Incoming President favours a tiered championship structure

Started by Jinxy, March 14, 2018, 11:39:07 AM

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AZOffaly

Quote from: thewobbler on March 15, 2018, 12:04:42 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 11:13:53 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 11:08:35 AM
Unless the League is somehow incorporated into the Championship it is and will remain a pre Season tournament with teams at varying level of fitness, trialling new lads missing Club Championship lads etc.
My main objections to Seànie's well thought out idea is letting the lowest tier Champions into a Semi Final.
I'd go for Quarter Final at most
Could I also point out again that both player organisations were totally opposed to the "Super 8" but the wise old heads of Congress went ahead as they always will.
Lifetime of experience versus young undeveloped minds who will be active for a few short years.

The Qualifiers were also brought in by wise old heads. Again to increase revenue. Are they a success? Are they even better than just straight knockout?

They weren't brought in to generate revenue per se. They were brought in to address the problem that counties were training for 6 months for 1 match. Its biggest failing is that it (unnecessarily) elongated the span of the county season, and has made the issue of county player availability more prominent across Ireland.

The solution was, is and always has been to raise the profile of the league, and give smaller counties a platform to incrementally improve.

The league as a competition has improved over the past 15 years. But it's still such a poor cousin.

Wobbler, I think that was the 'public' reason. I think the real reason was the one I gave. As it happens, I agree 100% with you about the league.


thewobbler

But AZ those reasons never had to be mutually exclusive. It was a win for the players and win for the beancounters. 

AZOffaly

Quote from: thewobbler on March 15, 2018, 12:08:36 PM
But AZ those reasons never had to be mutually exclusive. It was a win for the players and win for the beancounters.

I wouldn't agree it's a win for the players, or not all of them at least.

It has removed the do or die element from championship, which has led to this 'The Championship Doesn't Start until August' stuff.
It has prolonged the season needlessly for a large percentage of teams.
It has negated the effects of the shock result in the provincials.

As far as I can see, the main beneficiaries are the big boys. Now you have to beat them twice to kill them off. Imagine if Tipperary or Cork beat Kerry in Munster. They should be gone, not stroll into a Super 8 via the back door.

I understand the awful finality of a bad day at the office for a competing team, but to me that was always part of the thrill of championship.

In saying that, I do recognise the value it has had for teams like Tipperary in their development. It's not all bad, but a stronger league with a knockout championship would suit me fine.

magpie seanie

The league is a tremendous competition (football and hurling). The time of year is the major factor that makes it inferior to the championship in my opinion.

AZOffaly

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 15, 2018, 12:14:53 PM
The league is a tremendous competition (football and hurling). The time of year is the major factor that makes it inferior to the championship in my opinion.

I agree.

magpie seanie

Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 11:08:35 AM
Unless the League is somehow incorporated into the Championship it is and will remain a pre Season tournament with teams at varying level of fitness, trialling new lads missing Club Championship lads etc.
My main objections to Seànie's well thought out idea is letting the lowest tier Champions into a Semi Final.
I'd go for Quarter Final at most
Could I also point out again that both player organisations were totally opposed to the "Super 8" but the wise old heads of Congress went ahead as they always will.
Lifetime of experience versus young undeveloped minds who will be active for a few short years.

I'll clarify. In my initial post I stated this incorrectly. Junior champions should enter a playoff with Intermediate runners up for a semi final spot (effectively a quarter final).

Maroon Manc

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 12:13:12 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 15, 2018, 12:08:36 PM
But AZ those reasons never had to be mutually exclusive. It was a win for the players and win for the beancounters.

I wouldn't agree it's a win for the players, or not all of them at least.

It has removed the do or die element from championship, which has led to this 'The Championship Doesn't Start until August' stuff.
It has prolonged the season needlessly for a large percentage of teams.
It has negated the effects of the shock result in the provincials.

As far as I can see, the main beneficiaries are the big boys. Now you have to beat them twice to kill them off. Imagine if Tipperary or Cork beat Kerry in Munster. They should be gone, not stroll into a Super 8 via the back door.

I understand the awful finality of a bad day at the office for a competing team, but to me that was always part of the thrill of championship.

In saying that, I do recognise the value it has had for teams like Tipperary in their development. It's not all bad, but a stronger league with a knockout championship would suit me fine.

How do you make the league stronger though?

AZOffaly

Play it at the same time of year as the championship, like the FA Cup and League.  Seed championship draws based on previous years League placing.

joemamas

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 11:13:53 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 11:08:35 AM
Unless the League is somehow incorporated into the Championship it is and will remain a pre Season tournament with teams at varying level of fitness, trialling new lads missing Club Championship lads etc.
My main objections to Seànie's well thought out idea is letting the lowest tier Champions into a Semi Final.
I'd go for Quarter Final at most
Could I also point out again that both player organisations were totally opposed to the "Super 8" but the wise old heads of Congress went ahead as they always will.
Lifetime of experience versus young undeveloped minds who will be active for a few short years.

The Qualifiers were also brought in by wise old heads. Again to increase revenue. Are they a success? Are they even better than just straight knockout?

I would say the qualifiers were initially a success when they were introduced way back in 2001. People were sick to death of usual shite and maybe watching one competitive game every two weeks.

Problem is that over the past five years or so divergence between top 10 or 12 and the rest has increased immeasurably. After twenty years of it nothing wrong with tweaking it again.

There is no quick solution, it truly could take five years or more.
As I mentioned on Page 1, if GAA are serious about attempting to close the gap, they will need to come out with a plan alongside new system to pour funds into counties that initially do not end up in top tier(s).

Unfortunately, the elephant in the room is money. Do you really think a "career manager" (maybe a bit unfair), currently managing a division 3 or 4 team, will come out and support a system that may cut the available funds to properly train a count team by a third or in half, because those teams initially may not be playing for Sam ? .

Jinxy

I think the starting point should be to accept that there is no perfect structure that will please everyone.
You could come up with an amazing solution to the existing problems with the inter-county structure, but how will that affect the clubs?
We have too many moving parts.
Too many people playing for too many teams.
The optimal solution will require compromise.
If you were any use you'd be playing.

Farrandeelin

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 12:34:14 PM
Play it at the same time of year as the championship, like the FA Cup and League.  Seed championship draws based on previous years League placing.

And extend the players unavailability to the clubs? And those who propose letting junior champions into senior semis/quarters, does that not defeat the tiered approach? To re-insert Rossfan's club championship argument, how many counties allow junior teams a pathway to win senior championships?
Inaugural Football Championship Prediction Winner.

AZOffaly

Quote from: Farrandeelin on March 15, 2018, 12:39:25 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 12:34:14 PM
Play it at the same time of year as the championship, like the FA Cup and League.  Seed championship draws based on previous years League placing.

And extend the players unavailability to the clubs? And those who propose letting junior champions into senior semis/quarters, does that not defeat the tiered approach? To re-insert Rossfan's club championship argument, how many counties allow junior teams a pathway to win senior championships?

why would it extend the unavailability? They are unavailable for the duration of the league as it is, and before the championship starts, and while they wait for a qualifier exit. If the competitions ran side by side, you wouldn't be without them that much longer.

Esmarelda

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 11:20:39 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 15, 2018, 11:19:46 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2018, 11:17:44 AM
Straight knock out = train for 9 months for 1 game for half the players.
Might be ok if a 32 County competition and not  locked into unequal Provinces.
No matter what structures us introduced it will have to be passed by the Wise Old Ones.
You mean the county board reps who are instructed how to vote by the club reps at the county board meetings who are sent by the various clubs of whom all the players are members?


Yeah, those guys who for some reason rejected a motion that would make their votes transparent.
Exactly those guys. Now all club players should demand answers. Or rather, they should have attended the meetings before congress to inform themselves as to what way their club rep was going to vote.

Jinxy

Quote from: Maroon Manc on March 15, 2018, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 12:13:12 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 15, 2018, 12:08:36 PM
But AZ those reasons never had to be mutually exclusive. It was a win for the players and win for the beancounters.

I wouldn't agree it's a win for the players, or not all of them at least.

It has removed the do or die element from championship, which has led to this 'The Championship Doesn't Start until August' stuff.
It has prolonged the season needlessly for a large percentage of teams.
It has negated the effects of the shock result in the provincials.

As far as I can see, the main beneficiaries are the big boys. Now you have to beat them twice to kill them off. Imagine if Tipperary or Cork beat Kerry in Munster. They should be gone, not stroll into a Super 8 via the back door.

I understand the awful finality of a bad day at the office for a competing team, but to me that was always part of the thrill of championship.

In saying that, I do recognise the value it has had for teams like Tipperary in their development. It's not all bad, but a stronger league with a knockout championship would suit me fine.

How do you make the league stronger though?

I think it actually has become a lot stronger in recent years.
It's taken very seriously now.
Genuine fans know it's probably the best football they'll see all year.
As Seanie said, if you take that format and stick it in the middle of summer, there would be massive levels of interest, across all divisions.
People are actively looking for things to do when the weather is good, particularly events where they can bring the whole family along.
Regular home games would do an awful lot to get kids interested and develop that sense of connection.
If you were any use you'd be playing.

magpie seanie

Quote from: Farrandeelin on March 15, 2018, 12:39:25 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 15, 2018, 12:34:14 PM
Play it at the same time of year as the championship, like the FA Cup and League.  Seed championship draws based on previous years League placing.

And extend the players unavailability to the clubs? And those who propose letting junior champions into senior semis/quarters, does that not defeat the tiered approach? To re-insert Rossfan's club championship argument, how many counties allow junior teams a pathway to win senior championships?

I'd argue that this is different and that's what a new solution is warranted but if I'm not wrong....junior, intermediate and senior clubs play in the divisional senior championships in Kerry...isn't that right?