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There are few men who have given as much to Cork football and the GAA in general - when you have contributed half as much then, you might have just cause to criticise him !

Well we may as well just pack up this board if you can't criticise people unless you have played in and coached teams to AI finals. I would and have heavily criticsed Billy over the past few years for his handling of the Cork football panel, that is my opinion based on what I have seen, it is nothing personal and I have never resorted to any kind of personal abuse towards Billy. I know Orangeman that Billy is a bit of a hero of yours but while I accept he has done wonderful things for Cork football I feel he has done a pretty poor job with a talented bunch of players these past few years.

Sephenite, it wasn't rightous indignation or mock outrage on my part I simply prefer to discuss issues in a mature fashion and beginning your post by telling another poster that they are talking through their hole (especially when you are dependent on information from a friend) is immature and not conducive to an adult debate. I hope I've made my point and you can accept that, so I'll return to the issue itself.
                         However I'm not sure if there is much point in discussing this with you as you have repeated two points in both your posts namely....

I'd be 99.9% sure you're talking rubbish, lying, or just making it up

and

I do not believe for one second that this issue would have reached this serious a level without the committees of each clubs having discussed it by now and not just leave it up to the whims of the delegates

So it seems you won't even entertain the possibility that any of the points I have made could be valid and based on facts. You go on to say that....

I am happy to continue this debate also and for the record "you're talking out your hole" hardly constitutes personal abuse in my opinion, I will tone it down if only not to give you any further opportunity to try and deflect from what I am trying to say using you're holier than thou attitude to distract from the real point.

Yet you have made no points other than to say.....

I do not believe for one second that this issue would have reached this serious a level without the committees of each clubs having discussed it by now and not just leave it up to the whims of the delegates

Which you say is backed up by a friend in Cork GAA circles, i.e you have not made one even semi-factual point in this debate so far but have only given your opinion that you don't believe the scenario I have painted. So how am I trying to distract from the real point when you have made none. I'm the only one(so far) who has made any kind of argument as to why I hold my position, it is you who hasn't engaged in the debate preferring to simply cover your ears and shout I don't believe you, your lying.
                                        This friend of yours who claims that the grassroots are against the players sounds like some of the lads here who claimed the grassroots were against the GPA. And like them he can't know what everyone thinks, I have plenty of friends involved in the GAA down in Cork and while very few support the players strike none of them support the CB. The general opinion of people I know is that both  sides should grow up and get this sorted out. In saying that to a man they all disagree with what the board did and how it was achieved, everyone I spoke to on this issue felt that the board pulled a stroke, they manipulated the ill feeling that club delegates had for the county management teams to get this through. Like I said in a previous post I know of at least three clubs who didn't debate this issue, this is a fact whether you believe me is neither here nor there.
                       Cork club delegates voted to support this motion twice, that is a fact but the process and motivations of individuals can only be speculated on by you or me, your opinion is no more factually correct than my own in this regard. But from all I can deduce from my sources, which are fairly numerous and from my own experience in Cork GAA this stinks of underhanded dealings designed to decrease IC management power in Cork while increasing CB power. CB members are elected to do what's best for the GAA in a fair and open manner this hasn't happened here. However I'd accept that the players have gone about their business in the wrong way and I feel the strike was the wrong move but I'd strongly suspect that they would have been left with no other option by this board anyway, it seems to be the only thing they understand.

We are discussing this on the main page, aren't we?

I still cannot beleive that Student grants are being dragged up into this 'argument' - grants AWARDED TO STUDENTS ...non working people
FFS
its not even the same planet, let alone same ballpark

Just because think so doesn't make it so.

You are AWARDED a grant because you are a STUDENT and a footballer/hurler not because you are an inter county player and most def not because you 'deserve' one because you picked a path that prevented you from working full time, and most certainly NOT because you PLAY for the college/uni.

I didn't get my grant because I was a student, I got it because I was a student playing football. I wasn't eligible for the grant unless I played GAA, you seem to be having difficulty with this. I could have gone to University and not played GAA, which would have meant no grant, instead I went to University and did play GAA which meant I did get the grant. To me it seems clear why I got money put into my hand.
                             Yes, most students can't work full time but we can work during the summer (4 months), during the Christmas (1 month) and on a weekly part time basis. You seem to be arguing that the grants allow players to play GAA who otherwise could not but that is simply not true (as far as I know). The grant money I get is too little to allow me not work but others get a lot more and are promised this if they go to a particular college. In fact a number of colleges are notorious for dropping points to get lads in on courses which they barely need to attend. You paint a very misleading picture of the college scene and if you knew what was going on you wouldn't think that the comparison between the govt. grants and student grants was so ridiculous.

So because I oppose the grants that I should stand up in my club and say that our Under 12 & Under 10 teams should not have been taken away on a day trip paid for by the club back in September?

No of course not, but the point is that lots of people are getting 'rewarded' from GAA coffers through student grants, holidays, holiday vouchers, playing in the US, under the counter payments  etc. so to selectively pick out one payment and talk about this being the end of the GAA is unsustainable IMO.

By that definition, are you against say your club taking & paying for the under 14 team away for a day trip to the cinema & bowling alley with a feed afterwards at the end of the season?

Tram, DFS has already answered that, as he said in the post just previous to that....

My view is that if you support the Grants like I do then there is no issue with Student Grants, player holidays, All-Star trips, International Rules, Players going to the US, Managers getting paid etc (In other words everything that is currently and openly going on (apart from Managers getting paid)),

And like him I have no problem with any of this, but I fail to see how you can oppose the grants while feeling these things are acceptable.

On the NFL website all the teams are across the top of the home page you just click on the icon and you get onto their respective 'sites'. Could the GAA not do that? Like some lads have already metioned you should be able to get the scores from the club scene and this would seem like an easy way to direct you to the county you want. Also more and better coaching tips and information would be nice, both Derry and Louth GAA websites have some good stuff, but the GAA could ask top coaches past and present to compile drills and conditioned games for coaches and post them up in a coaching corner with new ones each week.

Not sure why you are asking, are you suggesting that if you choose a path that prevents you from working full time you deserve a grant (and at that only some who do this will get the grant) but if you can work you shouldn't get anything?
                               But to answer your question other than the summer months as a student I couldn't work full time.

zulu, there is no way anyone could maintain a decent level of 3rd level study togeather with an inter county career and a part time job. i was just about able to do it just playing lower level club football. if you know someone who can successfully juggle all three i would like to meet him or her.

Students don't get the grants for being IC players they get them for being University players. For example, in my own University some of the grants are allocated to fresher players and most of these lads tend not to be current IC players. They are too old for minor and not yet able to make their county U21 or senior teams. Now of course other lads are playing U21 and senior IC but you get the grant based on your abilities in your college, so in some Universities like DCU or Queens you probably are playing IC but in some of the weaker colleges you could be a club player only and still get the grant. College players get money for playing GAA if you think this is acceptable then IMO you can't logically oppose the grants to IC players. The economic argument doesn't hold water in my opinion, because not every IC playing student gets a grant, yet most of them manage to play IC and get their degree. Too many of the anti-grant posters seem to think that every IC players life is like that of a Tyrone or Dublin footballer, the fact is that many of them get little out of playing IC GAA and if the govt. are willing to give them some financial reward then we should support it.
                                   If this goes to a vote of GAA membership and the grants are rejected what then? Do you think the GPA will just crumble, do you think that IC players will just shrug their shoulders and carry on? I would fear for the long-term repercussions to the GAA, by supporting the grant players are placated, GAA coffers are left untouched and the GPA have accepted the GAA have no responsibility to pay the grants at anytime in the future. By rejecting it we polarize opinions and widen the gap between IC players and the rest of us. I know I'd be quite angry if I were a Louth hurler being given €800 by the govt. and that was taken away from me by my fellow GAA members. I think I might be inclined to say 'screw this find some other poor sap to travel around the country representing the county for f**k all recognition or reward '(sportingly). There might be lads willing to give their right arm to play football for Kerry, Tyrone or Mayo but I'd wager there aren't many desperate to play hurling for Louth, Longford and quite a few others
.

While I suppose it is pointless redoing all this again as it seems no-one on either side has been convinced by the arguments of the other side, it seems to me that the anti-grant/GPA/pay for play brigade are unwilling to address the contradictions in their argument, they are against paying IC players, end of. They don't listen to what pro-grant posters are saying rather they interpret what you say as they want to and then dismiss that interpretation as wrong/naive/ridiculous.
                             Lynchbhoys post is the most recent example of this, for example he dismisses DFS comparison between student grants and IC grants as "comparing apples and mountains." Yet as I already said in a previous post I got a €1000 cheque from a provincial council for playing Gaelic games as a student i.e. more than many IC players will get from the grant. Our season starts in October and finishes in early March (if successful) and could include as few as 3 games for some grant recipients. Some lads get much more than this, sponsored cars, paid accommodation, training trips abroad and more. How anyone can support student grants (much of which comes directly from GAA coffers) yet be against grants to lads who keep IC hurling going in places like Roscommon/Donegal/Longford or football in Waterford/Limerick/Tipperary is beyond me. If you were against both I could understand but pro one and anti the other is simply illogical. And don't start on the poor student story, I know that for at least two of my fellow grant recipients their parents pay for their accommodation, bought them a car and give them a few bob to get them through the week.

Why are you stupidly dragging in student grants..these people are unable to work or work full time - so why penalise them ?

This is wrong many can and do work part time and most,that I know of, are supported by their parents so the grant isn't the difference between playing or not playing. Surely if that was the case then only grant recipients would be able to play.

We do not have the economy to sustain semi pro or professionalism.
Did the rugby fiasco here and in wales pass you pay for play chappies by ?

Not one pro-grant poster has said they are in favour of a professional GAA, in fact I think we have all said we wouldn't support a professional GAA. We are pro-grant, a completely different thing. If the GAA proposes to pay IC players a living wage then that is a completely different thing which would require a change of rules and a democratic vote by the associations membership.

[vote contrary to any mandate]

I find it so hard to believe as to be 99.9% sure you're talking out your hole to be honest

Always good to start a discussion with a pig ignorant comment like that. I'd also wager I know a bit more about the goings on in Cork than you do. In saying that since I'm not on the Cork county board, a member of either panel or a Cork club delegate, I can only give my opinion based on my knowledge of the scene down there and from what I'm told by friends closer to the heart of it.

I find it very hard to believe that clubs in Cork are willing to blindly led by the County Board executive

It is generally club delegates that vote on these things not clubs (I know I've never been asked my opinion before my club delegate voted on anything) and many of these lads have been involved in committees for years and have built up relationships with other lifelong committee men like Frank or Bob Honahan,many would also have ambitions to climb the administrative ladder. As a result many (not all) can be easily convinced to vote a certain way (doesn't pay to cross Frank if you want to progress), add in the fact that many club delegates were keen to take down the county managers a peg or two and it is clear that a vote from this group wasn't necessarily made in the best interests of the Cork senior teams.

You mention that many delegates vote contrary to any mandate given to them by their club, is there proof of this?

No I didn't I said this........

the fact that many club delegates will vote whatever way the executive tell them and not necessarily how their club mandates them

So to clear this up for you as it seems you don't actually read other peoples posts I said delegates may not vote as mandated by their clubs not that they never do. And I know that three friends of mine heavily involved in their respective clubs have told me that there was no debate on this issue in any of their clubs. So it appears that some clubs never mandated their delegates one way or the other, and the players unnecessarily militant stance probably had delegates backs up for the second vote. As is the case in most disputes the blame for this mess is shared between both parties but the Cork board must take most of the blame as they went down this path not for the best of Cork GAA but to wrestle back power from the players.
                                  Feel free to respond Stephenite if you have any issue with what I've said but keep your insults to yourself as I've no intention in getting into a childish debate peppered with personal abuse.  

Forgive my ignorance, but is it not a case of a massive majority of all club delegates backing the decision by the County Board?

That's correct but there was little or no debate on this before it was put before the delegates, the CB had to know how the players would react to this but went ahead anyway. Cork clubs are sick of the attitude of Cork county managers to club fixtures and the availability of their players, which is fair enough. And the CB wanted to get rid of Billy Morgan and get back the power they lost in the last strike. These factors and the fact that many club delegates will vote whatever way the executive tell them and not necessarily how their club mandates them has led to this majority vote.
                The propensity of county managers to demand the cancellation of club fixtures and player availability are genuine concerns but they should be sorted out by discussion and agreement between county managements and the CB, not by getting CB selectors onto the management teams of county teams.

I agree Morgan wasn't the man to lead Cork to an AI but I don't believe that any of the top managers in either code would accept selectors being hoisted upon them. For example Teddy MacCarthy has had no involvement in football management since retiring, so what exactly is he bringing to the party? And how can the players have a good working relationship with a management team that allowed themselves go forward in the middle of the strike? The players will look on these guys as CB lackeys whether it is the case or not. The whole thing is a mess but the CB created it by going about their business in an underhand manner.

WHat they and everyone else knows is that their real achievement has been the acceptance of the pay for play principle.

That's only your opinion Hardy not a fact, the government are paying a grant, the GPA have accepted that the GAA have no responsibility to pay this in the event of the govt. stopping the grant. And if the GAA were to ever pay players directly for playing then a rule change would be required. Professionalism, where the GAA pay it's players, can only occur if the GAA votes for it.

From this point forward, if this goes ahead, the argument is no longer about whether players can get paid. It's just about how much.

No, it's about who pays them.

Well then it should be put on the clar and dealt with properly, rather than the underhand matter that it is at present. Roll on congress, I believe there are quite a few counties with motions to put an end to the grants before they begin.

I'd have no problem with that but I hope it isn't full of scaremongering arguments based on 'thin edge of the wedge prophecies'. If the debate is reasoned and not emotional and if people vote on what is best for the GAA and not based on their opinion of the GPA then great, but I'd fear that cries of imminent destruction would appeal to the natural conservatism of many GAA 'committee men', not to mention the opportunity to put the GPA back in their box.

Zulu - -can't agree with you - not all clubs have the same amount of resources at their disposal - eg somewhere in this board it was said that a certain Building Suppliers firm will be paying for an outside manager this year - not all clubs have that resource available to them -

Same thing when it comes to counties - how many counties have the same resources as Dublin ? Tyrone ?

Would Leitrim be able to compete ? Never.

I agree 100% Orangeman that is why I think it is great that a Leitrim hurler is getting some few bob and not just the big players in the big counties. Now maybe some wealthy businessmen in certain counties are willing to pay some players to devote themselves to full time training but it is in that system that real elitism exists not in this grant scheme.