Attendances

[armaghniac]

Kildare are the greatest underachievers in the GAA over a long period of time. While they are crap now, Meath have been top class at some periods.

[From the Bunker]

Kildare are the greatest underachievers in the GAA over a long period of time. While they are crap now, Meath have been top class at some periods.

To be fair Mayo hold that title. The thing is what is underachievement? Where do Carlow, Waterford, Tipperary, Cavan (football) come in relation to underachievement. How about Leitrim? Laois in Hurling? Dublin in Hurling? Limerick in Hurling? What is achievement for Armagh?

[armaghniac]

Kildare are the greatest underachievers in the GAA over a long period of time. While they are crap now, Meath have been top class at some periods.

To be fair Mayo hold that title. The thing is what is underachievement? Where do Carlow, Waterford, Tipperary, Cavan (football) come in relation to underachievement. How about Leitrim? Laois in Hurling? Dublin in Hurling? Limerick in Hurling? What is achievement for Armagh?

While we all like to slag Mayo, they have been in finals and in recent years giving Dublin a game. They are not underachievers overall, just bad at closing the deal. After 1935 Kildare have only 3 provincial titles, this is an underachievement.

[Dinny Breen]

Kildare are the greatest underachievers in the GAA over a long period of time. While they are crap now, Meath have been top class at some periods.

The only thing Kildare have got to do with fallen attendances is that their supporters see financial doping for what it is and that there is no level playing field. Meath supporters as well. Stick to your shit Ulster championship, where Armagh haven't even reached a final in 10 years and waste money on McGeeny. Crowds in Ulster are down as well but let's just pretend everything is fine in the world outside Leinster.

By way Meath (47.6%) and Kildare(45.3%) have the largest populations of people from outside the county. I thank everyone's favourite asshole for that stat. Again MacKenna, doing great work while the rest of the MSM pays it lip service

http://www.punditarena.com/gaa/emackenna/death-leinster-football-upon-us/

At first glance, there seemed nothing unusual or untoward about the notice.

The bus would leave for the Dublin-Wicklow quarter-final in O'Moore Park, Portlaoise from outside the local clubhouse at 1.30pm on the dot; juveniles would be a fiver; adults were €20, but that included the first drowning or celebratory drink back in the bar upon return. No different to many other places up and down the country on summer Sundays. Move along, nothing to see here.

There was one problem though. The notice belonged to Donaghmore-Ashbourne. In Meath.

Subsequently removed from social media, it'll be a while before it's forgotten. And while there's nothing fundamentally wrong with catering for locals, it was a microcosm of Leinster's ills. Just imagine such a stunt being pulled only a generation back, when health was measured in hatred.

There have been other instances in recent times from places that used to provide the necessary opposing side to any rivalry, pushing back against a county that represented so many values that were no worse, rather different. In south Kildare, a football heartland not long ago, Grange didn't have any of their own countymen turning the sod on a new pitch in 2017, but Bernard Brogan. Meanwhile even closer to the frontier, last March a major fundraiser for Clane saw Jim Gavin attend, while last September their clubhouse hosted an event headlined by Dublin's champions with a trophy they've taken ownership of, offering locals what'll be their only chance to touch it.

It reminded that you should never patronise someone who knows they don't deserve it, for they will be quick to compliment your failures.



These are all little examples of both the how and why around football dying in the province as it retreats like a glacier in the sun. As much as a stronger Dublin was often touted as being crucial, and still is by certain suits living in the short term, they need someone to give them a game. But that latter part was forgotten by a GAA always out with its milking stool, eyeing up the cash cow.

Consider Leixlip as an example. A major growth centre that's rapidly gone from a village to a town of over 15,000 people, there are two clubs there. Last year though they had to amalgamate at minor level due to a lack of interest rather than a lack of work. There's no funding for such a place, but based on the same parameters of sprawl, a four-mile drive to the other side of Weston Airport is Lucan Sarsfields which is blooming, helped along by GAA money pumped into coaches and organisers. Some animals aren't meant to be more equal than others, yet the GAA has justified centrally funded expertise going to one and not the other because of no more than a border.

That is the definition of bias. And that exact bias has destroyed what was once so special to all.

Those with their heads in the sand, leaving their arses in the air, will correctly point to the fact that in the capital the GAA only pay half of Games Development Officers' wages, with the rest needing to be raised by the club or clubs that wish to use them. But they rarely point out that the Leinster Council model operates in the same way.

The difference is others cannot afford their half, as their counties simply don't have the market share to attract big business for sponsorship. If you don't believe us, think what happened when Kildare last approached multi-nationals in their midst.

So much of this is about the brand and that is telling. There's no escaping that global effect, and there's a reason world leaders used to come out at the Davos Economic Summit each year and say action was needed as 90 percent of global wealth was owned by 10 percent of the population, and now they come out and bemoan 1,000 people clasping 99 percent of the planet's money.

It's unrelenting and more than ever folk buy what they are sold. Sport is the same as the bigger you get, the more you hoover up and it's self-fulfilling. In our own little GAA way, Dublin is proof of this.

It's little wonder that in an era where the GAA's obvious attitude of favouritism has not only prevailed but been normalised, those from the wrong side of the tracks know they cannot win thus try far less. Indeed while Meath players have been vocal on this with the likes of Paddy O'Rourke saying what's the point, others also think it.

In recent years speaking to current players from three other counties – including Kildare after a Leinster final and a Longford player who now must be annihilated by Dublin again – they agreed. They couldn't prevail. And if you think that's loser talk then you don't understand modern sport and what certain advantages and certain numbers mean.

When the Las Vegas Knights went out to play their first game of the Stanley Cup finals in their inaugural season recently, their coach Gerard Gallant's last words were important across sports. "Let's go out and have some fun," he said. But that's not possible when a beating is inevitable.

None of this is to say that Carlow and Longford toppling two former powerhouses in the province wasn't wonderful, in fact just listening to Brendan Hennessy's and Willie Quinlan's screaming around a press box that showed what football can briefly and used to always mean.

Speaking to my father after that game in Tullamore, he said a Carlow kid beside his Dad on the terrace, both too scared to think of winning in case it might jinx it in the final minutes, gave him a flashback to us years ago clad in white. There's a key difference though as then, while a win was rarely met with another, there was always the dream of going a little further such was the relative parity.

Heading into the weekend's Leinster semi-finals, Laois can talk of being nine games unbeaten this year; Carlow can talk of only losing to Laois as well as promotion and a scalp for the ages; Longford could have been promoted too, but many would gladly have traded that for their last day out. But for all the interest and attention that will have brought, a corpse and a bag of lime await them all. Optimism is the faith that leads to achievement; nothing can be done without hope or confidence.

What good will the inevitable do for Longford on Sunday? And get to a Leinster final and, for the winners of the other game, it'll be no different as they'll be asked to pay to watch their identity humiliated and their work dismantled as the next generation lose interest and this generation realise it's all for nothing.

Wicklow had it the last day, met by mocking cheers when they scored. Kids now don't believe in pride of place. It's that place that has to give them the pride but it can't.

It's not even as simple as those who say look at Monaghan and how they maximise what they have. That's true, but when they come up against Dublin in the summer they haven't got near them, and they're fortunate those encounters are rare.

It's key for those in the other provinces as they tend to lose narrowly and limp into the qualifiers or, if they do get to face and lose to Dublin later, they tend to have a trophy or big wins to show. No Leinster player gets that chance to hoist silverware to the point it's fair to say that no counties suffer from the system like those in the east.

That leaves a pivotal and problematic question around whether the rest of the province exists merely to facilitate Dublin's needs and wants? All evidence sadly says that's a rhetorical query.

Not long ago county teams in Meath and Kildare were institutions, the players heroes for adults, idols for children. And in the latter's case it wasn't even about winning as their record shows, rather the chance to win. That's no longer the case. It's not even an ambition for many anymore. Their recent losses were even met with disinterested laughter from within as opposed to dismay. They've PTSD and anyone with such doesn't really tend to yearn for more of what caused it.

For sure Kildare could be doing more turning underage teams that go toe-to-toe with Dublin into a senior outfit with more motivation and method; Meath need to start a bit earlier. But their reality is that if Dublin have tens of multiples of their resources, are they going to go all in in terms of commitment to lose heavily or just go easy and lose by a few more? The outcome is human nature.

If you ask teachers about jersey days in schools around the commuter belt, places you often hear should be doing better given population by those without an understanding of the reality, the answers are standard. Premier League soccer and Dublin GAA tops dominate, and last come the local county. It's replicated over and over.

Given the influx of those from the capital into these areas, the clubs there should be straining at the seams as if a Dublin superclub, only they aren't. In some cases, transplant parents continue to bring kids back to their home club. But more often than not these places are dormitory towns, a place for people to sleep, not to interact and to live.

It'll get worse too, even without the GAA's efforts. No county has had bigger population percentage growth than Dublin, and this percentage means their growth is nominally far bigger. On top of that, at the last census, 36 percent of Kildare people and 39 percent of Meath people left their own county, but just 19 percent of Dublin people left home. It goes on as if you go back to the 2011 census, the counties with the highest percentage of residents from outside them are those bordering Dublin with almost half of Meath's Irish population (47.6 percent) from another county, slightly higher than Kildare's 45.3 percent. Now add in the GAA's money differential.

So bad is it that Dublin have lost one game of eastern football in 14 seasons, and none since 2010. The last five finals have been won by an average of 12 points and the desperation to pretend all is well saw Kildare told to hold their heads high and slapped on the back for only losing by nine last year. Again, imagine that situation being the case just a generation ago. It's farcical.

However, if that's past and present, it's scary to think what's next. The lazy argument is that no one complained when Kerry and Kilkenny dominated, but they did so by means replicable elsewhere.

With Dublin though, how can you replicate demographics and, by extension, sponsorship?

Using playing numbers and population, just 2.91 percent of those in Dublin are lining out versus 8.6 percent in the rest of Leinster. The aim is to grow Dublin but if they were to reach parity with those around them for instance, that would be an extra 76,533 players or two-and-a-half times more than are already playing in Kildare and Meath combined. But as one grows the other falls away and the FAI and IRFU have seen this. So why would anyone want to send their kids to play a sport where the governing body discriminates against you based purely on where you are from? If you can offer a thirsty man a drink, he's more likely to come around to your thinking and bidding.

Secondly, that brings us to funding, and there's no way the GAA can ever make amends.

By now the figures are well known and if not so startling they'd be tiresome. Between 2005 and 2009, a total of €5m was made available to Dublin via the taxpayer for games development projects. The GAA alongside this dumped loads of cash into the capital to the point that between 2010 and 2014, per registered player, Kildare and Meath averaged €20 per head while Dublin were gladly accepting €274.70.

That's before the €1m or so a year their main sponsor and long list of major companies they have as partners were handing over. No team in history has ever received such disproportionate funding, and it's a zero coincidence that Dublin teams in hurling and football, men's and women's, underage and senior, club and county, are further ahead than ever.

What happens next is the same nationwide as Mayo will go bankrupt for daring to keep pace and then what? But for the GAA, by spoiling Dublin, even they are a problem. The attendance for their win against Wicklow was less than 12,000 and, being generous, we'll say 11,000 of those were from Dublin.

So, as a proportion of those that live there (we know not all are from Dublin and there are other sports, but that's the same everywhere else too), it would be the equivalent of Carlow bringing 450 to their opener. As champions. With one of the great teams. In a match, they were guaranteed to win. In a venue that's 45 minutes away served by public transport almost hourly. You can talk about the others in the province being sick, but that doesn't scream health either.

Frankly, it's boring so why would you waste your free time. And that takes us back to a seminal moment in the destruction of it all. Former Dublin chairman John Bailey in 2002 wandered into the office of Minister for Sport John O'Donoghue with a revolutionary view for the future that would have catastrophic effects.

"He didn't exactly receive me with open arms," he has previously told me. "A Kerry man so he wouldn't be biased, he'd be blinkered instead." Crucially, he wasn't just reliant on Kerry men as by then Bertie Ahern had climbed to the top. As Seán Kelly said of the overhaul, "When it came to Bailey's plan, Ahern's door was open without the need to even knock."

"The structures and coaching were a weakness," continued Bailey. "We went to the Taoiseach – he always helped us in any way he could – and said we need €2m to pay 100 coaches but I told him I'd give him it back. He looked puzzled. 'How will you do that?'" Bailey proceeded to explain that he'd take people on the dole, pay them €45,000, the government would get 20 percent back in tax, and 22 percent PRSI between employer and employee. "That was it. It subsidised all these coaches."

That was the beginning of the end as in their time of need the GAA didn't turn their back on Dublin, rather welcomed them with open arms. Now that everyone else is in far greater need, they don't want to know.

[donelli]

Genrally am ok with prices into games.
However this year the Ulster GAA put them ticket prices up a few quid, which i thought was uncalled for. Its the fact the higher frequency of the games is putting a bigger expense on match goers in a smaller period. For example, if Donegal get to the final they will gave played a game every fortnight, 4 games in 7 weekends. That is a lot of expense in a shorter time than previous championships which took place over 10 weeks.
It does make a big difference.

With the round robin quarter finals coming up too, there will be added expense. If a team is in the qualifiers from round 2, it'll be 6 games out of 7 weekends that matches will be played before any semi final is played. Havnt seen the prices yet to the qualifiers but the financial cost before tickets to go to all them games will be quite significant.
Would rather hear pundits argue for this instead of the tired rte v sky subscription debate. Look after those who take the effort in paying into games before couch fans.

[blewuporstuffed]

Genrally am ok with prices into games.
However this year the Ulster GAA put them ticket prices up a few quid, which i thought was uncalled for. Its the fact the higher frequency of the games is putting a bigger expense on match goers in a smaller period. For example, if Donegal get to the final they will gave played a game every fortnight, 4 games in 7 weekends. That is a lot of expense in a shorter time than previous championships which took place over 10 weeks.
It does make a big difference.

With the round robin quarter finals coming up too, there will be added expense. If a team is in the qualifiers from round 2, it'll be 6 games out of 7 weekends that matches will be played before any semi final is played. Havnt seen the prices yet to the qualifiers but the financial cost before tickets to go to all them games will be quite significant.
Would rather hear pundits argue for this instead of the tired rte v sky subscription debate. Look after those who take the effort in paying into games before couch fans.

That would involve a bit of thought about the game and the issues surrounding the GAA, rather than trotting out the same oul BS.
Joe & pat get free into games, so i wont affect them.

[armaghniac]

Kildare are the greatest underachievers in the GAA over a long period of time. While they are crap now, Meath have been top class at some periods.

The only thing Kildare have got to do with fallen attendances is that their supporters see financial doping for what it is and that there is no level playing field. Meath supporters as well. Stick to your shit Ulster championship, where Armagh haven't even reached a final in 10 years and waste money on McGeeny. Crowds in Ulster are down as well but let's just pretend everything is fine in the world outside Leinster.

My point was simple enough, over the last 80 years Meath have had several periods where their success reflected their population, Kildare has not. There is a longe term pattern here,  I largely agree with you on the aggravated issues in the current decade and I think the GAA need to seriously look at things in the Dublin commuter belt and in Derry and Belfast.

[Dinny Breen]

Kildare are the greatest underachievers in the GAA over a long period of time. While they are crap now, Meath have been top class at some periods.

The only thing Kildare have got to do with fallen attendances is that their supporters see financial doping for what it is and that there is no level playing field. Meath supporters as well. Stick to your shit Ulster championship, where Armagh haven't even reached a final in 10 years and waste money on McGeeny. Crowds in Ulster are down as well but let's just pretend everything is fine in the world outside Leinster.

My point was simple enough, over the last 80 years Meath have had several periods where their success reflected their population, Kildare has not. There is a longe term pattern here,  I largely agree with you on the aggravated issues in the current decade and I think the GAA need to seriously look at things in the Dublin commuter belt and in Derry and Belfast.

I don't disagree to a point but Kildare didn't always have such a large population, it only boomed since the 90s, the population of Kildare in 1930s to the 70s was less that 60K. The biggest sport in Kildare is horse-racing, it's an actual industry in Kildare employing 1000s full and part-time staff so culturally we are not that focused on GAA.

Anyway socioeconomic conditions will always be a factor it's an organic factor that is swayed heavily in favour of counties with large populations. However an organisation favouring the county with the most socio-economic factors with financial doping results in the current Leinster Championship. The GAA thought they needed Dublin's supporters to finance grass-roots, it has backfired spectacularly. If Leinster had Dublin, Kildare, Meath, and say Offaly and Westmeath at a comparable level you would replicate the Munster Hurling Championship, massive crowds and a proper Leinster Championship, that should have been the vision. That should have been the socialist vision, not the all are equal but some are more equal than others.

[Jinxy]

In the 1997 Leinster championship, Meath beat Dublin in the quarter-final, took 3 games to beat Kildare in the semi-final and lost to Offaly in the final.
In the 1998 Leinster championship, Kildare beat Dublin in the quarter-final, Meath beat Offaly in the quarter-final and Kildare beat Meath in the final.
Then, in the following years Westmeath and Laois broke through to win titles.
From the mid-nineties to the mid-noughties, the Leinster championship was a thing of beauty.
Will we ever see anything like that again?

[AZOffaly]

In the 1997 Leinster championship, Meath beat Dublin in the quarter-final, took 3 games to beat Kildare in the semi-final and lost to Offaly in the final.
In the 1998 Leinster championship, Kildare beat Dublin in the quarter-final, Meath beat Offaly in the quarter-final and Kildare beat Meath in the final.
Then, in the following years Westmeath and Laois broke through to win titles.
From the mid-nineties to the mid-noughties, the Leinster championship was a thing of beauty.
Will we ever see anything like that again?

I wonder what changed?

[mup]

Excellence or financial doping. People are too dumb to see the co-relation. The GAA have destroyed the Leinster Championship, people have voted with their feet.

Or too bitter to see the excellence. The brilliance. The determination. The never-say-die attitude.

Did financial doping turn Dean Rock from a mediocre free taker into one of the best and most reliable?

Dublin have turned Leinster into a procession by being so damned good.
Kildare and Meath have helped by being so incompetent.

Remember, Dublin were dominating Leinster long before we were winning All Irelands. It used to be said Leinster was a huge disadvantage to us, because having no competition meant the first time we came up against a decent team, we inevitably lost. Even though it was in Croke Park.   

But now we're paying Jonny Cooper and Brian Fenton and Ciaran Kilkenny so much to be so brilliant, we can beat teams outside Leinster now also. Did you ever see Philly McMahon, our corner back, kicking points from 40 yards? That's the money you know! 

I listened to Kildare radio in the car for the Carlow match, and the commentators were raging with the stupid fouls, stupid decisions and lack of heart shown by the kildare lads. If only you had money to fix those things. (They were annoyed with the Carlow coach constantly running onto the pitch too, but I don't think money would help that).

Ha! You just proved the point. Technical analysis doesn't come cheap. Your obsession with Kildare is not healthy. You defer to them every time, they are irrelevant as are Meath. Deflection, deflection.

Btw Dublin weren't dominating Leinster in the early 00s. I wonder when did the GAA started financial doping them? Would Offaly hurling be in such disrepair if they had a fraction a Dublin's GAA funding? Cause and affect.

My obsession with Kildare!! That's good, giving all the whinging you do against the Dubs!

We trounced Kildare every year in the 70s and 80s. Then Kildare always had some top class players, but they were generally disorganised and easily rattled. Soft underbelly. Then you got a good manager, proper organisation, the players got belief to go along with their ability. I remember we played you off the park one day to lead by 6 points at HT, and you didnt even play brilliantly in the second half, but you weren't going to be beaten. You just had the upper hand. Slightly better players, much better attitude.

Now we beat Kildare easy again, for the exact same reason we did in the 70s and 80s. We have better players. We have much better work rate. You've a soft under belly. But you've some lovely underage teams last few years and more coming, so you should contend again - if you can get a manager in the same league as Jim Gavin.

Dublin have passed Offaly out at hurling, mainly I would suggest because of numbers and organisation. I wonder what the Dubs v Offaly record is like at minor and U21 the last 10 years? I haven't looked it up, but I bet it's hugely in Dublin's favour. We've a load more young lads and we've a load more volunteer coaches in each club and in the development squads.

There is no doubt there is Offaly men teaching underage hurling to young lads in Kilmacud, Cuala and Ballyboden, among others, and they're not getting paid a cent! Demographics. We need Offaly people to stay in Offaly. So we need jobs everywhere, not just in Dublin.

(Although it is interesting that in hurling the Dubs had passed out Wexford, but the arrivals of Ger Cunningham and Davy Fitz doubly handedly swung the pendulum back to Wexford. But Gilroy seems to have recovered some of that ground, although not enough for this year.)

Kildare man Charlie McCreevy had the right plan to move most of the civil servants out of Dublin, which would have been a great first step. It was by no means a perfect plan, but it was miles better than doing nothing.

Pure ostrich stuff here.

[Farrandeelin]

In the 1997 Leinster championship, Meath beat Dublin in the quarter-final, took 3 games to beat Kildare in the semi-final and lost to Offaly in the final.
In the 1998 Leinster championship, Kildare beat Dublin in the quarter-final, Meath beat Offaly in the quarter-final and Kildare beat Meath in the final.
Then, in the following years Westmeath and Laois broke through to win titles.
From the mid-nineties to the mid-noughties, the Leinster championship was a thing of beauty.
Will we ever see anything like that again?

Of course. Once this once in a generation Dublin team sink into the chasing pack once again.....

[mup]

Kildare are the greatest underachievers in the GAA over a long period of time. While they are crap now, Meath have been top class at some periods.

Kildare 4 AI's and 13 Provincial Titles
Armagh 1 AI and 14 Provincial Titles

After all the Crossmaglen success you reckon you should have won more.

And you call Kildare underachievers?

[Rossfan]

Anyway did anyone find out what was the attendance in Parnell Park last Sunday?

[mup]

In the 1997 Leinster championship, Meath beat Dublin in the quarter-final, took 3 games to beat Kildare in the semi-final and lost to Offaly in the final.
In the 1998 Leinster championship, Kildare beat Dublin in the quarter-final, Meath beat Offaly in the quarter-final and Kildare beat Meath in the final.
Then, in the following years Westmeath and Laois broke through to win titles.
From the mid-nineties to the mid-noughties, the Leinster championship was a thing of beauty.
Will we ever see anything like that again?

Seriously I don't think we will. It has gone too far. Young lads will turn to other sports to try and achieve some success. Football is seen as a lost cause in the rest of Leinster. There is no point in playing it.