The IRISH RUGBY thread

[dublin7]

The next 10 is probably Harry Byrne. A quicker and better player than his older brother Ross.

Ben Healy at Munster looks the part and is progressing well.

Such a shame Carbery is wrecked by injury. He could have been a generational type talent.

Not giving either Craig Casey or Harry Bryne a shot v Georgia summed up Farrell for me and convinces me he won't be a success.

Craig Casey and Harry Byrne aren't even established at their provinces yet, so it would be a big ask to throw them into international rugby. If either province were to pick their first choice team for the Heineken cup neither would start and Harry Byrne would be struggling to make the bench. 

Andy Farrell has introduced new players to the squad, but fans need to be realistic. At the moment England are just better than Ireland. Only South Africa would beat them at the moment or maybe France on a good day. With Covid causing so much disruption I don't think you can judge Andy Farrell until after the 6 nations next season

[Walter Cronc]

The next 10 is probably Harry Byrne. A quicker and better player than his older brother Ross.

Ben Healy at Munster looks the part and is progressing well.

Such a shame Carbery is wrecked by injury. He could have been a generational type talent.

Not giving either Craig Casey or Harry Bryne a shot v Georgia summed up Farrell for me and convinces me he won't be a success.

Craig Casey and Harry Byrne aren't even established at their provinces yet, so it would be a big ask to throw them into international rugby. If either province were to pick their first choice team for the Heineken cup neither would start and Harry Byrne would be struggling to make the bench. 

Andy Farrell has introduced new players to the squad, but fans need to be realistic. At the moment England are just better than Ireland. Only South Africa would beat them at the moment or maybe France on a good day. With Covid causing so much disruption I don't think you can judge Andy Farrell until after the 6 nations next season

James Ryan played for Ireland before Leinster.

Ex players have called for both to be included and in the case of CC at Munster he's had plenty of game time this season. England started a very inexperienced outside centre against us.

IMO we don't blood players quick enough. Our U20s beat France in the two years they won the U20 world cup. Look at the contrast between the careers of Ntamack and Byrne. Now I know the former is a special talent but he's been given the opportunity. That's all we're asking for here.

[seafoid]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gordon-d-arcy-where-is-ireland-s-progress-under-david-nucifora-1.4424826?mode=amp

There are way too many outstanding questions about what Nucifora is doing for Irish rugby's long term future and his refusal to answer them this week should not be accepted by anyone who truly cares about the game.

[seafoid]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gordon-d-arcy-where-is-ireland-s-progress-under-david-nucifora-1.4424826

Gordon D'Arcy: Where is Ireland's progress under David Nucifora?

Australian's attitude to the press grates with euphoria of 2018 now just a distant memory
about 3 hours ago Updated: about an hour ago

Gordon D'Arcy

Amidst the euphoria of beating the All Blacks in Chicago four years ago, David Nucifora might well have glanced down from Trump Tower at the alchemy Theo Epstein had conjured for The Cubs and thought: 'I can achieve something similar with Irish rugby.'

The World Series is a lofty ambition but over that heady weekend in 2016 anything seemed possible.

Epstein – who also removed 'Curse of the Bambino' hanging over The Boston Red Sox – recently walked away from Chicago, nine years into an executive role that he believes should never exceed a decade.

"It became really clear that we'd be facing some significant long-term decisions this winter, decisions with long-term impacts,'' Epstein explained. "Those types of decisions are really best made by somebody who's going to be here for a long time, not just for one more year. Jed Hoyer clearly is that person.''

The cleanest of transition allows the 46-year-old Epstein to leave a stunning legacy of high performance in baseball.

Six years ago Nucifora arrived on Lansdowne Road, into a position essentially created to suit his expertise as an overseer of the island's professional structures, with a plan to apply to Irish rugby what sort of worked in Australia and New Zealand.

Donnacha Ryan celebrates Ireland's win over the All Blacks in 2016. Photograph: Billy Stickland/Inpho
Donnacha Ryan celebrates Ireland's win over the All Blacks in 2016. Photograph: Billy Stickland/Inpho
There are way too many outstanding questions about what Nucifora is doing for Irish rugby's long term future and his refusal to answer them this week should not be accepted by anyone who truly cares about the game.

Plenty of the issues evident in 2013 are still on the agenda.

What happened to plans to deliver a three-strong depth chart in every position, especially after Ireland were so badly exposed at the 2015 World Cup? Put it another way, why are injury numbers off the charts again?

The Monday press conference after playing Georgia was a strategic decision that backfired spectacularly.

Unbowed, the Sevens programme sounds like Nucifora's solution to almost every problem. Hugo Keenan and Will Connors are the examples he rolled out but that suggests neither player would have come through the ranks regardless.

Alarm bells
What's happening with the club and school scene, David?

Answer: I am too busy running the professional game.

That alone should send alarm bells ringing through the grassroots.

Who has seen last year's World Cup review, David?

Answer: "It was distributed to the people who needed to read it."

Ok, who?

Answer: "People within Irish rugby who were going to benefit from it."

If anyone has laid eyes on this sacred document, drop us an email (we are presuming it exists).

A media strategy that essentially sticks two fingers up at anyone who asks a question Nucifora does not have an answer to is bad business for everyone involved.

Gordon D'Arcy: I know what Joe and Cheika would do. Fix the basics
Gordon D'Arcy: Ireland must be smarter as they stand up to England's bullies
Gordon D'Arcy: Farrell's challenge is getting player buy-in to incremental change
CLICK HERE: Irish Times guide to sport on TV this weekCLICK HERE: Irish Times guide to sport on TV this week
As much as Nucifora's refusal to discuss player contracts with agents is about stark financial realities, it is also a negotiation tool
What about the "performance anxiety" cited as a major issue in Japan (and so obviously still in existence)?

Answer: "It has been addressed."

No detail followed because Nucifora does not believe he is accountable to the Irish public. This is clear as day in his attitude.

What about France 2023, David, how do Ireland avoid being quarter-final cannon fodder yet again?

Answer: "As we get closer to 2023 I'll come back to you and let you know what the score will be in the semi final."

Is the World Cup semi-final still a goal?

Answer: "I'd like to get to the final."

This was delivered with a laugh. Accountability has to matter.

Maro Itoje tackles Andrew Porter during Ireland's defeat to England. Photograph: Billy Stickland/Inpho
Maro Itoje tackles Andrew Porter during Ireland's defeat to England. Photograph: Billy Stickland/Inpho
The Nucifora plan to fill the power vacuum created by foreign players, CJ Stander and Bundee Aki in particular, now the recruitment via residency is over, remains very light on detail. Essentially, he is doubling down on the granny rule coupled with seeping Sevens rugby into GAA heartlands and untapped populations like west Dublin.

How exactly will this be done?

Answer: Introducing Sevens to schools "that don't play rugby as a fixed sport."

The areas and schools that will be targeted remain a mystery.

Maybe 2018 was as good as it is going to get
Nucifora answered the questions he felt like answering perhaps because he does not consider himself answerable to anyone, which begs the question: who in the IRFU does he report to and what are his key performance indicators?

People deserve to know.

Nucifora was hired as the panacea for professional issues beyond the scope of amateur committee men. The turkeys voted for Christmas but, right now, the former Wallaby hooker appears to be causing as many problems as he is solving.

What, for example, does success look like for him?

Maybe 2018 was as good as it is going to get. Maybe the Six Nations Grand Slam is Ireland's world series of baseball because if we judge Nucifora's tenure on World Cups, by his own yardstick, it has been a failure.

All of this makes me very worried for the long term future of Irish rugby as we enter a period where every decision will have a massive impact 10 years from now.

Epstein realised he was not the man to guide The Chicago Cubs out of the pandemic and into the great beyond. The media enquired about Nucifora's plans for the future and he responded by showing everyone how evasive he can be on a Microsoft Teams call.

Contracts
As much as Nucifora's refusal to discuss player contracts with agents is about stark financial realities, it is also a negotiation tool. He is very skilled in this regard and deserves credit for keeping all the players Irish rugby needed – besides Simon Zebo and Donnacha Ryan who both decided to leave but can only be wondering how many caps they left on the table – but, currently, 50 per cent of the country's playing staff have no financial security beyond July.

That's a lot of stressed families at Christmas. It is also half our national squad heading into the 2021 Six Nations feeling like they are playing for their livelihood - never a wise means of motivation – while getting their agents to find viable alternatives abroad. Just in case.

The Ben Healy to Glasgow story is only the start of players reacting to Nucifora's silence. Healy's next contract should not be a negotiation, it must be an investment in his rare talent. Otherwise, the Scots will pull off the granny rule with a young Munster outhalf.

Pandemic or not, Healy needs to be paid to market value.

Ben Healy in action for Munster against Zebre on Monday. Photograph: Morgan Treacy/Inpho
Ben Healy in action for Munster against Zebre on Monday. Photograph: Morgan Treacy/Inpho
Nucifora either refused to provide a clear plan during Monday's press conference or he doesn't have one. To my mind, the first is equally as troubling as the second.

Where are we going David and are you coming with us?

Some clarity about the IRFU's medium term plans would be a sign of actual leadership. So long as the public is denied access to stadiums the drain on finance will be immense but Nucifora, by denying supporters access to any sort of roadmap, is causing more harm than good.

Under his direction, the union decided to appoint the national coaching team via a continuity plan. Attack coach Mike Catt is the only person who entered the system from abroad and now we have the entire England coaching ticket from 2015 working with Ireland, Munster and Leinster.

Farrell is correct about Twickenham being a 'priceless' experience. Creativity under intense pressure is what great rugby teams are all about
Stuart Lancaster was proved a superb hire by Leo Cullen, who four years ago was the problem child for Nucifora as Pat Lam, Les Kiss and Rassie Erasmus appeared to be improving the other provinces. Nucifora was unable to retain two of the three and he took ruthless action with Les during a coordinated rebuilding process in Ulster.

In theory, coaching continuity makes sense. Doubts are beginning to be raised – Shane Horgan has made some cutting remarks – but there is no need to panic on this front just yet. Andy Farrell's team of coaches will get a pass for the shambolic set piece, scrum and rucking throughout the Autumn Nations Cup if Scotland are overcome.

How many passes does Nucifora get? Four more years could leave Irish rugby in a deeper hole than before he landed.

[yellowcard]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/08/steve-thompson-interview-world-cup-rugby-union-dementia-special-report

This is horrific and I imagine it is only the start of the repercussions for a sport that has way too much emphasis on bulk, size and winning the collisions.

[lenny]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/08/steve-thompson-interview-world-cup-rugby-union-dementia-special-report

This is horrific and I imagine it is only the start of the repercussions for a sport that has way too much emphasis on bulk, size and winning the collisions.

You'd have to worry for Jonny sexton especially. He's had some number of concussions in the last few years.

[thewobbler]

The interesting thing about Thompson is that although he would probably only have middle-of-the-road speed and power for a front row in 2020, he was one of the prototypes of the modern player - bringing top class mobility and ball-carrying power to the team regardless of the number on their back.

And the thing is, he would have spent most of his career running into lads who were smaller and lighter; the collisions were nearly always in his favour.

Not like today.

I reckon rugby will be closed for good in 10-15 years; the first wave from Thompson's generation will (rightly) generate a fear of that's to come, and it will become an un-insurable sport or pastime.

[seafoid]

The interesting thing about Thompson is that although he would probably only have middle-of-the-road speed and power for a front row in 2020, he was one of the prototypes of the modern player - bringing top class mobility and ball-carrying power to the team regardless of the number on their back.

And the thing is, he would have spent most of his career running into lads who were smaller and lighter; the collisions were nearly always in his favour.

Not like today.

I reckon rugby will be closed for good in 10-15 years; the first wave from Thompson's generation will (rightly) generate a fear of that's to come, and it will become an un-insurable sport or pastime.

The unions don't have the money for the lawsuits in development.

Earnings lost from mid 40s to  retirement for a father with kids plus  medical costs multiplied by X plus legal fees

The England forwards bring short term gains.

[yellowcard]

The interesting thing about Thompson is that although he would probably only have middle-of-the-road speed and power for a front row in 2020, he was one of the prototypes of the modern player - bringing top class mobility and ball-carrying power to the team regardless of the number on their back.

And the thing is, he would have spent most of his career running into lads who were smaller and lighter; the collisions were nearly always in his favour.

Not like today.

I reckon rugby will be closed for good in 10-15 years; the first wave from Thompson's generation will (rightly) generate a fear of that's to come, and it will become an un-insurable sport or pastime.

Whilst that sounds extreme it wouldn't surprise me either. I read another interview recently that Paul Kimmage did with Dylan Hartley in which he said that he often struggles to walk in straight lines.

Parents will not be sending their children to play a sport where their long term health is put in jeopardy. Maybe world rugby can do something to lessen the impact but a bit like the Dublin dominance in GAA, it may be too far down the road

[yellowcard]

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2020/aug/28/dylan-hartley-rugby-normalises-pain-and-injuries-its-the-reality?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet&__twitter_impression=true

You won't hear too many ex pros speak out about the modern professional game but Hartley has had his say in a recent book. I think the Steve Thompson revelations today should finally force the authorities and rugby media to sit up and highlight the major ongoing issues which have gone largely unspoken for over a decade. Even today I see a lack of commentary from the rugby media for what should be a huge story. There has been as much commentary around the impact from heading a football as there has been around bodily impacts in rugby. Both deserve attention in their own right but the issues in rugby are far more obvious yet have gone largely ignored or glossed over to date.

[seafoid]

The interesting thing about Thompson is that although he would probably only have middle-of-the-road speed and power for a front row in 2020, he was one of the prototypes of the modern player - bringing top class mobility and ball-carrying power to the team regardless of the number on their back.

And the thing is, he would have spent most of his career running into lads who were smaller and lighter; the collisions were nearly always in his favour.

Not like today.

I reckon rugby will be closed for good in 10-15 years; the first wave from Thompson's generation will (rightly) generate a fear of that's to come, and it will become an un-insurable sport or pastime.

Whilst that sounds extreme it wouldn't surprise me either. I read another interview recently that Paul Kimmage did with Dylan Hartley in which he said that he often struggles to walk in straight lines.

Parents will not be sending their children to play a sport where their long term health is put in jeopardy. Maybe world rugby can do something to lessen the impact but a bit like the Dublin dominance in GAA, it may be too far down the road

There is more on concussion here http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=26707.msg1563524#msg1563524

[oakleaflad]

Brave bit away yet but Ireland have been handed a tough WC2023 group, with both South Africa and Scotland included. Mad how far out this is decided.

South Africa
Ireland
Scotland
Asia/Pacific 1
Europe 2

[square_ball]

With a probably quarter final against either the hosts France or New Zealand. I can't see the quarter final hoodoo being broke this time either.

[Capt Pat]

England got the best out of that draw. Assuming they qualify from their group. France, New Zealand and South Africa are in the other half of the draw and England would end up facing one of them in the final. England and those 3 will be the best teams but a lot can change in 3 years.

[square_ball]

Wales, Fiji and Australia seem to be in the same pool every tournament.