This isn't looking good lads. Pictures on the BBC website show the whole 27 floor residential tower block ablaze.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40269625
Just looking at some of the footage, it doesn't look good at all. Horrifying.
Shocking lads, absolutely shocking
Looks like it was one big giant flammable building. Shocking - I am sure the fatalities will be massive. Hope I'm wrong.
Residents were complaining about fire safety standards in the building in the recent past so for them to be proved correct......
People at work saying it was recently re-furbed to the tune of £10 million. Just awful.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on June 14, 2017, 08:48:13 AM
People at work saying it was recently re-furbed to the tune of £10 million. Just awful.
Reports that some residents were told to stay put and not evacuate the building, utter chaos. You gotta fear for the death toll in that inferno.
https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/ (https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/)
Nov.20 2016
KCTMO – Playing with fire!
"It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders. We believe that the KCTMO are an evil, unprincipled, mini-mafia who have no business to be charged with the responsibility of looking after the every day management of large scale social housing estates and that their sordid collusion with the RBKC Council is a recipe for a future major disaster."
Quote from: johnneycool on June 14, 2017, 09:23:52 AM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on June 14, 2017, 08:48:13 AM
People at work saying it was recently re-furbed to the tune of £10 million. Just awful.
Reports that some residents were told to stay put and not evacuate the building, utter chaos. You gotta fear for the death toll in that inferno.
Young lad being interviewed said that those who called 999 were told to stay in their apartment until someone came to rescue them, advice that probably contributed to the tragedy.
No sprinklers or the like I'm guessing? Smoke alarms? Evacuation plan?
Residents were told to close their doors as they were Fire Doors and they would hold out until the fire brigade would get there. No word about what they should do when the clading outside starts burning.
Those images are horrifying.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40272984
God love them!!
Someone caught a baby thrown from the 9th or 10th floor. Unimagineable.
Quote from: Hound on June 14, 2017, 11:28:12 AM
Someone caught a baby thrown from the 9th or 10th floor. Unimagineable.
Wow! Where you read that Hound?
Quote from: Walter Cronc on June 14, 2017, 11:42:17 AM
Quote from: Hound on June 14, 2017, 11:28:12 AM
Someone caught a baby thrown from the 9th or 10th floor. Unimagineable.
Wow! Where you read that Hound?
On the bbc link you put up
Jesus I didnt even read that!
Crazy. What a hero catching the baby.
Quote from: Hound on June 14, 2017, 11:28:12 AM
Someone caught a baby thrown from the 9th or 10th floor. Unimagineable.
What state must that poor person been in to throw their child to safety from the 10th floor?
The new decorative cladding on the outside of the building seems to have caused the fire to spread on the outside of what is a concrete building.
Apparently there was one door in and out and no external fire escape.
Firefighters yet again showed incredible bravery in going into the building in long range breathing appartus to fight the fire and rescue people. Especially in a building that was showing signs of structural collapse.
Are the building codes in England very lenient?
Quote from: J70 on June 14, 2017, 02:00:40 PM
Are the building codes in England very lenient?
Its pretty evident across London and other major cities that high rise tower blocks are getting spruced up (for want of a better word) with a variety of cladding materials. You would assume these would have to pass strict building codes.
Buildings of that era in the UK tend to be concrete frame as opposed to steel frame in the US.
A lot of codes were made even more robust following the IRA bombing campaign in 80s & 90s.
The building doesn't seem in danger of collapse. There are two issues here, gas caused it and the cladding seems to have spread it. No doubt lessons will be learned, but too late for these poor people.
Quote from: StGallsGAA on June 14, 2017, 10:12:10 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on June 14, 2017, 09:23:52 AM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on June 14, 2017, 08:48:13 AM
People at work saying it was recently re-furbed to the tune of £10 million. Just awful.
Reports that some residents were told to stay put and not evacuate the building, utter chaos. You gotta fear for the death toll in that inferno.
Young lad being interviewed said that those who called 999 were told to stay in their apartment until someone came to rescue them, advice that probably contributed to the tragedy.
The same "bad" advice that was given to a lot of the people who died on the Piper Alpha Oil platform disaster in 1988 ... They were told to stay at their muster points ... the vast majority of those who did this died ..
10 million refurb and no proper fire alarm system hows that work; can hardly get a minor thing through building control without hassle so how has a fire alarm system been overlooked to not been upgrade! Also what architect/ PM selected the cladding system and did it get building control approval@ Cladding systems are supposed to have fire ratings just encase of this sort of thing! The single stairwell system down the core of the building is the main flaw on building with this age! And likely no proper fire plan in place!
Jesus, awful stuff
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on June 14, 2017, 04:06:46 PM
10 million refurb and no proper fire alarm system hows that work; can hardly get a minor thing through building control without hassle so how has a fire alarm system been overlooked to not been upgrade! Also what architect/ PM selected the cladding system and did it get building control approval@ Cladding systems are supposed to have fire ratings just encase of this sort of thing! The single stairwell system down the core of the building is the main flaw on building with this age! And likely no proper fire plan in place!
Firefighters expected the building to conform to building regs and told people to stay in their apartments and block door to keep out smoke while they tackled the fire but it got to the outside and burnt up through the cladding and insulation that obviously didn't have the 1 hour fire rating that is required.
A similar tower block fire recently in London was put out because it was contained in one apartment by the building materials.
Some lads will be spending time at Her Majesty's pleasure.
Maybe, but will they be the guilty ones?
Posted elsewhere, planning permission for refurbishment
https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/idoxWAM/doc/Other-952368.pdf?extension=.pdf&id=952368&location=VOLUME2&contentType=application/pdf&pageCount=1
The plan called for Celotex instead of mineral wool (which doesn't burn) because it was 10% more efficient at heat insulation.
That celotex stuff does not meet the higher fire safety standards required for schools, hospitals, old folk homes.
Mineral wool is a fire retardant and the hard pressed sheets are the most practical to use externally on concrete building.
Though I live in a wooden house, I'm concerned that should the house go on fire, the insulation will not add to the inferno :)
Word tonight is that the external cladding was made from polyethylene!
How anyone decided by use such a material on this scale on a building is incredible. When it caught fire it wrapped the building in flames.
Awful, just awful. Imagine the deaths these people had.
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on June 14, 2017, 11:08:13 PM
Word tonight is that the external cladding was made from polyethylene!
How anyone decided by use such a material on this scale on a building is incredible. When it caught fire it wrapped the building in flames.
Last night, Newsnight was saying polyethylene cladding but this morning the BBC is blaming the polyurethane insulation not smouldering but burning behind the cladding.
Either way this is a major tragedy for some of London's poorest, worse news is yet to come.
The sprucing up of the flats was nothing to do with the flats themselves it was to take the bad look from the balcony of the yuppy flats build in the surrounding area.
The same as the doing up of the tower block in the new lodge.
I had heard the cladding was fire retardant on the outside but not the inside meaning it spread up the inside on it melting anything in its way.
There is an element of class war coming out of this where the locals are saying it was a purely cosmetic upgrade and the owners saying it was also to provide additional insulation.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 15, 2017, 11:25:57 AM
There is an element of class war coming out of this where the locals are saying it was a purely cosmetic upgrade and the owners saying it was also to provide additional insulation.
It is certainly the former! It appeases the chai latte drinkers. Happening all over Zone 2 & 3 in London as former inner city areas gentrify.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 15, 2017, 11:25:57 AM
There is an element of class war coming out of this where the locals are saying it was a purely cosmetic upgrade and the owners saying it was also to provide additional insulation.
Where you see class war I see normal people and asshat corporations.
Still doesnt explain what happened the stairwell which is a protected zone! This area should not have filled with smoke unless the recent internal work breached the compartmentation of this area, likely through pipework not properly sealed somewhere on the stairwell
There is clearly a class war going on as automation is becoming more widespread to increase profits for the already mega rich, meanwhile working class people become poorer depending on exploitative employers offering poor terms and conditions, zero hours contracts etc or reducing benefits simply to survive. Public sector workers also squeezed to a point where they are merely surviving rather than living. The world is ripe for revolution but the fight has been beaten out of people. There is a caste system in all bit name
All the while children in the north live in among the poorest conditions in western Europe.
But sure flegs and marches are more important!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-40278243
Quote from: Walter Cronc on June 15, 2017, 11:57:02 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 15, 2017, 11:25:57 AM
There is an element of class war coming out of this where the locals are saying it was a purely cosmetic upgrade and the owners saying it was also to provide additional insulation.
It is certainly the former! It appeases the chai latte drinkers. Happening all over Zone 2 & 3 in London as former inner city areas gentrify.
What a load of bollocks. Even if it was purely to make it look nicer how would that make it a class issue?
Quote from: haranguerer on June 15, 2017, 12:20:39 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on June 15, 2017, 11:57:02 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 15, 2017, 11:25:57 AM
There is an element of class war coming out of this where the locals are saying it was a purely cosmetic upgrade and the owners saying it was also to provide additional insulation.
It is certainly the former! It appeases the chai latte drinkers. Happening all over Zone 2 & 3 in London as former inner city areas gentrify.
What a load of bollocks. Even if it was purely to make it look nicer how would that make it a class issue?
No adequate fire safety provisions - alarms/sprinklers/stairwells. Yeah that happens in wealthy developments.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on June 15, 2017, 12:31:38 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on June 15, 2017, 12:20:39 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on June 15, 2017, 11:57:02 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 15, 2017, 11:25:57 AM
There is an element of class war coming out of this where the locals are saying it was a purely cosmetic upgrade and the owners saying it was also to provide additional insulation.
It is certainly the former! It appeases the chai latte drinkers. Happening all over Zone 2 & 3 in London as former inner city areas gentrify.
What a load of bollocks. Even if it was purely to make it look nicer how would that make it a class issue?
No adequate fire safety provisions - alarms/sprinklers/stairwells. Yeah that happens in wealthy developments.
All the fire protection and wealth didnt stop the twin towers not only going on fire but falling down
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 15, 2017, 12:37:57 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on June 15, 2017, 12:31:38 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on June 15, 2017, 12:20:39 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on June 15, 2017, 11:57:02 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 15, 2017, 11:25:57 AM
There is an element of class war coming out of this where the locals are saying it was a purely cosmetic upgrade and the owners saying it was also to provide additional insulation.
It is certainly the former! It appeases the chai latte drinkers. Happening all over Zone 2 & 3 in London as former inner city areas gentrify.
What a load of bollocks. Even if it was purely to make it look nicer how would that make it a class issue?
No adequate fire safety provisions - alarms/sprinklers/stairwells. Yeah that happens in wealthy developments.
All the fire protection and wealth didnt stop the twin towers not only going on fire but falling down
Not comparable MR2.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on June 15, 2017, 12:11:03 PM
Still doesnt explain what happened the stairwell which is a protected zone! This area should not have filled with smoke unless the recent internal work breached the compartmentation of this area, likely through pipework not properly sealed somewhere on the stairwell
Some contractor said yesterday that there was work being done on the gas supply and he noticed that fire breaks were not reinstated after the pipework being completed. Compartmentalisation is the very reason the people are told to stay in their flats. It's all well and good if the fire is both internal and the compartments aren't breached. Regardless of compartmentalisation, the major issue was the cladding on fire on the outside.
QuoteWhat a load of bollocks. Even if it was purely to make it look nicer how would that make it a class issue?
https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10154939461291939/ (https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10154939461291939/)
Seems pretty clear to me
The material used to clad the tower block is used worldwide and is mass produced by the Shanghai Huayuan Composite Materials Ltd under the trade name of Alucobest Aluminum Composite Panel (ACP).
ACP is made up of two layers of aluminum skin on the top and bottom, and one layer of anti-toxic polyethylene material in the core. It is highly flammable and only suitable on low rise buildings as a cladding material
In 2014, thirteen floors of a Melbourne building went up in flames within 15 minutes after the cladding was set alight by a lit cigarette that came into contact with the core. The cheap cladding covering the building didn't meet Australian standards, and it's been used on thousands of buildings in Australia.
After the fire, the material was tested and was found to be highly flammable taking only 55 seconds to flame.
The use of the cladding has nothing to do with a class war and just cost cutting by builders of thousands high rise buildings around the world where it is a cheap way to decorate the outer surface of concrete towers.
Quote from: Declan on June 15, 2017, 02:09:59 PM
QuoteWhat a load of bollocks. Even if it was purely to make it look nicer how would that make it a class issue?
https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10154939461291939/ (https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10154939461291939/)
Seems pretty clear to me
Cos some guy said so? Dead on.
Quote from: haranguerer on June 15, 2017, 02:37:04 PM
Quote from: Declan on June 15, 2017, 02:09:59 PM
QuoteWhat a load of bollocks. Even if it was purely to make it look nicer how would that make it a class issue?
https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10154939461291939/ (https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10154939461291939/)
Seems pretty clear to me
Cos some guy said so? Dead on.
The use of inefficient and cheap materials has everything to do with cuts to the public purse and austerity.
The fact that evacuation and fire mitigation concerns were continually raised and not dealt with in London's wealthiest borough says it all.
One man stated if he hadnt been able to use his key fob loads of people wouldnt have got out.
The rubbish that is being said here is that they spent 10m on a refurb so that rich people would have a nice view. That is bollocks.
Quote from: haranguerer on June 15, 2017, 03:09:16 PM
The rubbish that is being said here is that they spent 10m on a refurb so that rich people would have a nice view. That is bollocks.
It's an opinion. There is no right or wrong.
QuoteThe rubbish that is being said here is that they spent 10m on a refurb so that rich people would have a nice view. That is bollocks.
It's an opinion. There is no right or wrong.
Correct its the opinion of people from the tower block who lived there and tried to get answers from the management company without success so in my mind it carrys more weight than someone looking in from abroad .
The refurbishment isn't the problem, nor the desire for insulation. The problem is that the standards allow this. One proper standard would save all of the towers. I'll bet you too that someplace, Germany, Canada, Sweden... has a proper standard that you could just copy.
Quote from: Declan on June 15, 2017, 03:51:21 PM
QuoteThe rubbish that is being said here is that they spent 10m on a refurb so that rich people would have a nice view. That is bollocks.
It's an opinion. There is no right or wrong.
Correct its the opinion of people from the tower block who lived there and tried to get answers from the management company without success so in my mind it carrys more weight than someone looking in from abroad .
Of course an opinion can be wrong ffs. Spinning some shite about this being a class issue and improvements just for the benefits of the neighbours view does no one any favours, especially since it detracts from the real issue - the safety failings. It was hardly the rich neighbours fault.
Quote from: haranguerer on June 15, 2017, 04:30:56 PM
Quote from: Declan on June 15, 2017, 03:51:21 PM
QuoteThe rubbish that is being said here is that they spent 10m on a refurb so that rich people would have a nice view. That is bollocks.
It's an opinion. There is no right or wrong.
Correct its the opinion of people from the tower block who lived there and tried to get answers from the management company without success so in my mind it carrys more weight than someone looking in from abroad .
Of course an opinion can be wrong ffs. Spinning some shite about this being a class issue and improvements just for the benefits of the neighbours view does no one any favours, especially since it detracts from the real issue - the safety failings. It was hardly the rich neighbours fault.
Firstly stop being so angry on the matter. Chill. Secondly who stated it was the rich neighbours fault?
These shortcuts and mishaps are a direct result of continuous austerity from a government that supports the top % in society.
Quote from: haranguerer on June 15, 2017, 04:30:56 PM
Quote from: Declan on June 15, 2017, 03:51:21 PM
QuoteThe rubbish that is being said here is that they spent 10m on a refurb so that rich people would have a nice view. That is bollocks.
It's an opinion. There is no right or wrong.
Correct its the opinion of people from the tower block who lived there and tried to get answers from the management company without success so in my mind it carrys more weight than someone looking in from abroad .
Of course an opinion can be wrong ffs. Spinning some shite about this being a class issue and improvements just for the benefits of the neighbours view does no one any favours, especially since it detracts from the real issue - the safety failings. It was hardly the rich neighbours fault.
Think in fairness the news had a copy of the planning app and one of the points was improving the aesthetic (sp?) nature of the building
Quote from: armaghniac on June 15, 2017, 04:21:41 PM
The refurbishment isn't the problem, nor the desire for insulation. The problem is that the standards allow this. One proper standard would save all of the towers. I'll bet you too that someplace, Germany, Canada, Sweden... has a proper standard that you could just copy.
Australian discovered in 2014 that their regulations had not kept up with new materials and it has acres of the same cladding all over multi storey buildings.
As occurs the product came from China and was not covered by existing building regs until something terrible happens. This occurred in Melbourne in 2014 when a block was swathed in fire in 15 minutes from a cigarette butt lighting the cladding. It was thrown on concrete towers to hide the concrete which was supposed to be the real fire block. In many new buildings it is far cheaper to buy and put on as a rain shied for insulation put on the outside of concrete towers. Still being used across this board as we speak. Nothing to do with exploiting the poor, just builders and their suppliers ripping off their clients with cheap, fast construction.
This fire will amend the building regs regarding cladding but too late for the poor of Kensington.
It
Does anyone know how many people escaped? and how many people are actually missing/feared dead? It seems like the media are downplaying the death toll but when you do the maths it doesn't look good :(
Quote from: clarshack on June 15, 2017, 10:36:04 PM
Does anyone know how many people escaped? and how many people are actually missing/feared dead? It seems like the media are downplaying the death toll but when you do the maths it doesn't look good :(
That f**king shite hawk Lily Allen was on channel 4 new earlier saying she knew for a fact there were 150 dead and there was a big cover up! Many, many people will be charcoal at this stage so yes they might know how many people are missing, but like the Manchester bomb, the have a process to go through for a coroner to declare them officially dead. That could take months. They'll be able to work things out with people in their flats but I would guess many victims dead on the stairwells.
Quote from: clarshack on June 15, 2017, 10:36:04 PM
Does anyone know how many people escaped? and how many people are actually missing/feared dead? It seems like the media are downplaying the death toll but when you do the maths it doesn't look good :(
They're saying at least a 100. Sun front page deflecting attention away from May towards London mayor.
Quote from: mrdeeds on June 15, 2017, 11:08:47 PM
Quote from: clarshack on June 15, 2017, 10:36:04 PM
Does anyone know how many people escaped? and how many people are actually missing/feared dead? It seems like the media are downplaying the death toll but when you do the maths it doesn't look good :(
They're saying at least a 100. Sun front page deflecting attention away fron May towards London mayor.
Even Channel 4 news are pointing out the problem stated with Labour relaxing the fire regulations and all parties not regularly upgrading building regs to take account of new building methods and new materials.
Khan should be a focus for everyone, he is the elected leader for London and has to take the anger coming his way whether he is responsible or not. He appears to revel in the position as Mayor and needs to accept that central government is a major step back from running London and he is now in the firing line.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 15, 2017, 10:57:26 PM
Quote from: clarshack on June 15, 2017, 10:36:04 PM
Does anyone know how many people escaped? and how many people are actually missing/feared dead? It seems like the media are downplaying the death toll but when you do the maths it doesn't look good :(
That f**king shite hawk Lily Allen was on channel 4 new earlier saying she knew for a fact there were 150 dead and there was a big cover up! Many, many people will be charcoal at this stage so yes they might know how many people are missing, but like the Manchester bomb, the have a process to go through for a coroner to declare them officially dead. That could take months. They'll be able to work things out with people in their flats but I would guess many victims dead on the stairwells.
Didnt they say there was 600 or something in the flats? We are hearing plenty of stories of people escaping from the 9, 10 floors but i havent heard too many from higher up, and there was 24 floors.... it could be real bad.
I would not like to be part of that recovery operation.... terrible tragedy
Yeah I agree regarding the pop stars helping out. Fair play but why not raise these issues months ago. John Snow mentioned she was well off. She claimed she wasn't growing up....was her old man not a fairly successful actor. Hardly on the breadline.
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on June 15, 2017, 11:23:16 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on June 15, 2017, 11:08:47 PM
Quote from: clarshack on June 15, 2017, 10:36:04 PM
Does anyone know how many people escaped? and how many people are actually missing/feared dead? It seems like the media are downplaying the death toll but when you do the maths it doesn't look good :(
They're saying at least a 100. Sun front page deflecting attention away fron May towards London mayor.
Even Channel 4 news are pointing out the problem stated with Labour relaxing the fire regulations and all parties not regularly upgrading building regs to take account of new building methods and new materials.
Khan should be a focus for everyone, he is the elected leader for London and has to take the anger coming his way whether he is responsible or not. He appears to revel in the position as Mayor and needs to accept that central government is a major step back from running London and he is now in the firing line.
Isn't the London mayor's role largely ceremonial?
Considering the timing of the fire, the 20 floor tower block inferno, the lack of alarms, bad advice, it's astonishing that more than 100 are not missing and that so many made an escape by their own devices or with help from the resolute fire brigade personnel.
Quote from: Main Street on June 16, 2017, 08:26:02 AM
Isn't the London mayor's role largely ceremonial?
Considering the timing of the fire, the 20 floor tower block inferno, the lack of alarms, bad advice, it's astonishing that more than 100 are not missing and that so many made an escape by their own devices or with help from the resolute fire brigade personnel.
Far from it, you are maybe thinking of the Lord Mayor. In UK the mayor of a large city has full control of all funding and and has responsibility for fire, police, etc. Khan has authority over the Met Police, etc. His predecessors had millions to spend on projects, e.g. Boris had a vanity project set up to construct a garden bridge over the Thames cost £30m+ which Khan has stopped. Khan is responsible for London transport and all such infrastructure projects, e.g. he is putting wifi into the Tube system, such a priority. Ultimately, the mayor works within national guidelines but he would have had responsibility for building control matters and the provision of social housing. In London there is the elected mayor and assembly with control of virtually all London matters with a fund of many millions.
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on June 16, 2017, 09:18:56 AM
Quote from: Main Street on June 16, 2017, 08:26:02 AM
Isn't the London mayor's role largely ceremonial?
Considering the timing of the fire, the 20 floor tower block inferno, the lack of alarms, bad advice, it's astonishing that more than 100 are not missing and that so many made an escape by their own devices or with help from the resolute fire brigade personnel.
Far from it, you are maybe thinking of the Lord Mayor. In UK the mayor of a large city has full control of all funding and and has responsibility for fire, police, etc. Khan has authority over the Met Police, etc. His predecessors had millions to spend on projects, e.g. Boris had a vanity project set up to construct a garden bridge over the Thames cost £30m+ which Khan has stopped. Khan is responsible for London transport and all such infrastructure projects, e.g. he is putting wifi into the Tube system, such a priority. Ultimately, the mayor works within national guidelines but he would have had responsibility for building control matters and the provision of social housing. In London there is the elected mayor and assembly with control of virtually all London matters with a fund of many millions.
While not absolving him of all blame shouldn't it be the position of Mayor of London thats under scrutiny not a guy that's in the job 13 months..
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on June 16, 2017, 09:18:56 AM
Quote from: Main Street on June 16, 2017, 08:26:02 AM
Isn't the London mayor's role largely ceremonial?
Considering the timing of the fire, the 20 floor tower block inferno, the lack of alarms, bad advice, it's astonishing that more than 100 are not missing and that so many made an escape by their own devices or with help from the resolute fire brigade personnel.
Far from it, you are maybe thinking of the Lord Mayor. In UK the mayor of a large city has full control of all funding and and has responsibility for fire, police, etc. Khan has authority over the Met Police, etc. His predecessors had millions to spend on projects, e.g. Boris had a vanity project set up to construct a garden bridge over the Thames cost £30m+ which Khan has stopped. Khan is responsible for London transport and all such infrastructure projects, e.g. he is putting wifi into the Tube system, such a priority. Ultimately, the mayor works within national guidelines but he would have had responsibility for building control matters and the provision of social housing. In London there is the elected mayor and assembly with control of virtually all London matters with a fund of many millions.
The mayor of London has control of the police and fire brigade??? He is responsible for building control and the provision of social housing in in Kensington Borough Council???
I will be astonished if these are true, do you have any facts to back these assertions up, or sources.
Quote from: Boycey on June 16, 2017, 09:27:35 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on June 16, 2017, 09:18:56 AM
Quote from: Main Street on June 16, 2017, 08:26:02 AM
Isn't the London mayor's role largely ceremonial?
Considering the timing of the fire, the 20 floor tower block inferno, the lack of alarms, bad advice, it's astonishing that more than 100 are not missing and that so many made an escape by their own devices or with help from the resolute fire brigade personnel.
Far from it, you are maybe thinking of the Lord Mayor. In UK the mayor of a large city has full control of all funding and and has responsibility for fire, police, etc. Khan has authority over the Met Police, etc. His predecessors had millions to spend on projects, e.g. Boris had a vanity project set up to construct a garden bridge over the Thames cost £30m+ which Khan has stopped. Khan is responsible for London transport and all such infrastructure projects, e.g. he is putting wifi into the Tube system, such a priority. Ultimately, the mayor works within national guidelines but he would have had responsibility for building control matters and the provision of social housing. In London there is the elected mayor and assembly with control of virtually all London matters with a fund of many millions.
While not absolving him of all blame shouldn't it be the position of Mayor of London thats under scrutiny not a guy that's in the job 13 months..
That's the problem with a major job like that. In the eyes of the public when can you stop blaming the man/woman before you and begin to take responsibility for the present?
Khan thought he could walk in to that situation and be adored by the ordinary people, they were too ready for him and angry as you say at the post holder who sought to give platitudes while leaving the local council of Kensington to continue to do little for the poor in their midst. He should have had the situation assessed and arrived with some solutions, e.g. the Red Cross put out a tweet to ask the public to stop donating food and clothes and for someone to provide boxes and storage for the existing collection, if I could read that here should Khan not have taken even that simple message and arranged from his vast resources to have the collections boxed and stored for when required?
While the mayor has control over overall spending & infrastructure, development proposals are controlled within boroughs. Therefore the responsibility lies with the Royal Borough of K&C and what is contained within their 'core strategy'.
From the London Plan 2016. In 441 pages there is very little reference to fire safety.
The London Resilience Partnership maintains the London Risk Register232. New
development should incorporate fire safety solutions and represent best practice
in fire safety planning in both design and management. The London Fire and
Emergency Planning Authority (LFEPA) should be consulted early in the design
process to ensure major projects and venues have solutions to fire engineering
built-in.
Does refurbishment come under new development? I doubt it.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on June 16, 2017, 09:38:07 AM
While the mayor has control over overall spending & infrastructure, development proposals are controlled within boroughs. Therefore the responsibility lies with the Royal Borough of K&C and what is contained within their 'core strategy'.
From the London Plan 2016. In 441 pages there is very little reference to fire safety.
The London Resilience Partnership maintains the London Risk Register232. New
development should incorporate fire safety solutions and represent best practice
in fire safety planning in both design and management. The London Fire and
Emergency Planning Authority (LFEPA) should be consulted early in the design
process to ensure major projects and venues have solutions to fire engineering
built-in.
Does refurbishment come under new development? I doubt it.
No. All new developments above a certain height must have a sprinkler system but Grenfell tower was not considered a new development and the sprinkler system was optional. Council are trying to lay blamed for not spending the £200K required on a sprinkler system on the residents who were asked and didn't want further disruption given the refurbishment work.
More information on the panels, an extra £5K would have bought non-flammable panels. Those used are banned in US for use on tall buildings. Also banned in Australia since disaster in Melbourne in 2014.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-latest-london-cladding-banned-us-flammable-a7792711.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-latest-london-cladding-banned-us-flammable-a7792711.html)
Now believed that 76 are missing, along with the 17 confirmed dead!
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on June 16, 2017, 09:47:54 AM
More information on the panels, an extra £5K would have bought non-flammable panels. Those used are banned in US for use on tall buildings. Also banned in Australia since disaster in Melbourne in 2014.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-latest-london-cladding-banned-us-flammable-a7792711.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-latest-london-cladding-banned-us-flammable-a7792711.html)
I hope they have deep pockets and good insurance.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on June 16, 2017, 09:38:07 AM
While the mayor has control over overall spending & infrastructure, development proposals are controlled within boroughs. Therefore the responsibility lies with the Royal Borough of K&C and what is contained within their 'core strategy'.
The London mayor does not have control over the budget, according to this account,
https://fullfact.org/news/what-can-mayor-london-actually-do/ (https://fullfact.org/news/what-can-mayor-london-actually-do/)
"Limits to the Mayor's powers come through accountability checks set in place back when the GLA was created"The Mayor can negotiate with the government for funds, can set the budget, but that must be later approved by the London Assembly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Assembly
The London Assembly of 25 have the final authority and they have full control over these committees https://www.london.gov.uk/moderngov/mgListCommittees.aspx?bcr=1 (https://www.london.gov.uk/moderngov/mgListCommittees.aspx?bcr=1)
The London mayor's powers have been watered down considerably since the days when Red Ken got up "their" noses.
This will be landing on the door step of the architect who done this job.
I think it was Armaghniac who correctly said that the standards are at fault. If there is a legal requirement for a minimum standard of panel to ensure fire retardancy then it should have been in place. It appears that although the cladding appears to be a disaster, there is nothing illegal about their use. That's a massive oversight if that is the case.
Was chatting to one of the Facilities Managers in work this morning and he said that in some of these composite panels the insulation melts and when trapped in the bottom of the panel in liquid form it flashes over which may be why the building took off the way it did.
Whats pretty galling is how it appears there is a clear communication strategy for the government, police and various media sources on the number of deaths here.
To me it feels like the public are being drip fed the death toll as to minimise anger and outrage.
If someone is missing and unaccounted for at this stage then they are dead!
Perhaps social media will shed more light on the truth.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on June 16, 2017, 12:59:01 PM
Whats pretty galling is how it appears there is a clear communication strategy for the government, police and various media sources on the number of deaths here.
To me it feels like the public are being drip fed the death toll as to minimise anger and outrage.
If someone is missing and unaccounted for at this stage then they are dead!
Perhaps social media will shed more light on the truth.
Same in Manchester. People were deluded to think that Olivia Campbell etc. were not dead but they were reported missing until they were conformed as dead. The people confirmed as dead will have been identified. I think most people are intelligent enough to join the dots.
They're in a no-win situation. If they said someone was dead who later turned up there'd be hell to pay. Which would you rather?
Have they even released who is missing?
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/look-fire-rating-cladding-insulation-grenfell-tower-ian-abley?trk=v-feed&lipi=urn%3Ali%3Apage%3Ad_flagship3_feed%3BcpIJWAZupIgzP2kxtpIPaA%3D%3D
I don't think in this instance there's a concerted campaign to drip feed information on the dead to the media, I just think they really don't know, but you'd have to fear for the 76 missing people ever turning up with the severity of that fire and how quickly it caught hold.
At this stage missing = dead.
Here's a story of someone from the 15th.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40297466
He is the highest up survivor Ive heard about, appears to be a strong young man and it seems like a minor miracle that he got out and there are 9 floors of people above him.
A note on he media coverage in America. Its pretty low down the listing, for reference the recent terrorist attacks were the main news for days.
Heartbreaking stuff
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/have-whole-life-ahead-dont-want-die-final-call-italian-woman/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/have-whole-life-ahead-dont-want-die-final-call-italian-woman/)
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 16, 2017, 04:38:05 PM
Here's a story of someone from the 15th.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40297466
He is the highest up survivor Ive heard about, appears to be a strong young man and it seems like a minor miracle that he got out and there are 9 floors of people above him.
A note on he media coverage in America. Its pretty low down the listing, for reference the recent terrorist attacks were the main news for days.
Yep, the Scalise shootings just as this story was breaking that morning threw it off the front page pretty quickly.
Its strange it hasn't got more coverage though.
Part of what makes terrorist attacks in the west headline news in the west is that western people can put themselves in the shoes of the victims. Sort of "there but for the grace of God go I" type of response. Which might not necessarily be the case for the victims of the latest car bombing or air strike in Syria.
This apartment tower fire should really elicit the same type of response here too.
Quote from: Declan on June 16, 2017, 05:17:22 PM
Heartbreaking stuff
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/have-whole-life-ahead-dont-want-die-final-call-italian-woman/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/have-whole-life-ahead-dont-want-die-final-call-italian-woman/)
Reminds me of listening to the calls from inside the World Trade Center at the 9/11 museum.
Hard to listen to or imagine what they were going through.
The fact that the ordeal last so many hours too... I didn't really know that till now. The shelter-in-place procedures I guess.
The lack of a common fire alarm in the building is shocking. That the girl in that report and many other remained in the building until it was too late to escape is absolutely mind - boggling.
And that **** Teresa May can count herself lucky it wasn't 2 weeks ago.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 16, 2017, 07:08:06 PM
The lack of a common fire alarm in the building is shocking. That the girl in that report and many other remained in the building until it was too late to escape is absolutely mind - boggling.
If you were in a tower that was on fire and the fire brigade said stay in, would you stay or try and find a way out? Remember they said to the ones in the twin towers, stay there until it was too late!
It's madness that in some reports that they could have put the sprinkler system in place for 20grand! But to believe some other reports they mentioned the residents didn't want anymore upheaval
Quote from: J70 on June 16, 2017, 05:34:23 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 16, 2017, 04:38:05 PM
Here's a story of someone from the 15th.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40297466
He is the highest up survivor Ive heard about, appears to be a strong young man and it seems like a minor miracle that he got out and there are 9 floors of people above him.
A note on he media coverage in America. Its pretty low down the listing, for reference the recent terrorist attacks were the main news for days.
Yep, the Scalise shootings just as this story was breaking that morning threw it off the front page pretty quickly.
Its strange it hasn't got more coverage though.
Part of what makes terrorist attacks in the west headline news in the west is that western people can put themselves in the shoes of the victims. Sort of "there but for the grace of God go I" type of response. Which might not necessarily be the case for the victims of the latest car bombing or air strike in Syria.
This apartment tower fire should really elicit the same type of response here too.
This shite, corporations not looking after the best interests of people, is far more likely to effect people than a lad who's listened to a mad Iman is ever going to.
Of the last five months of horrible stories out of the UK this is by far the worst and most maddening.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 16, 2017, 07:27:56 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 16, 2017, 07:08:06 PM
The lack of a common fire alarm in the building is shocking. That the girl in that report and many other remained in the building until it was too late to escape is absolutely mind - boggling.
If you were in a tower that was on fire and the fire brigade said stay in, would you stay or try and find a way out? Remember they said to the ones in the twin towers, stay there until it was too late!
It's madness that in some reports that they could have put the sprinkler system in place for 20grand! But to believe some other reports they mentioned the residents didn't want anymore upheaval
Read that. Even if its true ( which I highly doubt), its disgraceful that the TMO would even say mention it. So what if the residents objected to a sprinkler system being installed. It should get installed anyway. Not sure how much good it would have done them all the same. God love them
Quote from: HiMucker on June 16, 2017, 09:55:43 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 16, 2017, 07:27:56 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 16, 2017, 07:08:06 PM
The lack of a common fire alarm in the building is shocking. That the girl in that report and many other remained in the building until it was too late to escape is absolutely mind - boggling.
If you were in a tower that was on fire and the fire brigade said stay in, would you stay or try and find a way out? Remember they said to the ones in the twin towers, stay there until it was too late!
It's madness that in some reports that they could have put the sprinkler system in place for 20grand! But to believe some other reports they mentioned the residents didn't want anymore upheaval
Read that. Even if its true ( which I highly doubt), its disgraceful that the TMO would even say mention it. So what if the residents objected to a sprinkler system being installed. It should get installed anyway. Not sure how much good it would have done them all the same. God love them
Until the whole truth comes out (if ever) we are listening to info from all different media outlets... I'd say most buildings meet regulations, problem is just cause it meets the regulations doesn't mean it's safe
Theresa May isn't going to see this out. More car crash TV on News night now, she is flailing about the place.
On the point earlier that there is a concerted effort to drip feed the scale of the fatalities. I had considered it, the whole reporting of it seemed off, but you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's not like these incidents happen all the time. However the protests at the town all, which included residents and family members of residents, confirmed that there is a severe lack of information coming forward. Even to those who need it most, and to the most basic of questions. Like how many people approx lived there? How many survivors have been accounted for? As someone mentioned earlier the numbers don't look good. I hope I'm wrong but I fear the death toll is going to run into the hundreds.
It might not be right to view this tragedy in a political context, but events of this magnitude always carry a political cost. It is a disaster for may, and she has handled the whole thing atrociously. This will have serious ramifications for her future, if the events over the last few weeks weren't enough anyway.
It was reported elsewhere that there has never been multiple fatalities in a fire like this in a building with an operational sprinkler system, other than where the building collapsed.
From Rte.ie
QuoteExperts have said sprinklers could have been fitted in the tower for £200,000, but Nick Paget-Brown, the Tory leader of Kensington and Chelsea Council, said there was not a "collective view" among residents in favour of installing them.
Asked if installing sprinklers was considered as part of the refurbishment, Mr Paget-Brown said the advice was that the best way to combat the spread of a fire was to contain it.
"We are now talking retrospectively after the most enormous tragedy, but many residents felt that we needed to get on with the installation of new hot water systems, new boilers and that trying to retrofit more would delay the building and that sprinklers aren't the answer," he said.
Trying to blame the residents, what a c*nt
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 16, 2017, 11:34:45 PM
From Rte.ie
QuoteExperts have said sprinklers could have been fitted in the tower for £200,000, but Nick Paget-Brown, the Tory leader of Kensington and Chelsea Council, said there was not a "collective view" among residents in favour of installing them.
Asked if installing sprinklers was considered as part of the refurbishment, Mr Paget-Brown said the advice was that the best way to combat the spread of a fire was to contain it.
"We are now talking retrospectively after the most enormous tragedy, but many residents felt that we needed to get on with the installation of new hot water systems, new boilers and that trying to retrofit more would delay the building and that sprinklers aren't the answer," he said.
Trying to blame the residents, what a c*nt
Jesus that is a joke if it wasn't so tragic. Absolutely disgraceful. No shame. Vile doesn't even do it justice.
Someone has to be thrown to the lions for this disaster. More due to the timing of her electoral disaster, rather than any direct knowledge of the failings , it will be Teresa May who is the ultimate scape goat.
No doubt this huge 24 storey blackened shell which stands as a monument to the killing of innocents in the heart of London's prime real estate is also making the extremely wealthy residents and developers looking at it from their gardens feel quite uncomfortable. Phone calls to people of influence to get it demolished ASAP will abound!
Quote from: HiMucker on June 16, 2017, 11:07:36 PM
On the point earlier that there is a concerted effort to drip feed the scale of the fatalities. I had considered it, the whole reporting of it seemed off, but you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's not like these incidents happen all the time. However the protests at the town all, which included residents and family members of residents, confirmed that there is a severe lack of information coming forward. Even to those who need it most, and to the most basic of questions. Like how many people approx lived there? How many survivors have been accounted for? As someone mentioned earlier the numbers don't look good. I hope I'm wrong but I fear the death toll is going to run into the hundreds.
It might not be right to view this tragedy in a political context, but events of this magnitude always carry a political cost. It is a disaster for may, and she has handled the whole thing atrociously. This will have serious ramifications for her future, if the events over the last few weeks weren't enough anyway.
2 girls reported missing found alive for this reason alone they dont jump the gun. Most sane people look at the building do the maths and know the death toll will be around a hundred we dont need to listen to lilly allen and the likes on another look at me venture. May has been a disaster and feel sorry that the queen at her age essentially had to do what she didnt want to.
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on June 17, 2017, 06:34:50 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on June 16, 2017, 11:07:36 PM
On the point earlier that there is a concerted effort to drip feed the scale of the fatalities. I had considered it, the whole reporting of it seemed off, but you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's not like these incidents happen all the time. However the protests at the town all, which included residents and family members of residents, confirmed that there is a severe lack of information coming forward. Even to those who need it most, and to the most basic of questions. Like how many people approx lived there? How many survivors have been accounted for? As someone mentioned earlier the numbers don't look good. I hope I'm wrong but I fear the death toll is going to run into the hundreds.
It might not be right to view this tragedy in a political context, but events of this magnitude always carry a political cost. It is a disaster for may, and she has handled the whole thing atrociously. This will have serious ramifications for her future, if the events over the last few weeks weren't enough anyway.
2 girls reported missing found alive for this reason alone they dont jump the gun. Most sane people look at the building do the maths and know the death toll will be around a hundred we dont need to listen to lilly allen and the likes on another look at me venture. May has been a disaster andfeel sorry that the queen at her age essentially had to do what she didnt want to.
Wouldn't feel that sorry considering her family is one of the richest in the world funded solely by taxpayer expense and all she has to do for it is show up in public occasionally.
Quote from: StGallsGAA on June 17, 2017, 10:52:07 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on June 17, 2017, 06:34:50 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on June 16, 2017, 11:07:36 PM
On the point earlier that there is a concerted effort to drip feed the scale of the fatalities. I had considered it, the whole reporting of it seemed off, but you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's not like these incidents happen all the time. However the protests at the town all, which included residents and family members of residents, confirmed that there is a severe lack of information coming forward. Even to those who need it most, and to the most basic of questions. Like how many people approx lived there? How many survivors have been accounted for? As someone mentioned earlier the numbers don't look good. I hope I'm wrong but I fear the death toll is going to run into the hundreds.
It might not be right to view this tragedy in a political context, but events of this magnitude always carry a political cost. It is a disaster for may, and she has handled the whole thing atrociously. This will have serious ramifications for her future, if the events over the last few weeks weren't enough anyway.
2 girls reported missing found alive for this reason alone they dont jump the gun. Most sane people look at the building do the maths and know the death toll will be around a hundred we dont need to listen to lilly allen and the likes on another look at me venture. May has been a disaster andfeel sorry that the queen at her age essentially had to do what she didnt want to.
Wouldn't feel that sorry considering her family is one of the richest in the world funded solely by taxpayer expense and all she has to do for it is show up in public occasionally.
oh look, the establishment wheel out the german royal family when times are tough for the government and they need to put on a more caring human face for an enraged populace
May is a dead woman walking
I remember after the bradford stadium fire and hillsborough it took awhile to sort out football stadia around the uk, the sorting out of multi storey death traps especially with single core stairwells will take years.
Fire Regulations became guidance not enforcement in 2006, but it stated you have to take all necessary precautions and fore see all possible fire risks and manage or reduce these within reasonable measure.
So not having fire extinguishers on each floor as would be expected - owner of the flat responsibility to manage
Have a proper fire plan in place - again owner responsible and to be enforced by fire authority
Proper detection system in place (smoke/heat detectors) - In this day and age this is standard anywhere
zoned fire protected stairwell - Contractor issue if breached due to recent work, plus PM if it was signed off as correct.
Proper fire retardant materials in building construction - Building control with contractors and Architects also culpable
How any material was used that caused fires elsewhere is unforgivable - should been automatically banned after the fire in Australia - (This is the fault of building control at high level in the uk)
( if contractor changed material - he normally would need Architect / project Manager permission no matter what building regulations stated)
No fire breaks between cladding and previous exterior finish, - In reality this has never been looked at before but fire break at ever floor is now a must - This will take a change in the building regulations
So many issues has lead to this, another typical example is overcrowding in night clubs, again this is a accident waiting to happen.
The reason there's so much aid lying around is because they all dead.
https://mobile.twitter.com/NameChangeGirl/status/876020563717881856/video/1
Theresa May is soaking up a lot of the anger generated by the tragedy and it is allowing others to escape proper scrutiny. This is her own fault and because of the political situation. Momentum and similar groups are piling in take political advantage of the tragedy.
Here's another perspective on the situation that has been put together:
(http://i.imgur.com/YTDpbu2.jpg)
Sadiq Khan failed to step in as the person with responsibility for first responders when the local authority, RBKC, failed to work on behalf of their residents. He is happy to allow activists to provide him with cover while they attack the PM.
The initial quote for refurbishment was over £1m over the budget available and it was decided to go with one which came around £2m below the available budget with the resultant reductions in quality of workmanship and lower cost materials.
It is not a question of cuts and blame for the central government when the local authority, RBKC, has an election pot of £270m not being used until the next local elections.
Details on KCTMO:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/grenfell-towers-management-company-who-are-kctmo-what-other-properties-have-they-worked-on-a3565311.html (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/grenfell-towers-management-company-who-are-kctmo-what-other-properties-have-they-worked-on-a3565311.html)
Take the time to read this excellent article from the Financial Times about the tragedy and the factors relating to it:
https://www.ft.com/content/33a32fec-52b3-11e7-bfb8-997009366969 (https://www.ft.com/content/33a32fec-52b3-11e7-bfb8-997009366969)
After 9/11 tragedy in New York, the UK government under Tony Blair produced these guidelines on how to deal with incidents like the fire at Grenfell Tower. It looks like no one has bothered to act on it at local authority in line with these guidelines and it would have to be asked where are their disaster plans?
http://cip.management.dal.ca/publications/Guidance%20in%20dealing%20with%20Fatalities.pdf (http://cip.management.dal.ca/publications/Guidance%20in%20dealing%20with%20Fatalities.pdf)
This sum of 138k or 200k to fit a proper sprinkler system i the building is crap, its nearer to 5 times the price, this aint fitting out a new building.
Quote from: AQMP on June 19, 2017, 01:01:59 PM
Latest official death toll - 79 dead or missing presumed dead.
That is on a par with the King's Cross Fire
Another attack , this time on a mosque in Finsbury Park. To go with Manchester, London Bridge and Grenfell Tower in a month.
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2017, 03:06:22 PM
Another attack , this time on a mosque in Finsbury Park. To go with Manchester, London Bridge and Grenfell Tower in a month.
Attack though by a white van driver...not a terrorist!!
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2017, 03:06:22 PM
Another attack , this time on a mosque in Finsbury Park. To go with Manchester, London Bridge and Grenfell Tower in a month.
What are you trying to say, Seafoid?
Quote from: Puckoon on June 19, 2017, 04:34:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2017, 03:06:22 PM
Another attack , this time on a mosque in Finsbury Park. To go with Manchester, London Bridge and Grenfell Tower in a month.
What are you trying to say, Seafoid?
It is very chaotic . What were you thinking of,Puckoon?
You're the one that used the phrase - another attack. Then listed 3 attacks and a tragedy. So I'm thinking this thread is about the fire in London - you're the one that posted about last nights attack in the thread.
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2017, 01:41:40 PM
Quote from: AQMP on June 19, 2017, 01:01:59 PM
Latest official death toll - 79 dead or missing presumed dead.
That is on a par with the King's Cross Fire
Far worse, its startin to head toward Aberfan levels now
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 19, 2017, 11:48:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2017, 01:41:40 PM
Quote from: AQMP on June 19, 2017, 01:01:59 PM
Latest official death toll - 79 dead or missing presumed dead.
That is on a par with the King's Cross Fire
Far worse, its startin to head toward Aberfan levels now
Let's hope that there is a better investigation than at Aberfan.
Quote from: armaghniac on June 20, 2017, 12:12:27 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 19, 2017, 11:48:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2017, 01:41:40 PM
Quote from: AQMP on June 19, 2017, 01:01:59 PM
Latest official death toll - 79 dead or missing presumed dead.
That is on a par with the King's Cross Fire
Far worse, its startin to head toward Aberfan levels now
Let's hope that there is a better investigation than at Aberfan.
There will no doubt be a VERY long error chain in this one.
Id say the relevant authorities are doing everything they can .....
........ to obfuscate themselves
Reasonably clear that this danger was known, but not acted on
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0628/886196-london-fire/
the problem here is that information on the fire risk is filed away with other routine stuff when it needed prompt action.
This Reynobond panel comes in 3 versions, one with a polyethylene (PE) core, one with a fire retardant core and another with a non-combustible core. It is also likely that in some cases the proper one was specified, but the cheaper one substituted without various people noticing the difference.
As i said before its gona the Architect who takes the blame on this and possibly the main contractor.
If the contractor changed the core it will be put to the architect (who is getting paid to inspect the work) why did you not notice this. Both him and the contractor will be in trouble
If the fire rated panel was tendered for and the Architect issued an architects instruction to change this to the non fire rated one then he is in real trouble.
My point is the blame will always make its way back to the architect.
The dangers highlighted by the Labour controlled Camden council evacuation of its tower block have not been highlighted by the media in anywhere near the hysteria that has been launched at the Tories by Labour and the media. To have managed these tower blocks with 1000 missing fire doors is nothing short of criminal and yet McDonnell claims those in Grenfell were murdered. Surely in his terms Labour controlled Camden council's actions are conspiracy to murder.
The tories have lost the media so anything will be used against them and magnified.
Quote from: imtommygunn on June 28, 2017, 11:30:06 PM
The tories have lost the media so anything will be used against them and magnified.
They haven't lost their GAA board lackey though.
One year, today.
While there is much about the episode that is disgraceful, the enquiry seems a reasonable effort so far. Let's hope so.
https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/evidence
Corbyn joined the silent march to remember the tragedy. Teresa May was out for dinner with elite bankers.
What a bastard
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/jacob-reesmogg-sparks-fury-by-saying-grenfell-residents-should-have-used-common-sense-and-fled-tower-a4278606.html
He is a horrendous individual. His comments on concentration camps weren't good either.
Quote from: MoChara on November 05, 2019, 11:40:45 AM
What a b**tard
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/jacob-reesmogg-sparks-fury-by-saying-grenfell-residents-should-have-used-common-sense-and-fled-tower-a4278606.html
Should the residents not have used common sense? He's still a bastard but I have to agree with him on this.
The Fire Brigade used to tell us to 'Get Out, Get The Fire Brigade Out & Stay Out'.
Quote from: Ambrose on November 05, 2019, 12:47:09 PM
Quote from: MoChara on November 05, 2019, 11:40:45 AM
What a b**tard
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/jacob-reesmogg-sparks-fury-by-saying-grenfell-residents-should-have-used-common-sense-and-fled-tower-a4278606.html
Should the residents not have used common sense? He's still a b**tard but I have to agree with him on this.
The Fire Brigade used to tell us to 'Get Out, Get The Fire Brigade Out & Stay Out'.
It's a different strategy for a tower block like that all previous incidents would have been wait for help but given the cladding and the fact it accelerated the fire and helped spread it the process was obviously flawed and resulted in deaths.
The Fire Brigade weren't to know this would happen but by all accounts the higher ups waited to late to change the strategy which resulted in deaths. . . ultimately the council and its contractors are the main sources of blame though!
Quote from: Ambrose on November 05, 2019, 12:47:09 PM
Quote from: MoChara on November 05, 2019, 11:40:45 AM
What a b**tard
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/jacob-reesmogg-sparks-fury-by-saying-grenfell-residents-should-have-used-common-sense-and-fled-tower-a4278606.html
Should the residents not have used common sense? He's still a b**tard but I have to agree with him on this.
The Fire Brigade used to tell us to 'Get Out, Get The Fire Brigade Out & Stay Out'.
'Common sense' could have lead to a stampeade and blocked all access from the staircores . There is a reason why 'stay put' advice was gicen on the first instance. I think it is disguisting the way the Fire Servcie are being hung out to dry on this when there are so many faults on so many companies/authorities
Quote from: Ambrose on November 05, 2019, 12:47:09 PM
Quote from: MoChara on November 05, 2019, 11:40:45 AM
What a b**tard
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/jacob-reesmogg-sparks-fury-by-saying-grenfell-residents-should-have-used-common-sense-and-fled-tower-a4278606.html
Should the residents not have used common sense? He's still a b**tard but I have to agree with him on this.
The Fire Brigade used to tell us to 'Get Out, Get The Fire Brigade Out & Stay Out'.
They were supposed to be self contained units. With a house fire you don't typically need to evacuate every house in the street unless they have all been joined up with flammable cladding to spread the fire from one to the next.
Quote from: ludermor on November 05, 2019, 03:24:23 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on November 05, 2019, 12:47:09 PM
Quote from: MoChara on November 05, 2019, 11:40:45 AM
What a b**tard
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/jacob-reesmogg-sparks-fury-by-saying-grenfell-residents-should-have-used-common-sense-and-fled-tower-a4278606.html
Should the residents not have used common sense? He's still a b**tard but I have to agree with him on this.
The Fire Brigade used to tell us to 'Get Out, Get The Fire Brigade Out & Stay Out'.
'Common sense' could have lead to a stampeade and blocked all access from the staircores . There is a reason why 'stay put' advice was gicen on the first instance. I think it is disguisting the way the Fire Servcie are being hung out to dry on this when there are so many faults on so many companies/authorities
They aren't being hung out to dry. The first thing they have looked at is the night in question which obviously covers the response of the emergency services. They'll get to the root cause later. If everyone says "oh weren't the firemen brave" without critically analysing their response, lessons are not learned.
Whichever goons told the victims to stay put as an inferno raged around them fully deserve to be hung out to dry, and worse.
Quote from: five points on November 06, 2019, 01:18:35 PM
Whichever goons told the victims to stay put as an inferno raged around them fully deserve to be hung out to dry, and worse.
That is the usual advice except LFB didn't have long ladder enough to make that advice fiasable. Also not the correct advice when the tower is clad in tinder. FAIL on planning.
Quote from: five points on November 06, 2019, 01:18:35 PM
Whichever goons told the victims to stay put as an inferno raged around them fully deserve to be hung out to dry, and worse.
Quote from: Denn Forever on November 06, 2019, 01:36:55 PM
Quote from: five points on November 06, 2019, 01:18:35 PM
Whichever goons told the victims to stay put as an inferno raged around them fully deserve to be hung out to dry, and worse.
That is the usual advice except LFB didn't have long ladder enough to make that advice fiasable. Also not the correct advice when the tower is clad in tinder. FAIL on planning.
With hindsight and now knowing that the building was clad in an equivalent to firelighters I think LFB would certainly do things differently.
If the cladding had of been made from a fire retardant rather than an accelerant then most if not all of the residents of Grenfell would have been fine with the stay put policy.
Quote from: Ambrose on November 05, 2019, 12:47:09 PM
Quote from: MoChara on November 05, 2019, 11:40:45 AM
What a b**tard
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/jacob-reesmogg-sparks-fury-by-saying-grenfell-residents-should-have-used-common-sense-and-fled-tower-a4278606.html
Should the residents not have used common sense? He's still a b**tard but I have to agree with him on this.
The Fire Brigade used to tell us to 'Get Out, Get The Fire Brigade Out & Stay Out'.
It is actually government policy to stay put and they would have been OK had it not been for the refurb of the tower, there had been fires in the past that were contained.