Quote from: David McKeown on April 16, 2024, 11:18:34 PMQuote from: yellowcard on April 16, 2024, 11:07:38 PMQuote from: David McKeown on April 16, 2024, 10:15:29 PMQuote from: screenexile on April 16, 2024, 10:05:03 PMQuote from: David McKeown on April 16, 2024, 09:08:59 PMQuote from: Armagh18 on April 16, 2024, 08:55:21 PMQuote from: David McKeown on April 16, 2024, 08:49:02 PMHmm, honestly if you said to me now win Ulster and go out in group or lose in Ulster and lose in a semi final I think I'd take an Ulster given a fair chunk of our team were in primary school when we last won it.Quote from: JoG2 on April 16, 2024, 05:58:47 PMQuote from: David McKeown on April 16, 2024, 03:03:17 PMQuote from: Itchy on April 16, 2024, 01:02:45 PMQuote from: Tones on April 16, 2024, 11:28:47 AMIs it really? Most counties have goals at the start of the year, get promoted, avoid relegation, beat neighbours etc. do they really need a coping mechanism of devaluing competitions, I seriously doubt it. There are about 26 counties under the new system never going win Sam, Derry don't need another Ulster but will probably win it, any other county would relish it.
I believe JoG2 was referring the fans attempting to devalue a competition as a defense mechanism for if they don't win it. Armagh will have failed this year (again) if they do not win Ulster. How anyone can think different is beyond me.
What if they lose Ulster but play in an All Ireland final. Is that a bigger failure than winning Ulster and then going out in the groups?
You're changing angles here. What is having a good year, which reaching an AI final for most teams is, got to do with questioning the value of the Anglo Celt cup which you did? A hypothetical appearance in an AI final shouldn't come into the equation.
You're Armagh yes, very surprising considering the last 15+ years winning nothing. Derry winning 2 years ago was incredible, winning back to back was, well incredible. The thought of winning a treble, well that's the stuff of dreams. Worry about any attack on a Sam after.
The answer is the Ulster Championship is not viewed in isolation You've said Armagh will have failed this year if they don't win Ulster. I disagree. They could miss out on Ulster and make an All Ireland final which to me would be far less of a failure than winning Ulster and going out in the group stages. Similarly I'd rather have been promoted this year than win Ulster. That's not to say doing both wouldn't be nice but simply that Ulster can be viewed in isolation.
You are holding the Anglo Celt up as some kind of be all and end all for the season. It's not. For me If your county would prefer to win an Ulster and nothing else this year then it's extremely meaningful. If your county would prefer a deep run in the All Ireland series then Ulster is less meaningful.
(Pointless argument anyway because if you win Ulster and go in as top seed there would be something seriously wrong if you couldnt at least make a preliminary QF)
That's a perfectly valid view but I don't think it's one universally shared. I don't feel that way and I feel a provincial championship is as meaningful as it once was.
When you have 6 teams capable of beating eachother in a one off game in a competition it's certainly an achievement to win it!!
I genuinely don't think you have that in Ulster this year but I take your point. My issue is that it's not as meaningful as it once was. I don't think any of those 6 counties are going 100% to win an Ulster at the expense of their future progress certainly not to the extent they might have in years gone bye. For me that makes it less meaningful than it used to be. As has the introduction of the back door. As has the moved to being played in April/May. As has the talk of it potentially being axed all together etc etc.
So I don't think I'm devaluing it out of some kind of coping mechanism for not winning it. I think it merely has become devalued. That's not a view shared by all and I accept that.
What do you think those counties are doing (or not doing) to lead you believe that they are giving less than 100%?
I think every county are trying their best to win a provincial title but for some it's just a safeguard mechanism that if they happen to fail along the way. The proper judgement on that will only come when the season has ended and the year as a whole can be properly assessed.
I don't think they plan to peak for a run at Ulster. I think training is set so they are at a good enough level for Ulster but hope to peak for the later matches. I think they know that being at your absolute best from April to August is much more difficult than peaking in mid to late June. I think in the modern sport science approach that many of the top counties have a similar approach.
In a similar vein I don't think fellas will risk injuries by playing when not fit in provincial games the way you would have seen in previous years.
Of course I could be wrong. As you say the only way you'll ever know is in hindsight.
I don't think player fitness levels will fluctuate very much throughout a season the way players are conditioned now. It's not like in the past where players came back pre season with weight to shed and could train for 4-6 week blocks before the League season or championship campaign began. There just isn't the room to do that anymore and they are conditioned to play matches week on week with a good base line fitness level built up. An injured player mightn't wish to put his season in jeopardy by coming back too soon alright but I don't believe that any county aren't giving 100% to win a provincial championship as there aren't that many cups to win.
Kerry and Dublin might be the rare exception as they are so far ahead of the opposition in their provinces they could probably afford to not taper too much before matches and still win their provinces easily.