in the memo is accurate folks have some 'splainin to do.

Intentionaly misleading or lying a to federal judge in order to obtain a FISA warrant is a serious offense


McCabe supposedly said (under oath) that the FBI likely wouldnt have gotten the warrant were it not for the Steele Dossier. FBI neglected to tell FISA judges that source of the memo-DNC

Indeed.

But maybe we should wait and see (assuming its released) what the other memo says.

All we're getting is partisan spin and noise from both sides, one side crying "worse than Watergate", the other calling it a cherry-picked attempt to muddy the water, and with Trump's own DOJ opposing him on this and yet more of his appointees being lined up for dismissal as the Mueller investigation progresses and gets closer to interviewing himself and asking difficult questions about the conduct of his kids.

What the fvck have Schiff and Pelosi been ranting and raving about for the last week?  They now look like complete idiots.

BTW.....I am all for releasing BOTH memos

Trump is playing them like a fiddle.......next time the Democrats have their hair on fire about the declassification of some document, they wont have a leg to stand on

What are you talking about? The GOP have led this issue for purely political reasons. Do you think they'd have brought all this info to light if it harmed Trump or he and the White House opposed it? His own Justice Dept opposed it FFS. Once again you focus your outrage on the Dems while the GOP attitude on declassification is staring you in the face!

And how can you can be adamant that Schiff looks like an idiot? You don't even know what's in their memo or what else is going to come out.

And sorry, I don't subscribe to your oft-proclaimed implication of Trump the genius playing 3D chess. This episode may work for him. Or it may not. Especially if he uses it to engineer the eventual removal of Mueller.

Ehhhhh....so now we all need to see McCabes testimony and the FISA warrant to really know whats going on. 

My best guess is that this is just the first domino to fall. There will be a parrallel investigation into the FISA application to distract from Mueller and Trump will emerge relatively unscathed

If Schiff objects to either being released, who'll believe a word out of his mouth based on his histrionics this past week

Hes scared shitless of these documents being released.

Keep in mind, Trump and his cronies know a whole lot more than you and I.....they know whats in these documents and this was a chess move to bring all this stuff out into the public domain

The Steele Dossier was a textbook Clinton/DNC dirty trick.....I have absolutely no problem with the Republicans meeting fire with fire and doing whatever is necessary to xpose it as such

As does Schiff.

And there's plenty on the GOP side objecting to the way this all went down.

But, no, less settle on the corrupt Dems/poor desperate GOP finally fighting back version. :o

BTW, I agree Trump will eventually emerge intact (not unscathed). Whether or not he did anything, the DOJ are not going to charge him, no matter what Mueller finds, even if its more than a pattern of obstruction of justice. And if there's no indictment, we probably won't be getting too many details of Mueller's findings.

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