Next Sunday marks the 132nd. anniversary of the Apparition at Knock.
According to eye witness accounts, Our Lady, St. Joseph and St. John the Evangelist appeared at the south gable of Knock Parish Church. The apparition was witnessed by fifteen people, young and old.
Controversy has raged ever since; two Church commissions were set up to investigate the accounts; one a few weeks later and the other in 1936. Both bodies found the witness accounts to be accurate and truthful and concluded that a miracle had taken place.
One of the last surviving witnesses, Mary Byrne (or Beirne) told the 1936 commission 'I am clear about everything I have said and I make this statement knowing I am going before my God'. She died six weeks later.
On the debit side, sociologists have noted that social and economic conditions were ripe for a 'visitation' to take place. Some have put it down to mass hysteria brought on by the desire of the witnesses to believe that the Holy Family was aware of their plight and had appeared to bring them comfort and hope.
For believers and non-believers alike, some facts are irrefutable: one and a half million people visited the shrine last year and untold millions have made pilgrimages there since 1879. Many 'cures' have been reported which, if true, defy medical explanation.
But were the 'cures' manifestations of divine intervention or instances of mind over matter, inspired by simple faith?
Anyone care to discuss?
It was all in their heads.
As for "miracle cures", I can't comment on Knock but I gather that the total number of "cures" at Lourdes is something in the order of 65. Out of the millions of people who have visited the place over the years, that's hardly an impressive average. I'd rather take my chances with the UK's NHS thank you very much.
Have you ever been to Lourdes? There are signs all over the place sponsored by people who have been 'cured'.
So there are thousands who claim to have been cured, but only sixty odd that have been declared miracles.
I believe there's something in the mind over matter theory. Do many people here use cures? As in going to visit someone who has a cure for a particular illness that has been passed down to them? Surely this is mind over matter.
A doctor in Craigavon, told my sis-in-law that in the month before the all-ireland in 2002 the number of patients he seen was down big time and he believed it was due to the feel good factor created by qualifying for the all-Ireland. This backs the mind over matter theory imo
Yeah I can't see it being true. I do believe that there is a god but to be honest the Bible annoys me because it is full of untruths and madness. (Have a listen to Dave Allen if you don't believe me).
As a guide to living a better life sure the bible is a decent foundation as long as you don't get too carried away with it.
If people need a place like Lourdes or Knock to have some faith in a higher being and then ultimately themselves then who are we to ridicule them.
Quote from: WeeDonns on August 16, 2011, 09:58:03 AM
Have you ever been to Lourdes? There are signs all over the place sponsored by people who have been 'cured'.
So there are thousands who claim to have been cured, but only sixty odd that have been declared miracles.
I believe there's something in the mind over matter theory. Do many people here use cures? As in going to visit someone who has a cure for a particular illness that has been passed down to them? Surely this is mind over matter.
A doctor in Craigavon, told my sis-in-law that in the month before the all-ireland in 2002 the number of patients he seen was down big time and he believed it was due to the feel good factor created by qualifying for the all-Ireland. This backs the mind over matter theory imo
You have to feel sorry for that poor doctor. Since then, and particularly in recent years, his practice must be swamped.
Here's a great little experiment in the power of suggestion from a TED talk by Michael Schermer, Why people believe strange things. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T_jwq9ph8k)
This is a piece from Stairway To Heaven played backwards, which has been suggested by woo merchants to contain satanic messages. It's not very good quality audio (and please excuse the logo voice-over - I used a demo package to convert the file) but Listen (http://www.ziddu.com/download/16069030/message.mp3.html) to it and see if you can make any sense of it. (Don't click the big "PLAY NOW" button at the top - click the "Play" link further down.)
Now, programme your auditory receptors by looking at what it's supposed to say (http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu206/Hardyarse/stairwaybackwards.png) while you listen again.
Surprising, isn't it?
Godamit. I couldn't resist the Play Now button and I'm watching some kind of lesbian sex marathon.
I think there is a thread somewhere on the board on Cures.
Lourdes is an amazing place. I don't think you will fully understand it until you go there. Go to the shrine late at night when nobody else is about (obviously with the right frame of mind and intent) and see what happens.
I personally don't get the same experience in Knock. i am not refuting the claims that there was an apparition. I just don't get that same experience.
Like The Iceman, I've been to Lourdes on many occasions and it's a place of great importance and peace to me. There is no other place, other than Croke Park and home, that I'd rather be.
Also like The Iceman, Knock is just a place I've visited. It's nice and everything, but I don't get the same sense of serenity.
Quote from: The Iceman on August 16, 2011, 02:57:53 PM
I personally don't get the same experience in Knock. i am not refuting the claims that there was an apparition. I just don't get that same experience.
They need to do something with the lighting then.
From the pictures it looks like Lourdes has tall trees and a nice hilly landscape as the setting. You have an impressive castle on the hill, the shrine itself is set into a cozy looking grotto, and the basilica is a beautiful piece of architecture. I'd say at night time you could get a very intense atmosphere going with all the right lighting effects and enough people gathered up. Large crowds generate a lot of energy when everyone's focused on the same thing, same as how you get a better atmosphere at games when the crowd is bigger, the game itself feels bigger.
At Knock you seem to have a bit of a windswept flat landscape and a none-too-impressive basilica. The backdrop to the shrine is the grey gable wall of a small chapel. I'd imagine the crowds would be a lot smaller than the ones you get at Lourdes too. Plus there would be fewer people in the area anyway, the population of Knock is about 500 compared to 15,000 at Lourdes. And let's face it, Mayo isn't exactly the south of France.
I still think that Lourdes has a less than impressive batting average at 67 'miracles' out of 200 million visitors.
I'm talking about being there by yourself or with a handful of people at 2 in the morning. Thats where I get the experience.
You should go sometime Eamonn, would do you the power of good.
A bath would do you no harm if nothing else..... ;)
Quote from: The Iceman on August 16, 2011, 07:32:07 PM
I'm talking about being there by yourself or with a handful of people at 2 in the morning. Thats where I get the experience.
You should go sometime Eamonn, would do you the power of good.
I get the same Serenity at 2am at the lough shore. I think that's her name.
Quote from: The Iceman on August 16, 2011, 07:32:07 PM
I'm talking about being there by yourself or with a handful of people at 2 in the morning. Thats where I get the experience.
You should go sometime Eamonn, would do you the power of good.
A bath would do you no harm if nothing else..... ;)
Oh I'm sure I'll pay it a visit at some stage. And I'll pipe up in the middle of the rosary "It's all a load of ballix!"
Seriously though, I would like to see these places out of curiosity.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 16, 2011, 07:40:37 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on August 16, 2011, 07:32:07 PM
I'm talking about being there by yourself or with a handful of people at 2 in the morning. Thats where I get the experience.
You should go sometime Eamonn, would do you the power of good.
A bath would do you no harm if nothing else..... ;)
Oh I'm sure I'll pay it a visit at some stage. And I'll pipe up in the middle of the rosary "It's all a load of ballix!"
Seriously though, I would like to see these places out of curiosity.
You can volunteer at Lourdes to help in the Hospitals. I did it a few times. You don't need to have any religion to assist with sick people. A good person like yourself, able bodied and a willingness to help others is all you need. They are in desperate need of help all year round.
Speaking of serenity, you know where I used to go? Grace Cathedral in San Francisco. Nice oul place to visit. They have organ recitals on a Sunday afternoon, you can just go in and listen. They have a 'labyrinth' carpet thing (and a concrete one outside) where you wander back and forth along this path by a circuitous route to the middle. People walk along it, some people meditate on it, some people pause to do yoga and stuff. All very secular, all very spiritual, no need to join in with any "praise the lord" activities even though it's actually an Anglican cathedral.
The thing about cathedrals and places like that is that it's all about the imposing building, the lighting, the acoustics, the decorum, and the things that all fit together to create an atmosphere. Why do you think they built medieval cathedrals? It was for a variety of reasons, but the effect it had on people on those days would have been huge. Imagine people who live in mud huts with no glass windows walking in large groups into an imposing stone building with high vaulted ceilings taller than the tallest trees and sunlight coming in through coloured glass? No wonder people were taken in by the whole thing. These are all tricks of the mind that can quite easily be interpreted as some sort of external spiritual 'presence'.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 16, 2011, 07:50:13 PM
Speaking of serenity, you know where I used to go? Grace Cathedral in San Francisco. Nice oul place to visit. They have organ recitals on a Sunday afternoon, you can just go in and listen. They have a 'labyrinth' carpet thing (and a concrete one outside) where you wander back and forth along this path by a circuitous route to the middle. People walk along it, some people meditate on it, some people pause to do yoga and stuff. All very secular, all very spiritual, no need to join in with any "praise the lord" activities even though it's actually an Anglican cathedral.
The thing about cathedrals and places like that is that it's all about the imposing building, the lighting, the acoustics, the decorum, and the things that all fit together to create an atmosphere. Why do you think they built medieval cathedrals? It was for a variety of reasons, but the effect it had on people on those days would have been huge. Imagine people who live in mud huts with no glass windows walking in large groups into an imposing stone building with high vaulted ceilings taller than the tallest trees and sunlight coming in through coloured glass? No wonder people were taken in by the whole thing. These are all tricks of the mind that can quite easily be interpreted as some sort of external spiritual 'presence'.
The experience I get in Lourdes at the grotto and amoung the faithful or at the baths I also got in Assisi. Not in a Church or a building, actually as soon as I stepped out of the taxi. It is a great place to find peace. If you ever make it to Rome definitely make the trip.
Would Christians agree with me that that Atheists can find peace just as well as Christians?
Quote from: theskull1 on August 17, 2011, 12:40:38 AM
Would Christians agree with me that that Atheists can find peace just as well as Christians?
Yes.
Cynics have suggested that some sort of magic lantern was used by hoaxers to project an image of what the 15 saw onto the gable wall of the church.
IMO, that theory is implausible.
While the magic lantern type of image projector may well have been known in Mayo at the time, the sort of light source needed to project a clear image onto the gable wall would have been hard, if not impossible, to come by. Besides, the entire contraption would have to be set up in close proximity to the gable wall and would have been in clear view of the witnesses—one of whom swore she went right up to the wall and touched it.
So, fiddlesticks to the image projection theorists.
However, I have a copy of a letter sent to my grandmother by an elderly relation in America and it the writer recounts a story that was doing the rounds when the apparition is said to have taken place. The old woman who wrote the letter was a native of Knock and was a teenager at the time in question. So she was old enough to know what was going on.
According to her, most people in Knock knew that three 'vagabonds'' had been 'skylarking' at the gable wall of the church and had a bright light of some sort with them.
When the witnesses saw this flickering light reflecting off the whitewashed wall, they concluded they were witnessing a 'divine manifestation.' The rest, as we say, is history.
Could this account be true?
There is a live possibility that it is.
Carbide was a very popular commodity in those days. It was called the 'poitĂn of the poor' and was used to induce a high that could last for days. All it took was a few drops of water added to a few grains of carbide to produce acetylene gas. A few sniff of this gas and you'd be away with the fairies.
I read of an 'historic debauch' that lasted four days.
It was a very cheap and fast method to get zonked out but it was extremely dangerous way to go about doing this. Many died or woke up brain damaged.
The gas created when water is added to carbide is highly inflammable and burns with an intensely bright light.
If the three buckos had been sheltering in the lee of the church wall and were half cut from the effects of their gas sniffing, it's possible that they set fire to the gas issuing from their carbide container.
It might explain why they scarpered before anyone cam forward to investigate; if their fathers or the landlord found out what they had been doing, there would be hell to pay.